Hiroshima
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And let's not forget about the millions of people killed or injured by the Japanese during WWII. In fact nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki simply pale in comparison with say Nanking masacre where japanese killed well above 300 000 and raped some 20 000 to 80 000 women (most of which were murdered or mutilated afterwards or turned into sex slawes).
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How many people in Pearl Harbor were deserving of the acts the Japanese committed? War isn't about punishing the guilty... its about ending the war. The Japanese people worshipped their Emporer who along with his military perpetrated a long series of war crimes. The idea that the US should have tried to find a more humane way to end the war is ridiculous. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
And I believe that there have been condolences expressed here at the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Why don't you quit the knuckle-dragging, chest-thumping flag waving long enough to acknowledge that innocent people died on both sides. You might find that you're a better person for it.
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My wife and I were just watching a clip of the ceremonies at Hiroshima today on the news and it struck me that it was kind of odd that such a seemingly desperate measure was taken by the U.S. at a time that was AFAIK not calling for such desperation. According to MacArthur Japan was starting to draw up plans for formal surrender and he was scaling down some planned operations at the time. I'm not being critical here, I firmly believe that you can not second guess what people were feeling and doing in the past, I didn't live through that and to be fair I suspect the people who ordered the attack were probably surprised at the level of destruction that resulted. But the timing of the whole thing has always seemed very peculiar to me. Almost as if because the bomb existed, it just had to be used, somewhere, anywhere.
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
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I read that (apparently) it was also to do with showing the Soviets that the US had such weapons so that they didn't try to take over parts of Europe in the aftermath of war.
Not so much to keep them out of Europe (which we conceded anyway), but to keep them out of Japan; and just as a show of force. Or so the spin artists would have us believe. Personally I don't place a whole lot of faith in revisionists like Noam Chomsky et al.
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If you're such a butthead that you can't feel sympathy for civilian victims of the only uses of atomic weapons in history, why don't you take a stroll over to the Soapbox, where I can freely express what I think of a worm like yourself.
I am sorry but Japan was a country waging a total war against civilians all around Asia at the time. There are actually no civilians in total war. It's TOTAL. The whole country is serving a military and all and every people of a given country are de-facto soldiers in one way or another. No victims and no civilians died in Hiroshima from atomic blast because there were none in Japan at the time. Japanese still don't think they did anything wrong at the time. They still have the emperor around and most of the military responsible for the atrocities consider themselfs as heroes. That kinda proves my point really.
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finger pointing. nice.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
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I am sorry but Japan was a country waging a total war against civilians all around Asia at the time. There are actually no civilians in total war. It's TOTAL. The whole country is serving a military and all and every people of a given country are de-facto soldiers in one way or another. No victims and no civilians died in Hiroshima from atomic blast because there were none in Japan at the time. Japanese still don't think they did anything wrong at the time. They still have the emperor around and most of the military responsible for the atrocities consider themselfs as heroes. That kinda proves my point really.
>>>>Soapbox<<<<[^] Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
I wonder how many in Hiroshima were personally responsible for that?
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
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>>>>Soapbox<<<<[^] Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidySorry but no. This thread started here and it can end here. I am sick of twisting the history and making Japan a victim where it's obvious they were agressors and I have no reason to go to soapbox - no names calling will come from me here just the facts and carefully stated opinions.
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Sorry but no. This thread started here and it can end here. I am sick of twisting the history and making Japan a victim where it's obvious they were agressors and I have no reason to go to soapbox - no names calling will come from me here just the facts and carefully stated opinions.
No, this thread started with RIP, and you ain't giving them any rest. pc128 wrote: no names calling will come from me here just the facts and carefully stated opinions. As "official" rules say... but there are also "unofficial" rules saying everything controversial goes to soapbox. A-bombing city with 250 000 people IS controversial topic. Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
My wife and I were just watching a clip of the ceremonies at Hiroshima today on the news and it struck me that it was kind of odd that such a seemingly desperate measure was taken by the U.S. at a time that was AFAIK not calling for such desperation. According to MacArthur Japan was starting to draw up plans for formal surrender and he was scaling down some planned operations at the time. I'm not being critical here, I firmly believe that you can not second guess what people were feeling and doing in the past, I didn't live through that and to be fair I suspect the people who ordered the attack were probably surprised at the level of destruction that resulted. But the timing of the whole thing has always seemed very peculiar to me. Almost as if because the bomb existed, it just had to be used, somewhere, anywhere.
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
I think Japan gave a clear sample of what to expect on Ivo Jima and Okinawa. I don't think there would be unconditional surrender and any other surrender would simply allow Japanese empire to be rebuild and the whole thing may have started all other again. On the other hand I don't quite get why people get so upset with the use of atomic weapon. The conventional carpet bombing could bring almost the same amount of devastation expect many pople would die a horrible deaths in firestorms as opposed to be vaporised instantly. At mere 20kTNT atomic bomb would not have been effective against many military targets and it was more of a psychological effect that worked here.
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Sorry but no. This thread started here and it can end here. I am sick of twisting the history and making Japan a victim where it's obvious they were agressors and I have no reason to go to soapbox - no names calling will come from me here just the facts and carefully stated opinions.
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No, this thread started with RIP, and you ain't giving them any rest. pc128 wrote: no names calling will come from me here just the facts and carefully stated opinions. As "official" rules say... but there are also "unofficial" rules saying everything controversial goes to soapbox. A-bombing city with 250 000 people IS controversial topic. Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidyIt sure is controversial. I don't want to drill into that or troll here. I am not looking for fight either. This thread should not have been started here at all and so you can invite the person who started it to go to the soapbox to express their opinions. I am just bringing a little balance to the discussion because somebody had to do that.
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pc128 wrote: This thread started here and it can end here. Listen, loser, you've just created your user profile; you have no history here, and no knowledge of protocol. Get your ass out of here.
wow, havin'a a bad day? :wtf: Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
pc128 wrote: This thread started here and it can end here. Listen, loser, you've just created your user profile; you have no history here, and no knowledge of protocol. Get your ass out of here.
I think he has as much a right to express his opinion as anyone here. Right now the only name calling has come from those with a different opinion than his and in the form of agression. Makes me wonder about who's really right. I like you and respect you (LunaticFringe) but you are wrong to not respect his opinions and maybe challenge them with thoughtful and unemotional counters. Don't get angry you are becoming what you abhor and in doing so believe you are right. That's not a good or healthy thing.
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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And I believe that there have been condolences expressed here at the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Why don't you quit the knuckle-dragging, chest-thumping flag waving long enough to acknowledge that innocent people died on both sides. You might find that you're a better person for it.
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pc128 wrote: This thread started here and it can end here. Listen, loser, you've just created your user profile; you have no history here, and no knowledge of protocol. Get your ass out of here.
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I read that (apparently) it was also to do with showing the Soviets that the US had such weapons so that they didn't try to take over parts of Europe in the aftermath of war.
If it were not for atomic bomb many more millions would day if the invasion took place. My wild guess (judging by the experiences of the Okinawa and Ivo Jima) would be about a million of US soldiers and perhaps up to 10 millions of Japanese during some year long fighting. And kid yourself not - Japanese army and general public was preparing for just that.
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And let's not forget about the millions of people killed or injured by the Japanese during WWII. In fact nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki simply pale in comparison with say Nanking masacre where japanese killed well above 300 000 and raped some 20 000 to 80 000 women (most of which were murdered or mutilated afterwards or turned into sex slawes).
Yes, the Japanese were bloodthirsty sex fiends, and Hiroshima was a military and industrial machine. That's irrelevant here. Today, we remember that in 1945, many people died in Hiroshima, killed by one of only two atomic bombs ever used against an enemy nation. We remember and morn the loss of life, as befits death on such a grand scale, and we remember and commemorate the occasion as an event that where the deaths of some spared the lives of others. It is a solumn occasion, one where most initial exuberance has evaporated over the years as details on the full cost of life and health came to light. And yet, it is not an occasion for false regret, as to do so would for many mean regret of their own births. Don't let hatred or pride prevent you from recognizing this for what it is - an occasion unique in human history, one that cannot be understood in terms of any other event. Remember.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
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I think he has as much a right to express his opinion as anyone here. Right now the only name calling has come from those with a different opinion than his and in the form of agression. Makes me wonder about who's really right. I like you and respect you (LunaticFringe) but you are wrong to not respect his opinions and maybe challenge them with thoughtful and unemotional counters. Don't get angry you are becoming what you abhor and in doing so believe you are right. That's not a good or healthy thing.
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
"{Edited} removed dnh from my comments" ? Now I'll be wondering whole day where I was in your comments. :-O Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy