What kind of country is australia?
-
Mike Mullikin wrote: I agree that assault rifles are "over the top", but what about normal hunting rifles and shotguns? I agree that Uzis and other exotic machine guns are "too much" but what about a small caliber pistol to defend your home against robbers? You choose your line, we'll choose ours. That's fine. I agree. You arm everyone and hope that no-one gets nervous and shoots someone by accident, and we'll make sure people don't have guns to shoot each other with. It's pretty much a given that if guns are freely available, anyone who breaks into your home will have one. That is not the case here. Mike Mullikin wrote: Christian Graus wrote: Are you sayng that bail is never imposed in the US in an amount the defendant cannot afford ? All criminal prosecutions are speedily resolved ? Those are individual cases of rights being violated not unconstitutional laws being made. Completely different circumstances. So some items in the consitution are upheld and others are not ? Mike Mullikin wrote: Although I personally don't smoke and don't see much of a purpose in it, the folks that "do" smoke obviously see a purpose. I believe they enjoy it even though it's killing them slowly. So "their enjoyment" is it's purpose. Now before you start ranting about this, think about it. I like to drink. Sometimes to excess. It certainly isn't good for me or my liver. While intoxicated, I could certainly hurt someone else, either by assault or by driving drunk. Should alcohol be banned? We tried that here in the 1920's. It failed miserably. I don't drink or smoke at all, but I would certainly defend your freedom to do both, so long as in both cases it does not affect me. Mike Mullikin wrote: As for your crack about Australians having half a brain... yeah, I'd agree. Which puts us ahead by about 7/16's over people who think that letting people drive a car is the same as letting them pack heat, doncha think ? Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: So some items in the consitution are upheld and others are not ? That wasn't my point. My point was that if someone is denied bail or imprisoned without a speedy trial, that person's rights are being violated and they have a course of action available to them to protest. As opposed to a government making a law (banning guns) that "legally" takes the rights of everyone away. ****Christian Graus wrote: Which puts us ahead by about 7/16's over people who think that letting people drive a car is the same as letting them pack heat, doncha think ? Why can't you read between the lines? I didn't imply that driving a car is the same as using a gun. I just find it humourous when people use the argument that guns need to be banned because X number of people were killed by guns last year. Yet X * 1000 people were killed in automobile crashes in the same year and nobody is screaming about banning them. Here in the US the common age to start driving legally is 16 years old. A 16 year old is still a child. Not old enough to legally smoke, drink, vote or join the military, yet we sit them in a 2 ton piece of steel capable of moving at 100+ mph on 2 lane roads less than 20 feet wide. Yeah, a car is designed for transportation, not for killing like a gun, but at least a teenager knows that a gun is used for killing and takes it seriously. Do you know how many teens are killed or crippled in car crashes due to carelessness? It's obvious that you do not like guns and feel that nobody should be able to own one. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. All I would say is: Be careful how many rights and freedoms you give away, sooner or later they are gonna take away one that you do care about and you won't have the means to stop them. (NO, I don't mean that you could/would use guns to stop them, it was just a general statement completely non-gun related.)
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
-
****Christian Graus wrote: So some items in the consitution are upheld and others are not ? That wasn't my point. My point was that if someone is denied bail or imprisoned without a speedy trial, that person's rights are being violated and they have a course of action available to them to protest. As opposed to a government making a law (banning guns) that "legally" takes the rights of everyone away. ****Christian Graus wrote: Which puts us ahead by about 7/16's over people who think that letting people drive a car is the same as letting them pack heat, doncha think ? Why can't you read between the lines? I didn't imply that driving a car is the same as using a gun. I just find it humourous when people use the argument that guns need to be banned because X number of people were killed by guns last year. Yet X * 1000 people were killed in automobile crashes in the same year and nobody is screaming about banning them. Here in the US the common age to start driving legally is 16 years old. A 16 year old is still a child. Not old enough to legally smoke, drink, vote or join the military, yet we sit them in a 2 ton piece of steel capable of moving at 100+ mph on 2 lane roads less than 20 feet wide. Yeah, a car is designed for transportation, not for killing like a gun, but at least a teenager knows that a gun is used for killing and takes it seriously. Do you know how many teens are killed or crippled in car crashes due to carelessness? It's obvious that you do not like guns and feel that nobody should be able to own one. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. All I would say is: Be careful how many rights and freedoms you give away, sooner or later they are gonna take away one that you do care about and you won't have the means to stop them. (NO, I don't mean that you could/would use guns to stop them, it was just a general statement completely non-gun related.)
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: All I would say is: Be careful how many rights and freedoms you give away, sooner or later they are gonna take away one that you do care about and you won't have the means to stop them. (NO, I don't mean that you could/would use guns to stop them, it was just a general statement completely non-gun related.) In the absence of the link to guns, this makes no sense. No-one is taking *any* of my freedoms away, so it's a non-issue. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
Richard Stringer wrote: Illogical by what or who's standards ? I will not go into the founding fathers view on why the right to bear arms is sancosect and central to the Constitution as I am sure that all the relevant details can be ascertained by anyone interested. I looked - the origins of the idea appear to be British. Richard Stringer wrote: The function of a Gov. should be at best minimalist in removing ANY personal freedoms. The consequences of a steady drain on the indiviuals right to make descisions and live with the results of said descisions can be seen today in Europe and from what I have seen in these enlightening missives Australia also. So you support the right of the Induh-vidual to buy a gun and kill people ? I don't see any other way to read this. My government would deny me the right to arm myself unnecessarily, and to take reasonable steps to prevent me from killing someone, be it because they invade my home, or because I'm nervous in a bus stop late at night, the other person looks a bit rough, and I make a wrong assumption. Richard Stringer wrote: Bash us ( The US ) if you must but first please look at how our country has managed to muddle thru in spite of an antiquated constitution, a plethora of weapons, and the old fashioned idea that Liberty and Freedom is central to what we as a nation are determined to be. I'm not looking to bash anyone, but the above statement is pathetic. You're building up a straw man to knock it down. I do not deny that the US has done and does great things ( and some pretty shabby ones, but I think you're ahead on aggregate ). I don't see liberty or freedom defended by the arming of the populace. You think if the government wanted to control you that their arsenal would fold in the sight of your rifles ? Do you think that your rifle is more of an issue to a potential invader than the billions of dollars worth of hardware your army/navy/air force could bring to bear before anyone got within cooee of the US ? Richard Stringer wrote: but do you not find it funny that you can find no real stats on how many crimes/deaths are PREVENTED because someone had a weapon ? Close to none in Australia, at least in this century. Such things are hard to quantify, in any case. Richard Stringer wrote: you can probably go thru several lifetimes without needing one but if you ever do need one there is nothing els
Richard Stringer wrote: ( 357 S&W Model 19 6" barrel and laser sights ) Personally, I'm not insecure about my penis size... Christian Thats the reason for the laser sights Christian, to hit little penis's. Makes it a whole lot more fun. Don't worry about the barrel size S&W makes a 3" model for export to countries who don't want to be overwhelmed. Richard PS: This is getting a bit on the far side is it not:) If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar
-
****Christian Graus wrote: Personally, I'm not insecure about my penis size... But if you start to become insecure I know where you can get some magic pills. :-D Michael Martin Australia mmartin@netspace.net.au "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Michael Martin wrote: But if you start to become insecure I know where you can get some magic pills. Believe it or not, I wrote this *before* that popup entered my previously unenlightened life. :-) ( Yes, it *is* 4.00 am here. I woke up early and decided to keep working through d/l the platform SDK ). Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
Richard Stringer wrote: ( 357 S&W Model 19 6" barrel and laser sights ) Personally, I'm not insecure about my penis size... Christian Thats the reason for the laser sights Christian, to hit little penis's. Makes it a whole lot more fun. Don't worry about the barrel size S&W makes a 3" model for export to countries who don't want to be overwhelmed. Richard PS: This is getting a bit on the far side is it not:) If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar
Richard Stringer wrote: PS: This is getting a bit on the far side is it not Yeah, the penis comment was obviously a little childish - I tend to get a bit fired up. It's obvious that there is a huge cultural divide between us on this issue, because some of the most intelligent people I know seem to me to become idiots in the comments they make about gun ownership. We may as well be speaking different languages, there is no chance of us reaching agreement. Perhaps I should learn to stop bringing this one up. But I doubt I will - I'm not that smart. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
Mike Mullikin wrote: All I would say is: Be careful how many rights and freedoms you give away, sooner or later they are gonna take away one that you do care about and you won't have the means to stop them. (NO, I don't mean that you could/would use guns to stop them, it was just a general statement completely non-gun related.) In the absence of the link to guns, this makes no sense. No-one is taking *any* of my freedoms away, so it's a non-issue. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: No-one is taking *any* of my freedoms away, so it's a non-issue. I guess the difference is that. You don't own a gun and you don't like guns so it doesn't matter?! What's next? A complete ban on tobacco products? Sounds reasonable... they provide no benefit except to kill. Ban them! Christian doesn't smoke, so who cares? What's next? A complete ban on alcohol. Sounds reasonable... bad for your liver... people do more bad things while drunk than sober. Ban them! Christian doesn't drink, so who cares? At this point Australia is walking a fairly puritanical road. A bunch of organized prudes get together and organize a ban on certain books. Starts off with Hustler magazine and Playboy, then old Henry Miller novels, pretty soon the Harry Potter series. Christian doesn't read that stuff, so who cares? Next, they start forcing specific religious beliefs of the general public. Everyone has to be Anglican Christians. No Muslims, no Jews, no Catholics, no athiests. Everyone MUST attend every service. Christian likes church, so who cares? Get my point? Pretty soon you won't even know how to protest. You become sheep. I for one want more out of my life and more for my children than to be sheep.
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
-
In my mind, the whole argument is wrong. We shouldn't be arguing about whether guns should be used, but whether they should even be made in the first place. Someone sat down and designed a object which is for killing. I think there is something wrong with the sort of person who would actually do that. Kevin
Kevin Glover wrote: We shouldn't be arguing about whether guns should be used, but whether they should even be made in the first place. That's what I've been thinking while reading this entire thread. The world would be a much nicer place for my family and I if there was a worldwide enforced ban on the manufacture of firearms. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen. J
-
****Christian Graus wrote: No-one is taking *any* of my freedoms away, so it's a non-issue. I guess the difference is that. You don't own a gun and you don't like guns so it doesn't matter?! What's next? A complete ban on tobacco products? Sounds reasonable... they provide no benefit except to kill. Ban them! Christian doesn't smoke, so who cares? What's next? A complete ban on alcohol. Sounds reasonable... bad for your liver... people do more bad things while drunk than sober. Ban them! Christian doesn't drink, so who cares? At this point Australia is walking a fairly puritanical road. A bunch of organized prudes get together and organize a ban on certain books. Starts off with Hustler magazine and Playboy, then old Henry Miller novels, pretty soon the Harry Potter series. Christian doesn't read that stuff, so who cares? Next, they start forcing specific religious beliefs of the general public. Everyone has to be Anglican Christians. No Muslims, no Jews, no Catholics, no athiests. Everyone MUST attend every service. Christian likes church, so who cares? Get my point? Pretty soon you won't even know how to protest. You become sheep. I for one want more out of my life and more for my children than to be sheep.
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
What a huge pile of bull. WE never HAD the 'freedom' to arm ourselves to the teeth. The majority in Australia supported removing the 'right' for the minority to own weapons whose sole purpose was to allow the killing of lots of people in a short timeframe. As I said before, no-one is remotely suggesting banning tobacco or alcohol. The steps you propse beyond that are even more laughable and unlikely. You're simply showing the religious indoctrination that all Americans have - if they take away our ability to own automatic weapons, it proves that we're headed for Stalinist Russia. Get a grip on reality. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
What a huge pile of bull. WE never HAD the 'freedom' to arm ourselves to the teeth. The majority in Australia supported removing the 'right' for the minority to own weapons whose sole purpose was to allow the killing of lots of people in a short timeframe. As I said before, no-one is remotely suggesting banning tobacco or alcohol. The steps you propse beyond that are even more laughable and unlikely. You're simply showing the religious indoctrination that all Americans have - if they take away our ability to own automatic weapons, it proves that we're headed for Stalinist Russia. Get a grip on reality. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: As I said before, no-one is remotely suggesting banning tobacco or alcohol. The steps you propse beyond that are even more laughable and unlikely. It's been my experience that politicians/governments are like weeds. If you give them an inch they will take a mile. In my humble opinion you gave them an inch. Time will tell how much farther they go. ****Christian Graus wrote: You're simply showing the religious indoctrination that all Americans have - if they take away our ability to own automatic weapons, it proves that we're headed for Stalinist Russia. Get a grip on reality. I never cease to be amazed that so many non-Americans seem to think they know everything about the US and it's people. Maybe it's our television and/or our movies. Either way, it's just not real it's entertainment. Should I assume that all Australians are like Paul Hogan?
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
-
****Christian Graus wrote: As I said before, no-one is remotely suggesting banning tobacco or alcohol. The steps you propse beyond that are even more laughable and unlikely. It's been my experience that politicians/governments are like weeds. If you give them an inch they will take a mile. In my humble opinion you gave them an inch. Time will tell how much farther they go. ****Christian Graus wrote: You're simply showing the religious indoctrination that all Americans have - if they take away our ability to own automatic weapons, it proves that we're headed for Stalinist Russia. Get a grip on reality. I never cease to be amazed that so many non-Americans seem to think they know everything about the US and it's people. Maybe it's our television and/or our movies. Either way, it's just not real it's entertainment. Should I assume that all Australians are like Paul Hogan?
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: It's been my experience that politicians/governments are like weeds. If you give them an inch they will take a mile. In my humble opinion you gave them an inch. Time will tell how much farther they go. We don't trust our politicians either, but we don't assume we need to arm ourselves against them, or that their vision of society is so fundamentally different from ours. Why would they WANT to ban tobacco or alcohol when they make a fortune taxing them ? The whole point of a two party system is if one party had the unusual desire to impose the sort of censorship you suggested, the other would win in a landslide. There is no basis for a change of that magnitude that does not reflect the will of the people, it simply couldn't happen. Mike Mullikin wrote: I never cease to be amazed that so many non-Americans seem to think they know everything about the US and it's people. Maybe it's our television and/or our movies. Either way, it's just not real it's entertainment. Should I assume that all Australians are like Paul Hogan? Search the forums for the word 'gun'. All I know about people in the US I learned on this forum, not by watching the Brady Bunch. To the degree to which Michael, Chris, myself and any other Aussies here talk like Paul Hogan, you would be forgiven for assuming we were like him. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now