George Bush vows to block funding for stem cell research
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Generally this moral evaluation comes when considering each application of the science not in the research of the basic science. If anyone believes that stem cell research involves harvesting of live, viable embryos they are seriously delusional. Stan Shannon wrote: why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Not a bad idea considering the current state of our world and societies... :~ ;P "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: If anyone believes that stem cell research involves harvesting of live, viable embryos they are seriously delusional. Well, I suppose I'm seriously delusional then. Dead, non-viable embryos have living, viable stem cells? How does that work? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Stan Shannon wrote: I find it amazing that the left seems to have lost the ability to evaluate the morality of scientific progress. The left is in favour of medical research, while the right is spending money to research putting guns in the sky[^]. Whose morality are you questioning?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
That kind of makes my point. If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. Why worry about the morality of either one? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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That kind of makes my point. If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. Why worry about the morality of either one? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. I disagree. To me, this is like saying that giving someone an aspirin for a headache or punching them in the head are equally legitimate forms of social interaction. Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. * Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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If every scientific advancement was stifled due to concerns about how the new knowledge "might" be abused, humans would still be hiding in caves. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Humans never hid in caves. We lived in them and then went out and killed anything edible. The rest I agree with - to a point. We should do basic research on stem cells. However President Bush has a moral disagreement with this. He has never hid that and is acting on his own moral judgement. Can't argue with that. America will be in the forefront of stem cell research eventually but I do not see it as the panacea that others do. At present it is just one of several good areas or research. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Humans never hid in caves. We lived in them and then went out and killed anything edible. The rest I agree with - to a point. We should do basic research on stem cells. However President Bush has a moral disagreement with this. He has never hid that and is acting on his own moral judgement. Can't argue with that. America will be in the forefront of stem cell research eventually but I do not see it as the panacea that others do. At present it is just one of several good areas or research. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
Richard Stringer wrote: We lived in them and then went out and killed anything edible. ...using tools developed by our "science" (spears, arrows, slings) that if/when abused can do bad things. We didn't worry about it then and I suggest we not do so now. Without the tools, we would have been hiding in those caves. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Stan Shannon wrote: If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. I disagree. To me, this is like saying that giving someone an aspirin for a headache or punching them in the head are equally legitimate forms of social interaction. Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. * Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. In a word - bullshit. If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act. Again - bullshit. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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JoeSox wrote: Then why is he going to veto the bill From the second article: Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Is he referring to that line waaay back there on the horizon? :rolleyes:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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JWood wrote: Reagan's Alzheimer's disease could have been helped by stem cell research. In theory. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Actually quite a lot of successfull experiments has been performed on rats. But all the fuss from people thinking this is black magic has put a severe break in human projects. By the way, time is running from US and Europe, in this area anyway, a couple of days ago Japanese scientists announced that they've succeeded cloning stem cells. It means that stem cells can be cloned from a patients body, eliminating the risk of the immune system reacting hostile to the cells. [edit]Oh, just discovered that it was south-korean scientists that made the breakthrough.[/edit] "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. In a word - bullshit. If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act. Again - bullshit. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
Richard Stringer wrote: Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape Fantastic groundbreaking new science you got there, have you thought of publishing it? If aggression and violence were the path to 'thinking', then nearly all the bloody gnats, rodents and whatnot on this earth would be sipping lattes discussing Kafka. "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm guessing because he feels that certain stem cell research would not be "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." I don't personally agree with him, but I can read entire sentences. "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." This is the same President that decided to start a War. This President needs to get his shit together imo. He obviously does not trust the scientific community. I guess in his mind he is displaying political courage. Maybe he doesn't have trust that the government will be giving funding to the correct research. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
Well said! -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.
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JoeSox wrote: Then why is he going to veto the bill From the second article: Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Shog9 wrote: Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear. He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
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Mike Mullikin wrote: If anyone believes that stem cell research involves harvesting of live, viable embryos they are seriously delusional. Well, I suppose I'm seriously delusional then. Dead, non-viable embryos have living, viable stem cells? How does that work? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Do you find research on amoebas unethical as well? -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.
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Stan Shannon wrote: And if we didn't evalutate the morality of every advance in science that might benefit humanity we might well be performing experiments on some convenient minority population (aside from embryos, I mean). If we are to be utterly unconcerned about the morality of science, why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Why not? It would be another victory for capitalism! Stan Shannon wrote: "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom." <--- SEE!!!
:laugh: -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.
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Well said! -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Well said! I don't know I just question the guy's rationale sometimes. He seems to be big on hypocrisy but then what politician isn't? Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: An eye for an eye will only make the world blind. A tooth for a tooth will make the denture manufacturing business boom. :) Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. In a word - bullshit. If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act. Again - bullshit. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
Richard Stringer wrote: If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. It's difficult to be violent and intelligent at the same time. Scientists are among the mosts intelligent people and I can't think of any who were particularly violent. Curiosity is what made us thinking apes. Richard Stringer wrote: Again - bull****. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Woah there -- who said there was going to be a battle?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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Looks like Europe will be getting ahead of the States in another new technological/medical breakthrough area... ;P
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
Yep for 5 minutes. Then Bush goes, the next US President passes it, and the US starts atracting foreign experts in the field, as they are happy to pay 5-10 times the salary they would get back home! The US will always be ahead in Science until other governments start funding Science properly. No chance of that happening here in the UK any time soon.
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Richard Stringer wrote: If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. It's difficult to be violent and intelligent at the same time. Scientists are among the mosts intelligent people and I can't think of any who were particularly violent. Curiosity is what made us thinking apes. Richard Stringer wrote: Again - bull****. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Woah there -- who said there was going to be a battle?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
Daniel R Ferguson wrote: It's difficult to be violent and intelligent at the same time Its very helpful actually. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Curiosity is what made us thinking apes. Hmmm. Curiosity is a hallmark of Hominidae but that is true of all the members of the Genus. A hallmark of Sapiens is tool making. Almost every primitive tool is a weapon. As intelligence increased the sophistication of the weapons increased. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Scientists are among the mosts intelligent people and I can't think of any who were particularly violent. Leroy Trailerpark Jones did not invent the A Bomb. Thats a cliche but weapon research/war is the greatest incentive to invention that we have ever known. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Woah there -- who said there was going to be a battle? There won't be if we hold an overwelming superiority. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Stan Shannon wrote: And if we didn't evalutate the morality of every advance in science that might benefit humanity we might well be performing experiments on some convenient minority population (aside from embryos, I mean). If we are to be utterly unconcerned about the morality of science, why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Why not? It would be another victory for capitalism! Stan Shannon wrote: "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom." <--- SEE!!!
5 / :laugh:
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
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Richard Stringer wrote: Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape Fantastic groundbreaking new science you got there, have you thought of publishing it? If aggression and violence were the path to 'thinking', then nearly all the bloody gnats, rodents and whatnot on this earth would be sipping lattes discussing Kafka. "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
jan larsen wrote: Fantastic groundbreaking new science you got there, have you thought of publishing it? Na - I'll let you do it. You are so well versed on the subject ( and probably every other subject ). There is an old expression you should peruse in your spare time. "Put brain in gear before putting mouth in motion". Richard Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a [person] does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses their intelligence. --Albert Einstein So long as there are men there will be wars --Albert Einstein "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." etc..... Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Richard Stringer wrote: We lived in them and then went out and killed anything edible. ...using tools developed by our "science" (spears, arrows, slings) that if/when abused can do bad things. We didn't worry about it then and I suggest we not do so now. Without the tools, we would have been hiding in those caves. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Without the tools, we would have been hiding in those caves Without the tools we would never have needed those caves. We would still be in Africa swinging thru them trees :) Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown