Computer Science core

BrockVnm

I graduated from College in 2001 and thought that the courses I took were great. I was looking at my colleges website and noticed that they are starting to teach Java as the core language. Now I am a java developer but I still think that C/C++ should be tought as the core. I noticed that alot of colleges are doing this now. I just found it so easy to learn Java since I already knew C++. I did not think it was a tough jump. Why would colleges start teaching languages as Java instead of C++?? Just not sure why they would do this. Has anyone else noticed a trend like this and what do you think?

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. We shouldn't assume something's debugged just because everyone in the whole world has access to the source code.

Lost User

My guess would be that colleges don't have the time to teach C++ anymore; they're too busy teaching remedial math and english, making up for the shortcomings of the public education system.

Lost User

The same thing happened with the college i attended in Australia. I put it down to a number of things 1) Its easier to learn and therefore easier to teach 2) Because its easier to learn people get better grades and the college looks better 3) Because its easier to teach its easier to find good teachers. If you had 10+ years experiance as a c++ developer would you want to spend the rest of your days explaining to college kids the difference between a pointer and a reference when you could get a better paying job as a programmer, team leader, project manager or even tester? 4) They like to think that as educators they have the ability to infulence the future of the industry 5) They dont live in the real world

Brian Van Beek

I do see this as a trend. I just graduated in December of 2004, and in the short time (4.5 years) I was in college, pretty much all of the computer science core classes have switched to java. I do think java is easier to learn. That being said, I'm glad I had to learn C++ first. It let me "appreciate" the easiness of java that much more (yes, I too am now a java developer). I'm like you, and after learning C++, java was a no brainer. Another trend I see at my former college is classes going to C# as well (especially in the MIS major). Brian Van Beek My Blog is Awesome, ok maybe not, but is still fun!!

Rui A Rebelo

Does it matter? Shouldn't it be about the concepts and techniques (which can be implemented in both languages) and not the languages itself? Personally, I still prefer C++ to Java (more freedom, performance, portability doesn't matter, etc). However they might have a point on using Java in Object Oriented Programming: it forces the programmer to do OO; in Java you must catch the exceptions, declare the classes, etc. Just to finish: don't you think they focus to much in programming in these courses (algorithms, discrete math, etc) and too little in project design management (design patterns, development methodologies, etc)? Rui A. Rebelo Caminante no hay camino. El camino se hace nel caminar. Frederico Garcia-Lorca

Brian Van Beek

I agree it is about the concepts and techniquest. But I just feel as though in java so much of the fundamentals that everyone should learn are "hidden" from the programmer. If I could do it my way, I'd teach them C++ first, but then also teach them java later in their education. Brian Van Beek My Blog is Awesome, ok maybe not, but is still fun!!

Rui A Rebelo

Brian Van Beek wrote: But I just feel as though in java so much of the fundamentals that everyone should learn are "hidden" from the programmer. Umm ... I have to admit C is more suitable to teach how compilers and memory management work. Rui A. Rebelo Caminante no hay camino. El camino se hace nel caminar. Frederico Garcia-Lorca

BrockVnm

I agree with Brian. It is about the concepts and techniques which I feel are understood better through a language like C++. A good teacher would still force the programmer to do OO. I also feel like I can pick up other languages like C# because I know C++. The fact that I know C++ allows me to choose a language for a project. I also feel that C++ would help you understand the concepts better becuase there is so much more you have to do yourself.

Brigg Thorp

I graduated in 1995 with a degere in CS. For the initial classes, the language was Pascal (actually, Turbo Pascal from Borland). However, I have seen that they too are forcing everyone to use Java. I think pointers are a thorn in a lot of people's butts, and keeping them even further away from this I think leads to less of an education. We need languages where you are in charge of creating AND destroying variables, as well as managing compl;ex data structures. Regards, Brigg Thorp Senior Software Engineer Timex Corporation

Vega02

At my university (Carnegie Mellon), most of the intro programming courses are taught in Java. The reason for this is because the University wants people to learn the fundamental concepts of programming a computer (object-oriented programming, etc.) rather than how to actually write fast, efficient code in C / C++. Additionally, Java makes it much easier for students to learn about program architecture without burdening them with the tasks of memory management. That said, our systems courses are taught in C. One of these courses is required for all CS students and teaches the basic systems concepts of how the memory cache, signal handling, file descriptors, etc. operate on a real computer. There is also a course in which students must write an operating system or a compiler or a networking protocol; most of the programming in that is C. I think that the intro switch to Java has been a good thing, overall. It's the beginning of a trend where universities are realizing that they should teach CS courses in languages that are most beneficial to those specific courses.

Andrew Peace

Josh Gray wrote: 1) Its easier to learn and therefore easier to teach More importantly, it doesn't require as much knowledge of the hardware platform as C++ does, allowing more flexibility in the arrangement of courses. Josh Gray wrote: 2) Because its easier to learn people get better grades and the college looks better Grades at my college are normalised so the same number of people (roughly) get the same grade each year, making it a competition against peers rather than against a fixed standard (this technique removes the bias caused by variations in the papers, particularly in terms of difficulty, across the years). Josh Gray wrote: 3) Because its easier to teach its easier to find good teachers. I think the reality it that Java is a language fairly widely used by academics studying practical computer science (as opposed to languages such as the ML variants used by theorists). Josh Gray wrote: 4) They like to think that as educators they have the ability to infulence (sic) the future of the industry Maybe, this probably depends on the University and its attitude towards industry as a whole - many of the top British universities have until recently had comparitavely few relations with industry in Computer Science, though this is changing as more and more research fellows are creating spin-off companies that leverage work that they have carried out in research. Josh Gray wrote: 5) They dont live in the real world :) probably quite true! -- Andrew.

Darrell Long

I think is is because Java is cheaper for the schools to support. You can get free tools and compilers for every instructor and every student. Also, Java supports teaching on the Linux(Cheap Unix) computers on campus and all the Windows PC's that the students typically have. Writing Java Applets teaches web development, so there is one low-cost standard for all the courses that a college wants to offer. I think that Microsoft has caught on to this fact and that is why there is a free command-line compiler for .NET and efforts like MONO are not being stopped Microsoft.

DavidNohejl

hmm. In my university, I had "general programming" (they use Pascal to show OOP very basics and algorithms) and C/C++ course so far (with focus on C, C++ will be in-depth in next semester). And I am happy for that. MY friend is on somewhat "worse" school, and they are learning Java. While he shows me some fancy UI that he learnt to do, I only smile. If I had to learn those ( relatively simple ) things again (self-thought), it would be wasted time on university! I better learn how to sort numbers in O(N) :P David

Gary R Wheeler

You children :). When I was in school, somewhen before the dawn of recorded history (e.g. 1979), our initial courses were taught in FORTRAN. During my five years, I also programmed in assembly language (four kinds), PL/I, and Pascal. I narrowly avoided having to learn Forth; they changed the computer graphics courses from PL/I to Forth right after I finished them. That said, it really doesn't matter what language computer science is taught in, as long as fundamental principles are taught. I've not used any of the languages I learned in school in over 15 years. I can still apply the principles I learned in my data structures class (which was taught using FORTRAN), even though I use C++ now. Lastly, here's my perspective on recent computer science graduates: I don't care what languages they know or don't know. I'm more interested in what sort of applications they're interested in (embedded, desktop, data base,...), what their working practices are like (top-down, bottom-up, organized), and so on. You can't acquire proficiency in a programming language in school anyway. I don't think you gain real skill using a language until you've got 100,000 lines of code or more under your belt.

Software Zen: delete this;

fwsouthern

Bite me -- the problem is NOT the public education system but the national administration, ie Bush, who is driving all to mediocrity with such ill-conceived programs as "no child left behind" and "mainstreaming" -- we drag the more average to guifted down to the lowest common denominator, the also-ran, thank you for playing. You want to know what's wrong with the present public education system, contrast K-12 with colleges, trade schools, and other specialized institutions, and, if you dare, contrast public education in the US with most other countries who do not relish mediocrity and actually reward superior achievement. You don't achieve, you don't go on to higher education. Why do we teach Java instead of C++ -- why not ask why do most colleges not have programs in assembly language and programming process controllers? It is EASIER to teach to the "mainstream", it is EASIER to recruit mediocre "instructors" rather than professors, and it is EASIER for the average student to comprehend. Who gives a damn how the machine does it or how to optimize it -- just code i++ or ++i and the "system" takes care of whatever variable size you are using, including range checking? Who gives a damn about raw IO buffer sizes compared to actual disk sectors? The "system" will save your butt. Memory is cheap so why bother with memory utilization -- let the "system" manage a larger swap file, let the "system" page for you, let the "system" provide all means of native support -- all you have to do is code simplicity and let the program take all the memory and overhead it wants. Its so much easier to "box" things and cram them on the stack/heap rather than create optimized data structures. By the way, how many programmers know what variables go on the stack versus the heap? How many know how garbage collection is managed and the overhead added to your program by garbage collection or range checking? Why worry about managing the life cycle of your pointers, just use "smart pointers" and the "system" will save your butt. When our national leaders finally realize, if they ever do, that we should not embrace mediocrity but achievement, then we will go back to teaching the core basics and REQUIRING competency to progress, not pass merely because the mediocre also-ran. As a parting thought, have you ever checked what we pay public school teachers compared to the actual amount of work they perform and the goals and standards we set for them in terms of the mediocre student advancement? It takes a pretty damned dedicated t