Sad but understandable
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Toasty0 wrote: The guy was subdued, in custody, and then shot 5 Exactly where do you see that info? I see that they had jumped on him, but nowhere was the word subdued used. The guy appearently spoke very good english, and had "challenged" (whatever that means) the police and then ran. Given his clothing, it was reasonable to suspect that he might be wearing a suicide vest, one that he could detonate in an instant, even pinned to the floor, likely killing everyone nearby. The cops did the right thing. Unfortunately, an innocent person paid for their stupidiy with their life. Toasty0 wrote: Makes you wonder why they killed this guy in the first place. Sheesh! Don't you ever tire of conspiracy theories? Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Rob Graham wrote: Exactly where do you see that info? Police have previously shot men believed to be dangerous, but they have not stood over a prostrate figure and unloaded five rounds into him from point-blank range. As quoted from: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1706914,00.html[^] Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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Who's cheering? Not condemning, and expressing gratitute for good public servants perhaps. Rising to their defense for sure, but I wouldn't say cheering. How many people run from the cops at all? (other than criminals or would be criminals, that is)? How many people wear a "heavy, padded coat" in July in London? Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
You assume he knew these guys in street clothes were police and not thugs trying to rob him. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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You assume he knew these guys in street clothes were police and not thugs trying to rob him. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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You as a conservative should understand this better than anyone. The guy was subdued, in custody, and then shot 5 times. Is that what your conservatives call 'due process" these days? Not in my neck of the wood, bucko. Also, keep in mind these were plain clothes cops. The guy might've thought he was being persued by anti-muslim extremists. Not an unreasonable thought given the rhetoric from within and without the Mosques these past few days. I'd also like to add that these cops acted recklessly on another level too. By killing what they thought to be a potential bomber they killed an avenue of information. Makes you wonder why they killed this guy in the first place. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote: o, keep in mind these were plain clothes cops. The guy might've thought he was being persued by anti-muslim extremists Bollox. This excuse is being trotted out by anyone and everyone at the moment. So let's just get one fact straight. IT IS ILLEGAL FOR THE POLICE OR ANY GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL TO TRY AND DETAIN OR IN ANY WAY RESTRAIN A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC WITHIN THE UNITED KINGDOM WITHOUT CLEARLY IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES AS SUCH TO THE INDIVIDUAL INVOLVED. If it turns out that the officers in question broke standard procedure then they should and will be punished. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "So keep that smile on your face. Have a drink to help you sleep at night. They got what they desired. We're passive in their brave new world." New Model Army
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Who's cheering? Not condemning, and expressing gratitute for good public servants perhaps. Rising to their defense for sure, but I wouldn't say cheering. How many people run from the cops at all? (other than criminals or would be criminals, that is)? How many people wear a "heavy, padded coat" in July in London? Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Rob Graham wrote: How many people wear a "heavy, padded coat" in July in London? Someone used to a warmer climate? I found enough voices that sdounded to me as "cool, finally someone who does the right thing". I was going to gather some and post them here, but I'm to bored to do even that :/
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
Rob Graham wrote: How many people wear a "heavy, padded coat" in July in London? Someone used to a warmer climate? I found enough voices that sdounded to me as "cool, finally someone who does the right thing". I was going to gather some and post them here, but I'm to bored to do even that :/
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenBelieving the police did the correct thing does not mean people condone the killing of any man, innocent or not. Given the circumstances on Friday there were only two possible outcomes: kill the suspect or have the suspect kill another train full of people. The police officers involved made the correct desicion. He was not just some guy chosen at random off the street, there were strong mitigating circumstances. For the firing officer, his career is now over. We excommunicate our police officers on the rare occasion they kill someone innocent regardless of whether they did it in good faith to protect our lives - it's a necessary side effect of their Trial By Media.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (QT)
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Rob Graham wrote: How many people wear a "heavy, padded coat" in July in London? Someone used to a warmer climate? I found enough voices that sdounded to me as "cool, finally someone who does the right thing". I was going to gather some and post them here, but I'm to bored to do even that :/
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenpeterchen wrote: I found enough voices that sounded to me as "cool, finally someone who does the right thing". Doug Goulden wrote: Sad but understandable I think Doug's title and original post says it pretty well. A few may come across rather crass but take those that write so in context of how they write. I find no one saying finally the right thing has been done. As others state, we do not feel with the information known, that the officers acted incorrectly. I am seeing plenty of condemnation "Yep typical cowboy gunslingers" that is not justified. Take a look a Wulff's first reply. The officers had little time. I have served as part of my communities citizens patrol. The conflicting information officers get and having to make life decisions in seconds is very intense. These are not officers in some small good-old-boy west Texas town, they are from a major force which I am sure has good training and constant review. I am sure this case will be thoroughly studied and action taken, probably training modification or additions. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that I can think of.
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Amazing phenomenon, isn't it? And fascinating too observe, although a little freightening at the same time. Where does this kind of insanity come from? Frankly, I think these people actually believe in the perfection of government. It is a wierd kind of faith, and when government fails to act perfectly, they feel betrayed, and lash out far more emotioanlly than they do in response to those attacking them. They maintain a zealous commitment to an unproven and unworkable set of intellectual principles that simply blinds them to the reality which they are confronted with. It is a simple problem, you are being attacked, your neighbors are being murdered, you kill the bad guys as ruthlessly as possible. If some of your friends get caught in the crossfire, you apologize, bury them, build them a nice statue, than you have a big victory party get drunk and go on with your life without looking back or contemplating your frigging navel. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: go on with your life without looking back Much of what you say is fine. But it seams like the last line usually winds up being a slap in the face. Maybe that is your intent but it does not help in gaining agreement or understanding. No you definitly look back. A tragedy has happened, a life lost. At least what can we learn from it so we reduce the probably of a repeat. I know of no major police force in the world that does not study what happened. Yes may be not in some small west Texas (or OK) town, but definitly in any large city. So if you wish to persuade others, my 2 cents is to write your post and then delete the last sentence. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that I can think of.
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But we don't have armed thugs in London on the underground. And why would armed thugs threaten one guy, out of a whole station, and then proceed to chase him? I can't think of any city where that would happen, let alone London.
Johnny ² wrote: But we don't have armed thugs in London on the underground. Really? I think you mean to say you 'rarely' have armed thugs. Also, consider that in Brazil armed thugs are not unusual or rare. Johnny ² wrote: And why would armed thugs threaten one guy, out of a whole station, and then proceed to chase him? I can't think of any city where that would happen, let alone London. I don't know what to say to this. That is exactly how thugs work the world over. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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Believing the police did the correct thing does not mean people condone the killing of any man, innocent or not. Given the circumstances on Friday there were only two possible outcomes: kill the suspect or have the suspect kill another train full of people. The police officers involved made the correct desicion. He was not just some guy chosen at random off the street, there were strong mitigating circumstances. For the firing officer, his career is now over. We excommunicate our police officers on the rare occasion they kill someone innocent regardless of whether they did it in good faith to protect our lives - it's a necessary side effect of their Trial By Media.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (QT)
David Wulff wrote: Given the circumstances on Friday there were only two possible outcomes: kill the suspect or have the suspect kill another train full of people. Bullshit! This shows just hysterical everyone has become, even the highly trained police. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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Stan Shannon wrote: go on with your life without looking back Much of what you say is fine. But it seams like the last line usually winds up being a slap in the face. Maybe that is your intent but it does not help in gaining agreement or understanding. No you definitly look back. A tragedy has happened, a life lost. At least what can we learn from it so we reduce the probably of a repeat. I know of no major police force in the world that does not study what happened. Yes may be not in some small west Texas (or OK) town, but definitly in any large city. So if you wish to persuade others, my 2 cents is to write your post and then delete the last sentence. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that I can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: No you definitly look back. A tragedy has happened, a life lost. At least what can we learn from it so we reduce the probably of a repeat. I have to disagree. As a society I think we are overcommitted to a utopian concept of justice which virtually hamstrings our ability to defend ourselves from people who have no such commitment and are all too aware of how we chain ourselves to that concept and easily dance around us just out of reach. If I am to look back I will do so all the way back to the Texas frontier where my (and yours?) ancestors very effictively dealt with far more serious threats to their immediate welfare. At some point you have to be able to convince the bad guy that you are capable of being badder than he ever dreamed of being. You have to make him scared of you. Hmmmm, can't think of a good 'slap in the face' final sentence... "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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How many people run from cops without having a bomb under their coat? Maybe he was just without train ticket. What amazed me most when reading the postst was Uptight Republicans cheering at governments shooting people. Only commies do that.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
Toasty0 wrote: o, keep in mind these were plain clothes cops. The guy might've thought he was being persued by anti-muslim extremists Bollox. This excuse is being trotted out by anyone and everyone at the moment. So let's just get one fact straight. IT IS ILLEGAL FOR THE POLICE OR ANY GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL TO TRY AND DETAIN OR IN ANY WAY RESTRAIN A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC WITHIN THE UNITED KINGDOM WITHOUT CLEARLY IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES AS SUCH TO THE INDIVIDUAL INVOLVED. If it turns out that the officers in question broke standard procedure then they should and will be punished. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "So keep that smile on your face. Have a drink to help you sleep at night. They got what they desired. We're passive in their brave new world." New Model Army
How is that bullox? Even you say "If it turns out...". Obviously you are not so sure yourself. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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Amazing phenomenon, isn't it? And fascinating too observe, although a little freightening at the same time. Where does this kind of insanity come from? Frankly, I think these people actually believe in the perfection of government. It is a wierd kind of faith, and when government fails to act perfectly, they feel betrayed, and lash out far more emotioanlly than they do in response to those attacking them. They maintain a zealous commitment to an unproven and unworkable set of intellectual principles that simply blinds them to the reality which they are confronted with. It is a simple problem, you are being attacked, your neighbors are being murdered, you kill the bad guys as ruthlessly as possible. If some of your friends get caught in the crossfire, you apologize, bury them, build them a nice statue, than you have a big victory party get drunk and go on with your life without looking back or contemplating your frigging navel. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: you kill the bad guys as ruthlessly as possible. If some of your friends get caught in the crossfire, you apologize, bury them, build them a nice statue, than you have a big victory party get drunk and go on with your life without looking back or contemplating your frigging navel. Darn, Stan, are you sure you're not a troll working for moveon.org? Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: No you definitly look back. A tragedy has happened, a life lost. At least what can we learn from it so we reduce the probably of a repeat. I have to disagree. As a society I think we are overcommitted to a utopian concept of justice which virtually hamstrings our ability to defend ourselves from people who have no such commitment and are all too aware of how we chain ourselves to that concept and easily dance around us just out of reach. If I am to look back I will do so all the way back to the Texas frontier where my (and yours?) ancestors very effictively dealt with far more serious threats to their immediate welfare. At some point you have to be able to convince the bad guy that you are capable of being badder than he ever dreamed of being. You have to make him scared of you. Hmmmm, can't think of a good 'slap in the face' final sentence... "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
What Stan really wants to say is that we should bring back mob justice and lynchings. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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Johnny ² wrote: But we don't have armed thugs in London on the underground. Really? I think you mean to say you 'rarely' have armed thugs. Also, consider that in Brazil armed thugs are not unusual or rare. Johnny ² wrote: And why would armed thugs threaten one guy, out of a whole station, and then proceed to chase him? I can't think of any city where that would happen, let alone London. I don't know what to say to this. That is exactly how thugs work the world over. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote: Really? I think you mean to say you 'rarely' have armed thugs. Also, consider that in Brazil armed thugs are not unusual or rare. Really. I know you very occasionally get pick pockets, but in all my years of living here, I've never heard of armed thugs on the tube. There is maybe one or two a month on the underground. you don't get that many at ground level. The UK is not the US, the police are usually not armed as they don't need to be, you really don't get gun crime here, and your chances of getting caught up in such a thing are over 3 orders of magnitude less. There is a black on black gun/gang problem in certain areas, but its very very rare to get anything else, and even that is limited. If there is an armed mugging or robbing, it will almost certainly make the national news, and will be on the TV for a few days if someone is killed.
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You as a conservative should understand this better than anyone. The guy was subdued, in custody, and then shot 5 times. Is that what your conservatives call 'due process" these days? Not in my neck of the wood, bucko. Also, keep in mind these were plain clothes cops. The guy might've thought he was being persued by anti-muslim extremists. Not an unreasonable thought given the rhetoric from within and without the Mosques these past few days. I'd also like to add that these cops acted recklessly on another level too. By killing what they thought to be a potential bomber they killed an avenue of information. Makes you wonder why they killed this guy in the first place. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote: You as a conservative should understand this better than anyone. The guy was subdued, in custody, and then shot 5 times. The guy had several people on top of him, and he very well could have been carrying explosives and had a switch are a remote detonator to set them off. I think that their actions were understandable under the circumstances, but regret that they were wrong. If they had summarily carried the guy out of the subway car, put him against the wall and shot him I would agree with you totally, but I think that under circumstances, they were reacting to what on the outside seemed like a very real threat. Toasty0 wrote: I'd also like to add that these cops acted recklessly on another level too. By killing what they thought to be a potential bomber they killed an avenue of information. So it would be better if they had just surrounded someone who may have had explosives, and then tried to negotiate with him while he had a subway car full of hostages? I think you fail to realize how dangerous the people we are dealing with are. The man acted foolishly by running into that subway station. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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How is that bullox? Even you say "If it turns out...". Obviously you are not so sure yourself. Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
I think that most people try to give the benefit of the doubt to the police officials who protect us. Like most people, excluding you of course, they may be fallible, but they are what stand between us and those who would do us harm. If they act imporoperly they answer for it. Look at the fact that the announcement of their mistake was prompt and complete, they could have continued to insist this guy was somehow involved in the bombings to cover up their mistake. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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How many people run from cops without having a bomb under their coat? Maybe he was just without train ticket. What amazed me most when reading the postst was Uptight Republicans cheering at governments shooting people. Only commies do that.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
How many people run from cops without having a bomb under their coat? Maybe he was just without train ticket. What amazed me most when reading the postst was Uptight Republicans cheering at governments shooting people. Only commies do that.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenpeterchen wrote: What amazed me most when reading the postst was Uptight Republicans cheering at governments shooting people I never cheered that the man was killed, I merely said that under the circumstances it was understandable. If someone a month ago had been shot under similar circumstances I would be outraged, but when this happens in the wake of 2 sets of terrorist bombings, I expect the police to react differently. The reason I expect a different reaction is that the police are responsible to protect the public. "Serve and Protect" is a real concept. If someone ran onto an airport terminal crashed through security and somehow managed to board an airplane, I would expect police to take whatever steps necessary to stop them. The man ws dressed in a manner that he could have been carring explosives, and went for a crowded subway train. He understoos English and had to have been aware of the bombings, he was a fool and this whole thing is sad. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
