The Culture Of Life
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Fisticuffs wrote: You have no right to an opinion on this case. Nobody does. I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Mike Gaskey wrote: I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Well, actually, since you seem to have such strong beliefs and are doing absolutely nothing about them, you're already on par with the 'good' germans who did nothing about it. In fact, you're a little bit worse, since you CLEARLY BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT KNOW that what's going on is EVIL and you're doing nothing about it. Unless you count bitching on the internet as 'action.' Way to keep to those convictions, skippy! Once again: Your opinion on this case is worthless because you haven't seen all the evidence.
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Mike Gaskey wrote: I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Well, actually, since you seem to have such strong beliefs and are doing absolutely nothing about them, you're already on par with the 'good' germans who did nothing about it. In fact, you're a little bit worse, since you CLEARLY BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT KNOW that what's going on is EVIL and you're doing nothing about it. Unless you count bitching on the internet as 'action.' Way to keep to those convictions, skippy! Once again: Your opinion on this case is worthless because you haven't seen all the evidence.
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K(arl) wrote: Or don't you respect the decisions of your judicial system? Isn't his husband his legal representant? The judge in this case is supporting euthanasia, and no I don't respect it. K(arl) wrote: did this woman expressed any will on her situation? According to her husband, yes. According to her family and childhood best friend, no - as a matter of fact she said she wouldn't want this to happen to her. K(arl) wrote: A lethal injection would be more appropriate. Nah, let's just fire up the ovens. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
K(arl) wrote: Or don't you respect the decisions of your judicial system? Mike Gaskey wrote: The judge in this case disagrees with me, so no I don't respect it.
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Audioscrobbler :: flikrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
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Fisticuffs wrote: You have no right to an opinion on this case. Nobody does. I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
What would you do if trying to save Terri put your wifes life on immediate risk?
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
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Fisticuffs wrote: Why do you even feel qualified to pass judgement on this case without hearing the evidence? The evidence I see is a husband with a new (common law)wife and two children who suddenly remembered that his first wife didn't want to live this way (after he took nursing courses to help her live this way) and denied her any therapy, even to the extent of demanding the television not be turned on so all forms of stimulation were denied. This, contrasted with parents and siblings who want her to live and would care for her. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Mike Gaskey wrote: even to the extent of demanding the television not be turned on so all forms of stimulation were denied Well, now, I would say that the stimulation from TV would only lead to further brain death! (Sorry to make a macabre joke out of this subject. I hope no one is truly offended). Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing YAPO
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Jim Crafton wrote: There is also her family to consider as well, isn't there? No. US laws favor the spouse. Her family had to make a case of his incompetence if they wanted control. They failed. Only her husband (not the law) needs to consider her families feelings and they his. Their opinions are diametrically opposed, hence the 8 year legal fight. Jim Crafton wrote: Honestly, I don't have a clue what the "right" answer is, or if there even is one. Put yourself in Terri's position and the "right" answer becomes crystal clear. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Put yourself in Terri's position and the "right" answer becomes crystal clear. If all I could do was to occaisionally follow a baloon with my eyes, my constant wish would be somebody...please...PULL THE F***ING PLUG! is this the 'crystal clear' you had in mind? Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Put yourself in Terri's position and the "right" answer becomes crystal clear. If all I could do was to occaisionally follow a baloon with my eyes, my constant wish would be somebody...please...PULL THE F***ING PLUG! is this the 'crystal clear' you had in mind? Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I disagree. In order to be "killed" one must be truly alive. Human life is defined by self awareness. Lacking awareness for 15+ years is a pretty good indication that she's already dead - only her brain stem doesn't know it. First, there are many who question whether she was, in fact, that far gone. The husband was an ass, at least, for not letting another test or two be done. Second, her family, not including the husband, felt she was capable of some responsiveness. Their concerns should have been given more credence. I bow to the legal decisions, but the court's refusal to be more responsive to their pleas is pathetic. Medical science has been wrong before and could have been wrong about Terri. Lastly, we are skating onto very thin ice when we arbitrarily decide what represents "truly alive". If she had 10% more brain functioning would she have been truly alive? 20%? Where is the line? I think the fact that she needed only food and water to survive, just as you and I do, is as good a metric for being truly alive as any other. I think it is always best to err on the side of life and continue to insist that she is being killed. If the death is necessary than it is necessary, but it should not be minimized to make us all feel more comforable about it. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: Second, her family, not including the husband, felt she was capable of some responsiveness. Their concerns should have been given more credence. Every single expert who has examined her says they are NOT responses - only reflexs. How many experts must agree before the parents understand? Stan Shannon wrote: If the death is necessary than it is necessary, but it should not be minimized to make us all feel more comforable about it. Nor should it be prolonged artificially out of selfish denial and hopeless prayers. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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What would you do if trying to save Terri put your wifes life on immediate risk?
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenpeterchen wrote: What would you do if trying to save Terri put your wifes life on immediate risk? Not that I agree with Mr. Gaskey's analogy but... name a single national revolution where a great number of people didn't put their lives and their families lives in danger. History is full of such people. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Chris Losinger wrote: "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead." Irrespective of your opinion of Randall Terry, I take it you approve of the murder of Terri Shiavo. Does this square with your opinions on capital punishment? Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
You've been sucking the right-wing tit a little too long, Mikey; your brains are scrambled. Nobody is murdering Terry Schiavo. Her brain has been dead for over a decade. She's been hooked to machines to keep her alive for all that time; her husband wants to honor her wishes and let her body die. As we all do, eventually. Didja know that Tom Delay did the same thing for his dad, a few years back? No? I didn't think so; FOX hasn't mentioned that.
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Chris Losinger wrote: "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead." Irrespective of your opinion of Randall Terry, I take it you approve of the murder of Terri Shiavo. Does this square with your opinions on capital punishment? Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
How do you murder someone who is already brain dead ? Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Why would that motivate him to want to pull Terri's feeding tube? What do you imagine his motivation is? Pretty difficult to care for a severely handicapped wife while trying to provide for another family, don't you think? Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Bollocks. She's in a hospital, attached to tubes. She took no effort at all to care for. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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This is Randall Terry[^]:
"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."
So what?
“Our family asked Randall Terry to come, and we gave him carte blanche to put Terri’s fight in front of the American people,” Schindler [Terri Shiavo's father] said. “He did exactly what we asked, and more. Randall organized vigils and protests, he coordinated the media, he helped us meet with Governor Bush.”
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It is a fundamental basis of the Christian religion (and as far as I know all religions) that God gives us life that we may live with purpose. Has this woman been living a life of purpose for the last 15 years? I personally do not think so. Her medical condition is a result of her own actions. Was she living the life of purpose God intended for her when she puked herself into a cardiac arrest? That is not for me or anyone else to say. That is something she will have to answer for to her God. She's not my family so I cannot say whether she should be maintained on a feeding tube or not. But something I feel very strongly about is the media sensationalism. The courts have ruled, the tube has been removed. The decisions have been made. It's done. The press should allow the woman to die in peace. It is appalling. Especially how they constantly reiterate that the woman is starting to look like a concentration camp victim. Well guess what? People die daily of starvation, but we don't want to see that on the evening news, or hold protests, or petition our lawmakers. With the exception of heart attacks, violent deaths, and accidents, the big killer of most people is cancer. And people that die of cancer almost invariably look like a concentration camp victim before they die. What makes this so different? It's simple - the agendas of other people who have no real personal stake or interest other than their own. Wouldn't the world be a better place if these same people cared as much about children dying of starvation as they do about one woman who has been brain dead for 15 years? But this issue gets camera time, news coverage, and that is what these people really are all about. The media puts a slant on the story that makes it seem like no one has been in this condition since Auschwitz. The reality is that this is a natural part of the natural death of millions of people. People die like this every day. If they keep Terri Schiavo on a feeding tube for the rest of her life, chances are she'll still die looking like she was in Auschwitz. I'm glad I understand the difference between the realities of life and death, as opposed to believing it is the same as the image of this sensationalist nauseating shit the media spews at us daily. My father died a couple of years ago of spinal cancer. He was 6'1" and when he died he weighed less than 60 pounds. I saw him on Easter. The next Friday I got the call that he had slipped into a coma. (I thank God we had been able t
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It is a fundamental basis of the Christian religion (and as far as I know all religions) that God gives us life that we may live with purpose. Has this woman been living a life of purpose for the last 15 years? I personally do not think so. Her medical condition is a result of her own actions. Was she living the life of purpose God intended for her when she puked herself into a cardiac arrest? That is not for me or anyone else to say. That is something she will have to answer for to her God. She's not my family so I cannot say whether she should be maintained on a feeding tube or not. But something I feel very strongly about is the media sensationalism. The courts have ruled, the tube has been removed. The decisions have been made. It's done. The press should allow the woman to die in peace. It is appalling. Especially how they constantly reiterate that the woman is starting to look like a concentration camp victim. Well guess what? People die daily of starvation, but we don't want to see that on the evening news, or hold protests, or petition our lawmakers. With the exception of heart attacks, violent deaths, and accidents, the big killer of most people is cancer. And people that die of cancer almost invariably look like a concentration camp victim before they die. What makes this so different? It's simple - the agendas of other people who have no real personal stake or interest other than their own. Wouldn't the world be a better place if these same people cared as much about children dying of starvation as they do about one woman who has been brain dead for 15 years? But this issue gets camera time, news coverage, and that is what these people really are all about. The media puts a slant on the story that makes it seem like no one has been in this condition since Auschwitz. The reality is that this is a natural part of the natural death of millions of people. People die like this every day. If they keep Terri Schiavo on a feeding tube for the rest of her life, chances are she'll still die looking like she was in Auschwitz. I'm glad I understand the difference between the realities of life and death, as opposed to believing it is the same as the image of this sensationalist nauseating shit the media spews at us daily. My father died a couple of years ago of spinal cancer. He was 6'1" and when he died he weighed less than 60 pounds. I saw him on Easter. The next Friday I got the call that he had slipped into a coma. (I thank God we had been able t
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Fisticuffs wrote: You have no right to an opinion on this case. Nobody does. I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
No, it places you on par with everyone who is spoon fed by the mass media and feels the right to base an opinion on their biased drivel. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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K(arl) wrote: I thought the US justice decided it wasn't a murder? Regardless of my opinion as to whether it's murder or not, I do have the opinion that this isn't something the government should decide. This is something that we have do be guided on based on our own ethics and beliefs. Which, of course, opens up a can of worms when two people have different ethics, hence we seek "the law". What really should have happened, IMO, and what is much, much harder, is for the husband and the family to come to a concensus based on their ethics rather than seeking a court decision. If anything, that is all that the law should have demanded--that she stays on life support until the family and the husband can reach a consensus. The other question, regarding how others feel about the matter based on their own ethics, is, to some extent, immaterial. If it weren't for the media, we wouldn't know about this. I'm not saying ignorance is bliss or condones the actions of others, but I do think that part of ones code of ethics is to recognize that our personal ethics should not always be inflicted on others. We need to respect the decisions that other people make in these challenging situations. Yes, it's still a can of worms, but how strangers can have an opinion about whether it's murder or not is beyond me. Therefore, in my thinking, the decision should be reached by the people that know her and have lived close to her. The ethics of a stranger should be such that they allow for the people close to her to decide what is right, in freedom. Conversely, their decision should not be applied to anyone else. It is, I believe, a matter for the people involved to decide, not strangers. And I for one do not believe that the people involved could not reach consensus. It's difficult beyond imagining, but I think we have done a great disservice to all involved by not supporting this process. Then again, I have no idea how much effort was actually put into reaching a consensus. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing YAPO
Got my 5, not least for being the first person to visibly consider the situation instead of making a knee jerk reaction based on where they go on Sunday and who they vote for. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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peterchen wrote: What would you do if trying to save Terri put your wifes life on immediate risk? Not that I agree with Mr. Gaskey's analogy but... name a single national revolution where a great number of people didn't put their lives and their families lives in danger. History is full of such people. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: name a single national revolution where a great number of people didn't put their lives and their families lives in danger East Germany, 1989 Maybe we were naive, but the risk seemed negligible. Of course we talked about the possibilities that the russians "do something". Of course, there were scary moments. Of course, this wouldn't have been possible without a few people risking their lives and their families for years before (but nowhere near the perceived and actual risk of the 3rd Reich). But that was not my question. My question was very simple, and very specific. I was not about revolutions, or people. Would you put your wife in danger, trying to save Terri? ---------------- I know of someone's father, station master at Posen, which was a major deportation transshipment station. There is no way he didn't know the cattle waggons, crowded, going only one way. He never told his family. Not a single word. I can't blame him. Do you?
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
It is a fundamental basis of the Christian religion (and as far as I know all religions) that God gives us life that we may live with purpose. Has this woman been living a life of purpose for the last 15 years? I personally do not think so. Her medical condition is a result of her own actions. Was she living the life of purpose God intended for her when she puked herself into a cardiac arrest? That is not for me or anyone else to say. That is something she will have to answer for to her God. She's not my family so I cannot say whether she should be maintained on a feeding tube or not. But something I feel very strongly about is the media sensationalism. The courts have ruled, the tube has been removed. The decisions have been made. It's done. The press should allow the woman to die in peace. It is appalling. Especially how they constantly reiterate that the woman is starting to look like a concentration camp victim. Well guess what? People die daily of starvation, but we don't want to see that on the evening news, or hold protests, or petition our lawmakers. With the exception of heart attacks, violent deaths, and accidents, the big killer of most people is cancer. And people that die of cancer almost invariably look like a concentration camp victim before they die. What makes this so different? It's simple - the agendas of other people who have no real personal stake or interest other than their own. Wouldn't the world be a better place if these same people cared as much about children dying of starvation as they do about one woman who has been brain dead for 15 years? But this issue gets camera time, news coverage, and that is what these people really are all about. The media puts a slant on the story that makes it seem like no one has been in this condition since Auschwitz. The reality is that this is a natural part of the natural death of millions of people. People die like this every day. If they keep Terri Schiavo on a feeding tube for the rest of her life, chances are she'll still die looking like she was in Auschwitz. I'm glad I understand the difference between the realities of life and death, as opposed to believing it is the same as the image of this sensationalist nauseating shit the media spews at us daily. My father died a couple of years ago of spinal cancer. He was 6'1" and when he died he weighed less than 60 pounds. I saw him on Easter. The next Friday I got the call that he had slipped into a coma. (I thank God we had been able t
rwestgraham wrote: He died quietly Sunday morning, I was holding one hand, my sister was holding the other. :rose::rose: Regards,
Agni. -
How do you murder someone who is already brain dead ? Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
A little correction, she's actually not 'braindead', she's in a vegetative condition which is a world of difference. Not that I disagree that pulling the plug is the right decision. But in Denmark, braindeath is legally considered real death. The victim will not feel any difference though, as a vegetative condition means, that all the emotional and cognitive centers are dead. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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It is a fundamental basis of the Christian religion (and as far as I know all religions) that God gives us life that we may live with purpose. Has this woman been living a life of purpose for the last 15 years? I personally do not think so. Her medical condition is a result of her own actions. Was she living the life of purpose God intended for her when she puked herself into a cardiac arrest? That is not for me or anyone else to say. That is something she will have to answer for to her God. She's not my family so I cannot say whether she should be maintained on a feeding tube or not. But something I feel very strongly about is the media sensationalism. The courts have ruled, the tube has been removed. The decisions have been made. It's done. The press should allow the woman to die in peace. It is appalling. Especially how they constantly reiterate that the woman is starting to look like a concentration camp victim. Well guess what? People die daily of starvation, but we don't want to see that on the evening news, or hold protests, or petition our lawmakers. With the exception of heart attacks, violent deaths, and accidents, the big killer of most people is cancer. And people that die of cancer almost invariably look like a concentration camp victim before they die. What makes this so different? It's simple - the agendas of other people who have no real personal stake or interest other than their own. Wouldn't the world be a better place if these same people cared as much about children dying of starvation as they do about one woman who has been brain dead for 15 years? But this issue gets camera time, news coverage, and that is what these people really are all about. The media puts a slant on the story that makes it seem like no one has been in this condition since Auschwitz. The reality is that this is a natural part of the natural death of millions of people. People die like this every day. If they keep Terri Schiavo on a feeding tube for the rest of her life, chances are she'll still die looking like she was in Auschwitz. I'm glad I understand the difference between the realities of life and death, as opposed to believing it is the same as the image of this sensationalist nauseating shit the media spews at us daily. My father died a couple of years ago of spinal cancer. He was 6'1" and when he died he weighed less than 60 pounds. I saw him on Easter. The next Friday I got the call that he had slipped into a coma. (I thank God we had been able t
I couldn't have said it better myself. I watch the news when I can and what shocks me the most is not what the reporters present but how they present it. This case is a family matter, regardless of the outcome. Daniel E. Blanchard