Is Codeproject getting soft?
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Hello Bob, You made some nice points and I will wish to comment too. > There has been a decrease in the quality and quanitity of > the technical posts, but I certainly don't blame Chris. Definitely, Chris is from the very start defined the limit of this site, and I am personally not surprised by the current outcome--this is how far we it can go. > Also, I think most of the common MFC problems have been > solved in either CodeProject or Code Guru. After all, how > many different "MFC color choosers" do we need? That is right :-) What is needed is to use these code snippets to build a lot of solution that developers can drop into their projects and bingo. However, Chris killed this efforts with his copyright issues. No one has ever authored copyrights more than Chris in the MFC domain. A resizable dialog class was released, and I gave it 5 points for the author made it free, just to find out next release will be copyrighted not for commercial applications. Why will I waste time on this? and how many dialog classes will one need in an application, to do say resizing, help, expansion etc. Make an efforts to combine the functionality provided by the various dialogs classes and see how you will be limited by the copyrights. So the results is, it is not possible to provide any solution from codes on this site. If, however, it is only for code snippets, then codeguru is still a much bigger source of code. Personally, I know what the MFC programmers need are solutions like the Stas library, which continues to gain more users everyday because there is no license restriction to its use. Take the crystal editor, the copyright kept it from growing. The author now cannot use classes written by others to enhance it. I have being making the efforts but it is simply not easy. Some submitting the enhancement codes also wish to have the "...parts by..." appended, and they are right, since original author also insisted on this why not them? > The posts are submitted by people like myself and if we > aren't submitting, then there will be no posts. Actually, before one submit codes now or even sit down to write article, you will have to try and justify the time. If it is really worth it. If the codes here do not help you solve a problem why boader to waste time submitting one! Chris did a lot of work on the grip code, but he was not the original author, and many helped to build it up. Now, you have no right to use the codes on any site without his permission--why do I have to send mine to his sit
Paul - All my code is free to be used however you want to use it. My only piece of code that I had any restrictions on was the grid, but when I moved that to CodeProject I made it totally free for use however you want - all I ask is that people don't try and sell the source for profit, and don't claim that the grid is theirs. >>Chris did a lot of work on the grip code, but he was not the original author, and many helped to build it up. Now, you have no right to use the codes on any site without his permission What on earth are you talking about?? cheers, Chris Maunde
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Hello Bob, You made some nice points and I will wish to comment too. > There has been a decrease in the quality and quanitity of > the technical posts, but I certainly don't blame Chris. Definitely, Chris is from the very start defined the limit of this site, and I am personally not surprised by the current outcome--this is how far we it can go. > Also, I think most of the common MFC problems have been > solved in either CodeProject or Code Guru. After all, how > many different "MFC color choosers" do we need? That is right :-) What is needed is to use these code snippets to build a lot of solution that developers can drop into their projects and bingo. However, Chris killed this efforts with his copyright issues. No one has ever authored copyrights more than Chris in the MFC domain. A resizable dialog class was released, and I gave it 5 points for the author made it free, just to find out next release will be copyrighted not for commercial applications. Why will I waste time on this? and how many dialog classes will one need in an application, to do say resizing, help, expansion etc. Make an efforts to combine the functionality provided by the various dialogs classes and see how you will be limited by the copyrights. So the results is, it is not possible to provide any solution from codes on this site. If, however, it is only for code snippets, then codeguru is still a much bigger source of code. Personally, I know what the MFC programmers need are solutions like the Stas library, which continues to gain more users everyday because there is no license restriction to its use. Take the crystal editor, the copyright kept it from growing. The author now cannot use classes written by others to enhance it. I have being making the efforts but it is simply not easy. Some submitting the enhancement codes also wish to have the "...parts by..." appended, and they are right, since original author also insisted on this why not them? > The posts are submitted by people like myself and if we > aren't submitting, then there will be no posts. Actually, before one submit codes now or even sit down to write article, you will have to try and justify the time. If it is really worth it. If the codes here do not help you solve a problem why boader to waste time submitting one! Chris did a lot of work on the grip code, but he was not the original author, and many helped to build it up. Now, you have no right to use the codes on any site without his permission--why do I have to send mine to his sit
Paul said: "That is right What is needed is to use these code snippets to build a lot of solution that developers can drop into their projects and bingo." Come on Paul, that doesn't make any sense. No credible organization is going allow code to go into their applications that comes from someone who doesn't warrant their ownership of the intellectual property. Anyone that is using "free" code from either CP or CG is exposing themselves to risks that just aren't worth it. And there is no way that Chris could provide any warranty on the ownership of the code, even if he wanted to. So I think this whole issue is Much Ado About Nothing. Professional developers don't use unwarranted "free" code in their applications... period! Gordy
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Sorry for the delay in replying to this - I've got the flu and feel like crap at the moment. CodeProject is a site for developers like you and me. It's not an online version of MSDN. I started this site simply because I wanted a place where developers could share their experiences in learning and help others who were just beginning. If you want the best technical information on windows development then there are thousands of books out there that are far more convenient to read and learn from than CodeProject. If you want to feel part of a real community, meet others, have your code praised / criticised / improved then CodeProject is the place to be. I am trying to build a place that is fun to hang out at, and a place where there is no "them and us" mentality. I want to try and bring "industry" (ie Microsoft, DevelopMentor etc) and "developers" (us!) together - since in the end the two are one and the same. The site is you. It's what you guys make it. Everything is open, everything can be commented on, and everyone can have their say. If you want more techinical articles then send stuff in and this will encourage others. If there are bits you don't like then don't read them - or send in suggestions how they can be improved. This is pretty much a one-man show so some suggestions will take a while to be implemented - but I am working my ass off for you guys to give you something you enjoy. Help me to help you. cheers, Chris Maunde
Well, maybe I'm a little biased, but I love what Chris has put together here. I'm also very happy that CodeGuru have picked up their socks, but I'll bet you that would never have happened if CodeProject didn't show up. :) Overall, I look at CodeProject as the VC++ community, not just a code repository. I like to cruise in a couple of times a day and see what's happening in the lounge, and I actually have started using the little news window at the bottom of the homepage too. Despite the fact that I know most of the people who've been interviewed very well, I still love to read them. I think most people are missing the point of the Interviews, which bring the big-wigs of the industry front and center, and let you, the CP views set the agenda. I think Chris' approach with this is excellent, and I also think we're not using the opportunity. Matt, the Win32 GOD shows up, and only a handful of people ask questions. Chris, the ATL/Scripting GOD shows up, and the only questions that get asked are personal. The concerned developer who launched this thread complained about a lack of technical relevance, but he we were the ones asking the questions! Did the concerned developer post any technical ATL questions? If we want this to be better, then as Chris says, we have to make it better. I also really enjoyed Chris' synopsis of the Redmond trip. I think it's very likely that the 99% of people who come here are quite keen on finding out more about the Microsoft life. I was on the trip with Chris and even I couldn't wait to see what he was going to put in the next installment. I think the homepage needs a little more focus than it currently has, and like everyone else I'd like to see more articles contributed. So, let's as a community scratch up some code samples and make some postings. Chris has even made it so you can post articles immediately through the submission wizard so you don't have to wait forever to see your work up!
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Is it only me or is everyone as well feeling that Codeproject is increasingly getting political and simply is a accumulating more "fluff" that's not really hot? Lots of interviews, discussions, information on trips to Redmond....etc...these are fine, but I think Codeproject's overdoing it. Not good for Codeproject's health. Even the BIG interviews (apparently with Matt Pietrek, Chris Sells) don't have enough meat. It's all about how life is, what's up in the interviewee's life, etc. Codeproject is first and foremost a DEVELOPER SITE. If people want fun stuff and a lot of chatter, there are other places to do it. Don't get me wrong, I am just getting concerned at the way things are going. In the meantime, I guess Codeproject's rival web site, CodeGuru, has surpassed Codeproject in terms of quality. It looked like at one time Codeproject was providing increasingly quality content, and I am sure everyone will agree. But in a relatively short time, CodeGuru has become a major player again, with high quality stuff-they don't have all this gossip and blah blah in their site; they simply are a hard core Developer site. I know I am going to attract some flak for this, but please, this is simply my opinion-I am wondering if anyone else feels the same way I do.... Thanks and have a nice day
Seems to me that it's the job of us the CodeProject community to post the code samples, etc. The CodeProject management's job, as I see it, is simply to provide an attractive home for others' contributions---to make it easy to search for what we want and to share our comments and ratings. When I go to CodeGuru, I see lots of headlines about their guest columns, but when I want to see how to do something new---a few weeks ago I needed to find out FAST how to work with a serial-port interface---it's simpler to find what I want in CodeProject than anywhere else I hang out. Similarly, it's easier to browse the code samples and projects and to see on the front door page what's new in the code section. CP is doing fine by me. One side benefit of the "fluff" is that in the reader feedback to the Redmond visit, Microsoft got an earful from inveterate whiners like me about what we don't like about their developer products, which I love and hate. I haven't seen anywhere else the kind of direct response from MS project leads that we got in the comment sections to Chris's report. If MS learns something from the flamefest over templates on CP that it doesn't get from its conventional market research, then CP has provided an extremely useful service to MS and to all of us
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Paul - All my code is free to be used however you want to use it. My only piece of code that I had any restrictions on was the grid, but when I moved that to CodeProject I made it totally free for use however you want - all I ask is that people don't try and sell the source for profit, and don't claim that the grid is theirs. >>Chris did a lot of work on the grip code, but he was not the original author, and many helped to build it up. Now, you have no right to use the codes on any site without his permission What on earth are you talking about?? cheers, Chris Maunde
Chris, Nice to hear from you. > What on earth are you talking about?? Can you explain this part? However, this file and the accompanying source code may not be hosted on a website or bulletin board without the authors written permission. Anyway, speedy recovery. Paul.
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Hello Bob, You made some nice points and I will wish to comment too. > There has been a decrease in the quality and quanitity of > the technical posts, but I certainly don't blame Chris. Definitely, Chris is from the very start defined the limit of this site, and I am personally not surprised by the current outcome--this is how far we it can go. > Also, I think most of the common MFC problems have been > solved in either CodeProject or Code Guru. After all, how > many different "MFC color choosers" do we need? That is right :-) What is needed is to use these code snippets to build a lot of solution that developers can drop into their projects and bingo. However, Chris killed this efforts with his copyright issues. No one has ever authored copyrights more than Chris in the MFC domain. A resizable dialog class was released, and I gave it 5 points for the author made it free, just to find out next release will be copyrighted not for commercial applications. Why will I waste time on this? and how many dialog classes will one need in an application, to do say resizing, help, expansion etc. Make an efforts to combine the functionality provided by the various dialogs classes and see how you will be limited by the copyrights. So the results is, it is not possible to provide any solution from codes on this site. If, however, it is only for code snippets, then codeguru is still a much bigger source of code. Personally, I know what the MFC programmers need are solutions like the Stas library, which continues to gain more users everyday because there is no license restriction to its use. Take the crystal editor, the copyright kept it from growing. The author now cannot use classes written by others to enhance it. I have being making the efforts but it is simply not easy. Some submitting the enhancement codes also wish to have the "...parts by..." appended, and they are right, since original author also insisted on this why not them? > The posts are submitted by people like myself and if we > aren't submitting, then there will be no posts. Actually, before one submit codes now or even sit down to write article, you will have to try and justify the time. If it is really worth it. If the codes here do not help you solve a problem why boader to waste time submitting one! Chris did a lot of work on the grip code, but he was not the original author, and many helped to build it up. Now, you have no right to use the codes on any site without his permission--why do I have to send mine to his sit
Copyright means that the person who wrote the code has intellectual ownership of the code - it doesn't mean no one else can use it. Everyone who posts here is effectively placing their code in the Public Domain - hence it can be used. All copyright does is say "The author wrote it - don't pretend that YOU wrote it". Why are you always complaining Paul
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Paul said: "That is right What is needed is to use these code snippets to build a lot of solution that developers can drop into their projects and bingo." Come on Paul, that doesn't make any sense. No credible organization is going allow code to go into their applications that comes from someone who doesn't warrant their ownership of the intellectual property. Anyone that is using "free" code from either CP or CG is exposing themselves to risks that just aren't worth it. And there is no way that Chris could provide any warranty on the ownership of the code, even if he wanted to. So I think this whole issue is Much Ado About Nothing. Professional developers don't use unwarranted "free" code in their applications... period! Gordy
Gordy, Please can you explain this whole issue of warranty? It seems to me that even MFC does not come with any warranty. From your points, this site is not even necessary, since you the professional developers will not use codes here in the first place, or I'm reading too much into your post? Paul.
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Chris, Nice to hear from you. > What on earth are you talking about?? Can you explain this part? However, this file and the accompanying source code may not be hosted on a website or bulletin board without the authors written permission. Anyway, speedy recovery. Paul.
Hey Paul, Asking that other websites do not post my code on their websites without asking me is completely different from allowing anyone to use my code in their apps. Not many websites are happy to allow you to take their content and post it on their own site. Everyone else who posts their stuff on this site is more than welcome to post their stuff where ever they wish (and many do!) - my personal wish to be asked before my stuff is used on another site is a personal preference and has nothing to do with what anyone else does
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Copyright means that the person who wrote the code has intellectual ownership of the code - it doesn't mean no one else can use it. Everyone who posts here is effectively placing their code in the Public Domain - hence it can be used. All copyright does is say "The author wrote it - don't pretend that YOU wrote it". Why are you always complaining Paul
> Everyone who posts here is effectively placing their code > in the Public Domain - hence it can be used. Please take your time to read through the copyright issues, and do not assume you are leaving in an ideal world. Your view on public domain code is a bit limited. Maybe you might not have realized this, but copyright issues was at the center of the break-way-from-codeguru. > All copyright does is say "The author wrote it - don't > pretend that YOU wrote it". There is nothing wrong with this. Going further with do not use it in commercial applications makes with feel whether the codes should be posted here at all. > Why are you always complaining Paul? Simple, I care about this site and will not just sit to assume everything here is perfect. Does this piss you off? sorry. If EarthWeb has listened to complains at the start of codeguru take over, there will hardly be a need for another MFC site. Paul.
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Gordy, Please can you explain this whole issue of warranty? It seems to me that even MFC does not come with any warranty. From your points, this site is not even necessary, since you the professional developers will not use codes here in the first place, or I'm reading too much into your post? Paul.
Paul CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine tune and expand it. That's fine! But what you really shouldn't do is drop a complete CP component into your application. Why? Because someone else owns the code, but you don't really know who. If I buy a Dundas/Stingray component, they warrant that the code is their intellectual property, and that I can use it under their license agreement. Say Stingray sold a component that included code that belonged to someone else who could legally establish their ownership rights (highly unlikely it would ever happen). Say that person started legal action against me for using their intellectual property. I could go back to Stingray and claim damages based on the fact that they warranted that it was their intellectual property. What if the very same thing happened after using a component from CodeProject (instead of Stingray)? Well no one has given me a warranty about who the legal owner of the code is, so I'd be fully exposed. I'd be liable to damages (if they were legally established) in that situation. That's why it is a bad idea for a developer to use code in their application that doesn't come with a warranty establishing its legal ownership. As for Microsoft... well when you buy VC++/MFC they do warrant that they own the IP, and that you can use it under the terms of the license. But CP and CG, by definition, can not provide any warranties concerning ownership, so therefore, professional developers would be crazy to include these components in a commercial application. Gordy
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Hey Paul, Asking that other websites do not post my code on their websites without asking me is completely different from allowing anyone to use my code in their apps. Not many websites are happy to allow you to take their content and post it on their own site. Everyone else who posts their stuff on this site is more than welcome to post their stuff where ever they wish (and many do!) - my personal wish to be asked before my stuff is used on another site is a personal preference and has nothing to do with what anyone else does
Hello Chris, Nice chip in. > Asking that other websites do not post my code on their > websites without asking me is completely different from > allowing anyone to use my code in their apps. Not many > websites are happy to allow you to take their content and > post it on their own site. I do not think any site is interested in duplicating the work here. Codeguru, the only other MFC code site is got the original codes there, and like this site no one is going about grabbing sources from other sites to post to there. Maybe your target is freeware developers who post their sources over the net. Unfortunately, this personal wish is becoming the personal wishes of others here on this site too, and one could just imagine the number of written permissions needed to post a source to an application.
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Paul CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine tune and expand it. That's fine! But what you really shouldn't do is drop a complete CP component into your application. Why? Because someone else owns the code, but you don't really know who. If I buy a Dundas/Stingray component, they warrant that the code is their intellectual property, and that I can use it under their license agreement. Say Stingray sold a component that included code that belonged to someone else who could legally establish their ownership rights (highly unlikely it would ever happen). Say that person started legal action against me for using their intellectual property. I could go back to Stingray and claim damages based on the fact that they warranted that it was their intellectual property. What if the very same thing happened after using a component from CodeProject (instead of Stingray)? Well no one has given me a warranty about who the legal owner of the code is, so I'd be fully exposed. I'd be liable to damages (if they were legally established) in that situation. That's why it is a bad idea for a developer to use code in their application that doesn't come with a warranty establishing its legal ownership. As for Microsoft... well when you buy VC++/MFC they do warrant that they own the IP, and that you can use it under the terms of the license. But CP and CG, by definition, can not provide any warranties concerning ownership, so therefore, professional developers would be crazy to include these components in a commercial application. Gordy
Hello Gordy, Nice point here. So CP should actually be doing the ff... > CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus > developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine > tune and expand it. That's fine! Then I guess you should be worried too, since you can hardly now find a "free code" to modify, fine tune and expand :-) BTW, Stas library does not satisfy your criteria for warranty, but is being used in many commercial applications. It is really unfortunately, don't you think so? :-)))) Even unfortunate is the fact that components from Dundas/Stingray do not match it in what it does!
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Paul CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine tune and expand it. That's fine! But what you really shouldn't do is drop a complete CP component into your application. Why? Because someone else owns the code, but you don't really know who. If I buy a Dundas/Stingray component, they warrant that the code is their intellectual property, and that I can use it under their license agreement. Say Stingray sold a component that included code that belonged to someone else who could legally establish their ownership rights (highly unlikely it would ever happen). Say that person started legal action against me for using their intellectual property. I could go back to Stingray and claim damages based on the fact that they warranted that it was their intellectual property. What if the very same thing happened after using a component from CodeProject (instead of Stingray)? Well no one has given me a warranty about who the legal owner of the code is, so I'd be fully exposed. I'd be liable to damages (if they were legally established) in that situation. That's why it is a bad idea for a developer to use code in their application that doesn't come with a warranty establishing its legal ownership. As for Microsoft... well when you buy VC++/MFC they do warrant that they own the IP, and that you can use it under the terms of the license. But CP and CG, by definition, can not provide any warranties concerning ownership, so therefore, professional developers would be crazy to include these components in a commercial application. Gordy
G'day Gordy, Is using code from here any different from using code which is printed in a book/magazine? Does my buying the book/magazine offer the same warrenty as a company such as Stingray does? Should we use have any code reuse, or should we just end up making it all up ourselves? Sounds like a productive use of time. Have fun, Paul Westcott
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Hello Gordy, Nice point here. So CP should actually be doing the ff... > CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus > developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine > tune and expand it. That's fine! Then I guess you should be worried too, since you can hardly now find a "free code" to modify, fine tune and expand :-) BTW, Stas library does not satisfy your criteria for warranty, but is being used in many commercial applications. It is really unfortunately, don't you think so? :-)))) Even unfortunate is the fact that components from Dundas/Stingray do not match it in what it does!
Paul I can't explain any better than I already have. CP is a great site for looking at Code. In fact it a great place to for anything except getting code for free, that you then turn around and charge money for. If I take anyone's IP, and the edit it... if the editing is thorough enough there becomes a point where I have now created my own IP. Where that exact line is, in any given situation, is governed by the facts of the situation. I didn't say that **no** developers used unwarranted code in their commercial applications... I said that "professional developers" in "credible companies" didn't use unwarranted code in their application. Do you think Microsoft, HP, and IBM are trolling free posted code areas to include it in their applications? I highly doubt it. So the original point stands. Gordy
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Paul I can't explain any better than I already have. CP is a great site for looking at Code. In fact it a great place to for anything except getting code for free, that you then turn around and charge money for. If I take anyone's IP, and the edit it... if the editing is thorough enough there becomes a point where I have now created my own IP. Where that exact line is, in any given situation, is governed by the facts of the situation. I didn't say that **no** developers used unwarranted code in their commercial applications... I said that "professional developers" in "credible companies" didn't use unwarranted code in their application. Do you think Microsoft, HP, and IBM are trolling free posted code areas to include it in their applications? I highly doubt it. So the original point stands. Gordy
Actually, HP is using the BCG Library (what Paul keeps calling the Stas library, the developer's first name). And it's not like MS is exactly a large producer of apps that use MFC either..
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G'day Gordy, Is using code from here any different from using code which is printed in a book/magazine? Does my buying the book/magazine offer the same warrenty as a company such as Stingray does? Should we use have any code reuse, or should we just end up making it all up ourselves? Sounds like a productive use of time. Have fun, Paul Westcott
Paul Wescott IP issues are not neatly packaged. If I use a snippet from a magazine (or from CP) I'm not likely to run into IP ownership issues. But even then, I'm sure the magazine does address the ownership issue with the author. I highly doubt that DDJ would publish an article of my code, without an agreement whereby I warranted that it was in fact my own code. But notice I also referred to a "component." First, you don't see code for an entire component in a magazine. Second, we are free to use and resuse components that we buy and license from the code owner. Surely you're not suggesting that a professional developer would take code from an anonymous poster (like you find on CP and CG) and use it in a commercial application, without knowing whether the anonymous poster in fact owned the code they posted? I don't think so. I'd never dreaming of using a "free" component in an application unless someone had given me the legal protection I need through an explicit warranty of legal ownership. The risks would be too high! Gordy
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G'day Gordy, Is using code from here any different from using code which is printed in a book/magazine? Does my buying the book/magazine offer the same warrenty as a company such as Stingray does? Should we use have any code reuse, or should we just end up making it all up ourselves? Sounds like a productive use of time. Have fun, Paul Westcott
Oh Gawd, I can't believe I'm getting into this :) Fundamentally, yes, using code from a book or magazine is different than using publicly posted code. Publishers have formalized agreements, and formal reviews of intellectual property and do their best to ensure that the code doesn't infringe on someone else's patent or copyright. I want to be clear that I love this site, and the dynamic that it generates and in no way do I want to cast a shadow over its success. Quite the opposite in-fact. Imagine someone posts a BIFF file reader/writer class to this site, it's used and appreciated by hundreds or thousands of people, and used in tons of applications, maybe some of them big important projects for companies like GM, Ford and AT&T. Later, we all discover that this library in-fact includes some sourcecode stolen from Microsoft or some other source. You can be sure that it would be one unholy mess, with all kinds of lawsuits, injunctions and steamed customers. So I guess fundamentally its all about risk. As developers using free posted code, we personally take the risk that the code we're using is legally clean. We sign agreements with our customers and employers telling them that we guarantee that. I doubt that professional errors and omissions insurance would cover most cases of infringement that resulted from the use of freely posted code, but I'm not a lawyer (or an insurance salesman) so I'm not positive about that. We recently ran into a case where a major Fortune 1000 company cancelled the launch of a product because the legal department discovered after the fact that publicly posted code had been used in its creation. If you're not in the F1000 or indirectly working for them then you probably don't care about this, but they sure do.
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Actually, HP is using the BCG Library (what Paul keeps calling the Stas library, the developer's first name). And it's not like MS is exactly a large producer of apps that use MFC either..
Jim I'm not familiar with that library, so I can't comment on the particulars. But let's say it is entirely unwarranted code that HP puts in a commercial application. What happens if I file a complaint against HP that some of the code in this library is mine, and they're using it without my permission. Then I sue them. What is their defense? They can't go back to Stas; they have no enforeable contractual relationship with him at all. Why would any company leave themselves open to those kind of legal risks? I am sure that there is more to this HP/BCG library situation than meets the eye. If you buy a used car... and you're smart... you take the trouble to find out if the seller of the car really owns it. I can't believe that HP would do the equivalent of that with code... i.e. use it even if they had no idea who it really belonged to. Gordy
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I totally agree with these two guys. This place is for coding, finding solutions etc. We need more code samples, not news. My two pennys worth :
There must be over 750 articles here, all for free, and you guys complain that this site isn't good enough and it should be better, there should be more. How about saying Thank You instead of bitching and being ungrateful for something that you don't have to read and you don't have to pay for
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Actually, HP is using the BCG Library (what Paul keeps calling the Stas library, the developer's first name). And it's not like MS is exactly a large producer of apps that use MFC either..
Hello Jim, Nice points there. What we needed is a community of developers to help each other. When your *lights* go off, and you run to CodeProject/Codeguru site to find a solution there could be nothing better. Oh! after the smile you open the package to find, not-be-be-used-in-commercial-applications, you will curse your day! I personally do not write commercial applications *directly" now, but just not happy about this restriction on intermediate solutions, which at times provide only idea but not a desired design and you will have to recode a lot of parts to your needs. Very simple copyright notices should not hurt anyone here, since we all benefit from each others code. This is the only way one could feel belonging to a family of developers, and will be more than satisfied to throw out any cool work he/she does--my humble thoughts. Paul.