I got "let go"
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Shog9 wrote: Every employer has that kind of uncertainty, whether they want it or not Of course. But telling them that it "might happen" does nothing but increase the uncertainty. In other words, the best you could expect as an employee is to be treated worse than normal. If you "might" be leaving soon, why would you get an extra bonus? Why would you get promoted? Why would they send you to Disneyland for the next big conference? The employer got absolutely no advantage here. They can't integrate a new team member because they don't know if or when he will leave. Shog9 wrote: they've pretty much ensured no-one else will give notice until they're getting ready to walk out the door Which is exactly what they, as an employer, would expect in the first place. Shog9 wrote: Unless you can put yourself in the place of his employer and admit you'd have done the same (lie to him and then fire him), I don't see where he lied. He thanked him for telling him - he didn't say that by telling him it assured his position at the company would never be touched. That leaves the company in another precarious position: now that he has told them he "might" leave, they can't lay him off without being accused of using that information as the reason. Maybe they decided to make changes at the company and his job would have been gone regardless. An employee loses by telling his/her employer something like this. If an employee wants to be nice they can give extra notice when they actually WILL be leaving. "Might" doesn't help anyone. Heck, I "might" win the lottery and quit next week. I "might" close my tech. company and start a cattle ranch. I "might" become ruler of the universe. I don't think telling anyone these things is going to help them. On the other hand "I will be closing my company and starting a cattle ranch in three months" gives my employees something concrete they can count on and make decisions with. Consider this 'flip-side' scenario: Employer: "We might move our office from Disneyland to Timbuktu in a few months." Employees: All start looking for, and find, new jobs. Employer: All ticked off because everyone left, even though they haven't even decided if or when they will move the office. I don't really see the difference, but I'm guessing employees would look at this and say "well, what did the employer expect? He said they might move the office." (Sorry for the verbose responses - I'm
Drew Stainton wrote: But telling them that it "might happen" does nothing but increase the uncertainty. In other words, the best you could expect as an employee is to be treated worse than normal. If you "might" be leaving soon, why would you get an extra bonus? Why would you get promoted? Why would they send you to Disneyland for the next big conference? Well, yeah, i can understand not paying the guy extra or sending him on vacation. Shouldn't be any reason he can't do his work though. Drew Stainton wrote: An employee loses by telling his/her employer something like this. In Richard's case, absolutely. In my case, not at all. That was my point - it depends on who you're working for. Obviously, if your employer does not value you, then they will ditch you at the first sign of trouble. Of course, employers who don't value their programers often get shitty, late, expensive software as a result... Nothing like bringing in a new team to work on a half-finished project to completely run it into the ground. Drew Stainton wrote: Consider this 'flip-side' scenario: Well, what's the alternative: Employer (who might be moving to Timbuktu): "Nothing is happening, there are no plans to relocate." Employees: "Great! Let's all buy houses!" Employer: "Ok, we're relocating to Timbuktu - anyone care to move?" Employees: "No, you bastard, we can't move, and now we have to sell our kidneys to make house payments!" :rolleyes: Drew Stainton wrote: (Sorry for the verbose responses - I'm on a bit of a roll today) Why does this feel like a Friday... :)
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
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Shog9 wrote: The response is always "dog-eat-dog, be more cynical next time" - great advice i'm sure, but what a way to live! Sorry, that sincerely was not my intention (you know I am an optimistic even naive chap.) Shog9 wrote: But i certainly see a good number of posts on CP and elsewhere telling stories like this Well... 91.27% of us are employees and not bosses. I often read these rants and wonder what really went down, what the boss would have to say if he was on the forum. Employees can be utter bastards too. I want a more balanced take on the whole employer-employee relationship. Bosses sit in one corner and mutter about employees while employees sit in the other corner and bemoan their lot in life. If you only sit in one of the corners you can be forgiven for thinking the other side is an evil, plotting and heartless lot. Both sides, like you say, need to step up to the plate and improve matters rather than just slagging the other off. regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
Paul Watson wrote: I want a more balanced take on the whole employer-employee relationship. I would never want to be an employer. I forget where I was reading, but there was some comment about who could work their entire life as an employee and never want to move up to management? Well that is me. I might if requested to, but I would have to seriously consider it. I have been a manager for a very short time, too young, too naive. I had to hire someone who took too many advantages of the company, and I had to fire him. Although I can run over my mind that it had to be done, I still hated doing it. And know my failure in not seeing it. Although I can blame that on my youth, or my employer for giving me the responsibility (though he had little choice, we had to fire the DP manager for "creative accounting" -- I was the only person in the whole company who know how the software worked). Still, I have no desire even almost 17 years later, give me state of the art graphics tasks and I am happy. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Yup, definitely a rant as your boss did the right and proper thing and you are just bummed they did not play to your schedule. When you first told him it was the same as saying you were no longer committed to the company, right from then. The company would think it is not only useless but also costly to carry on investing in you. Better to find a replacement, which is probably what they were doing for the last 5 months, and invest in him. Your ex-boss is an OK guy, he didn't hand you your notice as you walked out of that first meeting. He has a job to do too remember. The company has a goals to meet. Team-members who are leaving at some unknown but soon date are a liability. How do they plan based on "few" and "several"? And I say all of this having been in the same situation but from the boss' perspective. It is very frustrating trying to be nice to employees who are quitting while trying to keep projects on-track. It is sad to see invested resources leaving your team too. In a nut-shell; It works both ways. Look after yourself just as the company is looking after itself. regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
I was however not abandoning the project I was in. My commitment to the project is what has kept me working there until Monday. My boss also knew that I was planning on staying until the end of the project. Now that I am gone they have no one to complete the project, which, is now impossible to complete seeing as I was the only developer on it and was correcting his design mistakes as I went. -Richard
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For sure, that is a reasonable request. I hope all bosses try to do that. I assume this chap also got his one month notice period, so he is not in an unfair position right now. regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
Nope, I didn't get a one month or two week notice, I was ask to leave the building and they told me they would mail my personal effects to my house. -Richard
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Drew Stainton wrote: But telling them that it "might happen" does nothing but increase the uncertainty. In other words, the best you could expect as an employee is to be treated worse than normal. If you "might" be leaving soon, why would you get an extra bonus? Why would you get promoted? Why would they send you to Disneyland for the next big conference? Well, yeah, i can understand not paying the guy extra or sending him on vacation. Shouldn't be any reason he can't do his work though. Drew Stainton wrote: An employee loses by telling his/her employer something like this. In Richard's case, absolutely. In my case, not at all. That was my point - it depends on who you're working for. Obviously, if your employer does not value you, then they will ditch you at the first sign of trouble. Of course, employers who don't value their programers often get shitty, late, expensive software as a result... Nothing like bringing in a new team to work on a half-finished project to completely run it into the ground. Drew Stainton wrote: Consider this 'flip-side' scenario: Well, what's the alternative: Employer (who might be moving to Timbuktu): "Nothing is happening, there are no plans to relocate." Employees: "Great! Let's all buy houses!" Employer: "Ok, we're relocating to Timbuktu - anyone care to move?" Employees: "No, you bastard, we can't move, and now we have to sell our kidneys to make house payments!" :rolleyes: Drew Stainton wrote: (Sorry for the verbose responses - I'm on a bit of a roll today) Why does this feel like a Friday... :)
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Shog9 wrote: Shouldn't be any reason he can't do his work though. I agree. That's what I mean by he loses. Even if he didn't get laid off his work environment would suffer for having told them. Shog9 wrote: it depends on who you're working for I guess, but assuming your employer will be extra nice to you just because you did something you 'thought' was nice is a mistake: they may not think it was nice at all - that's his assumption. Shog9 wrote: Employer (who might be moving to Timbuktu): "Nothing is happening, there are no plans to relocate." Life sucks sometimes, don't it? I went through a similar scenario myself 3 years ago. We were told, after many rumours, that the impending lay-offs wouldn't impact our office. Several employees bought houses, cars etc. during the next several months and then we found out that all but 12 (out of 59) got the boot (including me). That was after moving the office from what was a 15 minute commute to a 45 minute commute for most of the employees (which is why they bought new houses). The remaining employees were moved back close to the original location - so it sucked whether they were laid off or not. Anyway, the end result is that anytime you get the heave-ho it just plain sucks. I don't think anything really helps except finding a new job. Shog9 wrote: Why does this feel like a Friday... No kidding. I haven't gotten anything done today at all... Cheers, Drew.
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I was however not abandoning the project I was in. My commitment to the project is what has kept me working there until Monday. My boss also knew that I was planning on staying until the end of the project. Now that I am gone they have no one to complete the project, which, is now impossible to complete seeing as I was the only developer on it and was correcting his design mistakes as I went. -Richard
Richard Parsons wrote: Now that I am gone they have no one to complete the project, which, is now impossible to complete seeing as I was the only developer on it and was correcting his design mistakes as I went. I can't obviously comment on your specific situation. What I do know though is that this is what I think of as another 'fatal flaw' of a lot of employees: they think they're irreplaceable. Fact is most employees will be replaced and their projects figured out within a very short period of time. A bit depressing and a shock to the ol' ego, perhaps, but that's the way it is. On a side note, sorry to hear about your situation. My comments here are really a generalization of your situation. I don't mean to imply that you did anything wrong. Nobody knows what happened, or what it feels like except you. Regardless of viewpoint, it must suck to be told you are being laid off after thinking you were helping them out. Hope things go well for you! Cheers, Drew.
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Yup, definitely a rant as your boss did the right and proper thing and you are just bummed they did not play to your schedule. When you first told him it was the same as saying you were no longer committed to the company, right from then. The company would think it is not only useless but also costly to carry on investing in you. Better to find a replacement, which is probably what they were doing for the last 5 months, and invest in him. Your ex-boss is an OK guy, he didn't hand you your notice as you walked out of that first meeting. He has a job to do too remember. The company has a goals to meet. Team-members who are leaving at some unknown but soon date are a liability. How do they plan based on "few" and "several"? And I say all of this having been in the same situation but from the boss' perspective. It is very frustrating trying to be nice to employees who are quitting while trying to keep projects on-track. It is sad to see invested resources leaving your team too. In a nut-shell; It works both ways. Look after yourself just as the company is looking after itself. regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
Agreed Paul, I've been on both sides of this. Elaine :rose: PS Can't stay away can you ? ;) The tigress is here :-D
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Yup, definitely a rant as your boss did the right and proper thing and you are just bummed they did not play to your schedule. When you first told him it was the same as saying you were no longer committed to the company, right from then. The company would think it is not only useless but also costly to carry on investing in you. Better to find a replacement, which is probably what they were doing for the last 5 months, and invest in him. Your ex-boss is an OK guy, he didn't hand you your notice as you walked out of that first meeting. He has a job to do too remember. The company has a goals to meet. Team-members who are leaving at some unknown but soon date are a liability. How do they plan based on "few" and "several"? And I say all of this having been in the same situation but from the boss' perspective. It is very frustrating trying to be nice to employees who are quitting while trying to keep projects on-track. It is sad to see invested resources leaving your team too. In a nut-shell; It works both ways. Look after yourself just as the company is looking after itself. regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
having been on both sides of this situation myself I have to agree. As a boss, you want to feel like you are investing in the people who will make you and them successful. If someone is leaving, then it's really hard to invest anything in them. I'm not just losing the investment I've already made in them, I'm losing the institutional knowledge that they have in what we've been working on. Expecting a manager to be ok with that is just not realistic. You have to see it from both sides.
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Well I use to think my boss was an ok guy. He even took the news well when I told him I might have to leave in a few months back in December. He thanked me for letting him know and told me to give him some warning if I decided I would have to go. I told him I would give him several months notice before any decision was made but apparently he went and wined to the HR Lady and Monday they told me they no longer needed my assistance. So like I said I use to think he was an ok guy until he went and did that, he could have at least shown me the courtesy of giving me some warning... Anyway, that's my rant for the day. -Richard
Richard Parsons wrote: He even took the news well when I told him I might have to leave in a few months back in December. Well, it's now May - 6 months - so they did give you enough time (though they didn't explicitly tell you, they must have started looking for an alternative employee the moment you told them you'd leave in a few months). Nish p.s. Most bosses are just that - bosses - it's risky trying to treat them as friends. There are some exceptions though :-)
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Nope, I didn't get a one month or two week notice, I was ask to leave the building and they told me they would mail my personal effects to my house. -Richard
But you are getting paid for two weeks or one month still, yes? regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
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Well I use to think my boss was an ok guy. He even took the news well when I told him I might have to leave in a few months back in December. He thanked me for letting him know and told me to give him some warning if I decided I would have to go. I told him I would give him several months notice before any decision was made but apparently he went and wined to the HR Lady and Monday they told me they no longer needed my assistance. So like I said I use to think he was an ok guy until he went and did that, he could have at least shown me the courtesy of giving me some warning... Anyway, that's my rant for the day. -Richard
In the UK there are laws against that assuming you have worked for your employer for 2 years, I think it is now 1 year. He has to have grounds to dismiss you. I believe the compensation you can get is unlimmited by going to an Empoyment Tribunal.
"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you do know and what you don't." - Anatole France
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But you are getting paid for two weeks or one month still, yes? regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
No, no pay other than my last week of pay which I worked for.
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No, no pay other than my last week of pay which I worked for.
OK I apologise, that is very wrong then. To just drop you like that after you had been honest with them is wrong. What kind of contract where you on that did not have a notice period? regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
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OK I apologise, that is very wrong then. To just drop you like that after you had been honest with them is wrong. What kind of contract where you on that did not have a notice period? regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
It was a state job, they said it was for secuity reasons that I could not be notified anymore than that. I wouldn't have complained so much if they would have given me a month notice or pay :) -Richard