George Bush vows to block funding for stem cell research
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Shog9 wrote: Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear. He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Perhaps not http://www.remember.org/educate/medexp.html[^] Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Is he referring to that line waaay back there on the horizon? :rolleyes:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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Stan Shannon wrote: If we are to be utterly unconcerned about the morality of science, why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Get serious! what we need is a few hundred thousand clones with genetically enhanced stupidity, so we can run the show...and never run short of burger flippers. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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Stan Shannon wrote: morality of scientific progress If we constrained scientific progress based upon morality, I think the mail would be still be delivered by horses. :) Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Remember that in Texas, Gun Control is hitting what you aim at. [Richard Stringer] Nice sig! [Tim Deveaux on Matt Newman's sig with a quote from me]
Chris Meech wrote: If we constrained scientific progress based upon morality, I think the mail would be still be delivered by horses. If we had considered the morality of abusing horses to deliver the mail, we might have discovered a better method much sooner. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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Shog9 wrote: Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear. He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: He is stupid. Maybe so, but i agree with him on this one. Wish he would take a stance for preserving life in more situations... :sigh: JoeSox wrote: It is for research. Research! Meh. Quite a bit of research out there that i could care less about. And a bit more that, even if i cared, i wouldn't want to pay for. Obviously, some research should be publicly funded, as the results would be for the public good... but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
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JoeSox wrote: He is stupid. Maybe so, but i agree with him on this one. Wish he would take a stance for preserving life in more situations... :sigh: JoeSox wrote: It is for research. Research! Meh. Quite a bit of research out there that i could care less about. And a bit more that, even if i cared, i wouldn't want to pay for. Obviously, some research should be publicly funded, as the results would be for the public good... but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Shog9 wrote: ...but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability. :confused: When it comes to stem cell research I've never heard a soul question the desirability of the potential results. Cures for Alzhiemers, Parkinsons disease, spinal cord injuries to name a few. The conflict centers on the means... not the end. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Well said! I don't know I just question the guy's rationale sometimes. He seems to be big on hypocrisy but then what politician isn't? Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: An eye for an eye will only make the world blind. A tooth for a tooth will make the denture manufacturing business boom. :) Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: but then what politician isn't? A politician is a business man. He collects monies to be ellected to provide monies to those who got him ellected. If someone who was in the medical business provided him money, they would get his vote, not a veto. If a president goes around giving out "free votes" on issues, how would he get businesses to fund an office that requires 750 million to ellect into office? Next year ellection it will cost near a billion, next over a billion, the only way to do that is hold the line. Give money to your benefactors, restrict it to non-donors. That is how it has been done for decades, it just costs more each time and requires more promises and more "holding the line" to get the message that they have to give to receive. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I find it amazing that the left seems to have lost the ability to evaluate the morality of scientific progress. Do we tolerate embryo factories in order to keep every old fart on the planet alive for every possible last nano-second of mortal existence? You don't have to be a religious zealot to appreciate the moral quandry of this kind of research. I also do not necessarily agree with Bush, but I am glad there are people asking these kinds of quesitons. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: Do we tolerate embryo factories in order to keep every old fart on the planet alive for every possible last nano-second of mortal existence? You don't have to be a religious zealot to appreciate the moral quandry of this kind of research. The president has never restricted such actions, only said that it must be done with commercial monies, not government monies. There is no one asking those questions, only providing them as an excuse. Government supported research is restricted, commercial companies are free to do everything, exactly what you describe. The difference is they do not have to tell you what they do or how they are doing it, and they are allowed to profit by it, and they do not have to compete with Universities that take government money -- so they are able to make MORE money from it. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Shog9 wrote: ...but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability. :confused: When it comes to stem cell research I've never heard a soul question the desirability of the potential results. Cures for Alzhiemers, Parkinsons disease, spinal cord injuries to name a few. The conflict centers on the means... not the end. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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"GEORGE BUSH: I believe America must pursue the tremendous possibilities of science, and I believe we can do so while still fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1376788.htm[^] House defies Bush over stem cell bill http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1491535,00.html[^] Then why is he going to veto the bill if he wants America to pursue the "tremendous possibilities of science"?:confused: Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
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Stan Shannon wrote: Do we tolerate embryo factories in order to keep every old fart on the planet alive for every possible last nano-second of mortal existence? You don't have to be a religious zealot to appreciate the moral quandry of this kind of research. The president has never restricted such actions, only said that it must be done with commercial monies, not government monies. There is no one asking those questions, only providing them as an excuse. Government supported research is restricted, commercial companies are free to do everything, exactly what you describe. The difference is they do not have to tell you what they do or how they are doing it, and they are allowed to profit by it, and they do not have to compete with Universities that take government money -- so they are able to make MORE money from it. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: The difference is they do not have to tell you what they do or how they are doing it, and they are allowed to profit by it, and they do not have to compete with Universities that take government money -- so they are able to make MORE money from it. stem cell research is still pretty new, so the kind of research that needs to be done is the kind of stuff that is more likely to be done in universities; private companies don't do as much pure research (not directed specifically towards product generation) as universities do. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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"GEORGE BUSH: I believe America must pursue the tremendous possibilities of science, and I believe we can do so while still fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1376788.htm[^] House defies Bush over stem cell bill http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1491535,00.html[^] Then why is he going to veto the bill if he wants America to pursue the "tremendous possibilities of science"?:confused: Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: Then why is he going to veto the bill if he wants America to pursue the "tremendous possibilities of science"? He's playing the politician's popularity-game :-)
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm guessing because he feels that certain stem cell research would not be "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." I don't personally agree with him, but I can read entire sentences. "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." This is the same President that decided to start a War. This President needs to get his shit together imo. He obviously does not trust the scientific community. I guess in his mind he is displaying political courage. Maybe he doesn't have trust that the government will be giving funding to the correct research. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." This is the same President that decided to start a War. "life" is short for Anglo Saxon nominally Christian American life. Didn't you break his code yet ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: The difference is they do not have to tell you what they do or how they are doing it, and they are allowed to profit by it, and they do not have to compete with Universities that take government money -- so they are able to make MORE money from it. stem cell research is still pretty new, so the kind of research that needs to be done is the kind of stuff that is more likely to be done in universities; private companies don't do as much pure research (not directed specifically towards product generation) as universities do. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote: private companies don't do as much pure research you mean like pet cloning being done now, or human cloning for fertility reasons (that I have no doubt will be done, it simply will be hidden until the child matures)? Use of stem cells to grow tissue for sales? Cryo-cell is the largest commercial U-cord stem cell storage and marketing company for blood from stem-cells; StemCell International uses adult stem cells so that they can receive government and private contribution, but looking forward to extending research. There is another Stem cell company to hit IPO soon. Chemicon Int. and others. The 21 new lines of stem cells requested in the bill to be added to the list of approved stem cell lines come from corporate stem cell research rather than government assissted which is why they exist while there was a ban on new line creation from any company receiving government monies. Very few of those 21 are from the states, but they are corporate interest created. Corporations may not do as much "pure research" but there is a lot of money for the company who can find cures for some things. And billions to be made if we can cheat death. The ban on new lines of stem cells did not prevent their creation, just prevented their creation or use with government money. They still exist, and more will exist. I personally prefer U-cord stem cells or adult stem cells, but I would say there are quite a few companies that are interested in stem cells. Fetal stem cells are just easier to use and grow and therefore cheaper, and easier to make profit. Which is exactly why they are desired so much, and why we have new lines to use. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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JoeSox wrote: He is stupid. Maybe so, but i agree with him on this one. Wish he would take a stance for preserving life in more situations... :sigh: JoeSox wrote: It is for research. Research! Meh. Quite a bit of research out there that i could care less about. And a bit more that, even if i cared, i wouldn't want to pay for. Obviously, some research should be publicly funded, as the results would be for the public good... but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Shog9 wrote: Maybe so, but i agree with him on this one. I did too at first until I did some more thinking and research into it. Shog9 wrote: but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability. I believe the government pumps money into research is for longterm economic growth and global market gain for America. South Korea is ahead of us in this field because of the Bush ban. Just imagine if the government didn't fund NASA research or defense department research. This is a breaking field that could actually help reduce medical costs in the long run, is one way of looking at it. It's research not actually products that can be banned properly. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
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jan larsen wrote: Fantastic groundbreaking new science you got there, have you thought of publishing it? Na - I'll let you do it. You are so well versed on the subject ( and probably every other subject ). There is an old expression you should peruse in your spare time. "Put brain in gear before putting mouth in motion". Richard Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a [person] does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses their intelligence. --Albert Einstein So long as there are men there will be wars --Albert Einstein "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." etc..... Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
Richard Stringer wrote: Na - I'll let you do it. You are so well versed on the subject ( and probably every other subject ). There is an old expression you should peruse in your spare time. "Put brain in gear before putting mouth in motion". Seeing that you've chosen not to put your brain in gear before putting your mouth in motion I assume that you've discovered a flaw in the idea, so I think I'll pass :-) "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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I find it amazing that the left seems to have lost the ability to evaluate the morality of scientific progress. Do we tolerate embryo factories in order to keep every old fart on the planet alive for every possible last nano-second of mortal existence? You don't have to be a religious zealot to appreciate the moral quandry of this kind of research. I also do not necessarily agree with Bush, but I am glad there are people asking these kinds of quesitons. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
I think a couple of people just twitch-voted when they saw your name. Stan Shannon wrote: I also do not necessarily agree with Bush, but I am glad there are people asking these kinds of quesitons. That is the crux of your arguement and I agree with it. Ask the tough questions. regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Gary Wheeler wrote: It's people like you that keep me heading for my big debut on CNN...
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Do you find research on amoebas unethical as well? -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Do you find research on amoebas unethical as well? I never said I found any of the researdh unethical. However, I do find the comparison of a human embryo to an amoeba to be based on questionable and dangerous ethics. If I can ethically experiment on an embryo because it is comparable biological to an amoeba, why can I not ethically experiment on a 2 month old baby because it is less advanced physically and mentally than most animals are at that stage of life - a lab rat for example. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Stan Shannon wrote: If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. I disagree. To me, this is like saying that giving someone an aspirin for a headache or punching them in the head are equally legitimate forms of social interaction. Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. * Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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And some people find experimentation on a human life, at any stage of development, to be immoral. Why is your morality superior to theirs? Because yours is secular and theirs is religious? Has it come down to that? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Do you find research on amoebas unethical as well? I never said I found any of the researdh unethical. However, I do find the comparison of a human embryo to an amoeba to be based on questionable and dangerous ethics. If I can ethically experiment on an embryo because it is comparable biological to an amoeba, why can I not ethically experiment on a 2 month old baby because it is less advanced physically and mentally than most animals are at that stage of life - a lab rat for example. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Because a 2 month old baby can think (although the brain capacity is limited), an amoeba can't. Nor can a stem cell. -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.