London shooting
-
Anonymous wrote: whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same No, it is not the same *at all*, and that is where your problem lies. There is an IPCC investigation, pending a possible ciminal investigation, if the police force were to comment on any aspect of the case then they would be breaking the law and no one would get a fair trial. As it is, the media has already done servere damage to Mr. Menezes case for justice, but since when has what's 'right' or 'just' ever got in the way of a newspaper headline? Two wrongs do not make a right, the police force involved is holding their ground, and quite rightly so. The force's first priority is to ensure that evidence is collected and nothing is done that would hamper their own ongoing investigations (you know... the ones to catch the people who murdered 52 Londoners). That is the reason the IPCC investigation was held up, and it has been publicly stated as the reason. At the time the name of the bomber whom they identified this man as was not publicly realised because it was critical to the investigation, hence the reason it was not made public after the shooting and hence the reason it was deliberately avoided by the comissioner. The investigation, however, was still active during that time, and the reason for holding it up was perfectly valid and legal. You want the resignation of our Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the most senior operational police officer we have, the man who has done a lot for the advancement of our police forces over the years before his appointment, a knight no less, over a newspaper headline? You really need to get your head out of your arse long enough to separate fact from you wild sensationalist fiction. Sure it's not as fun or exciting, but that's life. You can't just change things because it would make something easier for you. I find it ironic, but sadly not at all surprising, that the aftermath of this mans death at the hands of police in London is causing more disturbance in the world than the mass murder of 52 people days beforehand. Do you know why that is? I'll tell you - it is because we can point the blame finger at the police, but the terrorists are faceless. Such is the state of our society today, where it is always someone elses fault. Anonymous wrote: I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say? When I
-
Anonymous wrote: It's accountability to the democratic process Such a process is taking place, it was initiated the moment the order to kill was given. Anonymous wrote: knowing what I do about the police there and the fact that he pumped 11 bullets into someone makes me wonder if he does I'm sure he is loving the friendly death threats his family is receiving, and the knowledge that with each day it is less and less likely he will get anything close to a fair democratic investigation.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
I have lived all over the country, from nice rural Hertfordshire to Milton Keynes to East Anglia, to the slums of Exeter, the so-called capital city of the South West, and now, a market town in the middle of rural Devon. I've seen many local police forces and many different liveries. I have seen and spoken to my local ARU a number of times (a requirement as I operate imitation firearms on my property where there is a chance a member of the public will call the police). We don't have local beat bobbie anymore, they went with the railways before I was born.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
fakefur wrote: Many deaths in police custody that they have never answered for. I'm sure the relatives don't really care if they were shot or suffocated or kicked to death by the police. I'm sure they'd don't, but you seem to. Well up until the facts come out, then you changed your mind. We were talking about the ARUs only one reply ago, why the sudden change of topic? The issue here is accountability for shooting a man. Period.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
David Wullff wrote: The IPCC investigation must be allowed to complete unhindered Therefore I assumed that was a given. :confused:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
So you are a NRA wannabe. That would explain a lot. And btw Exeter et al don't really count as huge multi-cultural metropolii.
How far from the truth people can stray. :sigh:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
No actually the police tried to prevent the investigation. You know he is getting death threats and all that do you?
I'm not going to start repeating myself again, not for you or for fat_boy, so you can search through this thread to find the message I'm referring to. There are very good and perfectly legal/understandable reasons why part of the IPCC investigation was delayed - not prevented, delayed - and that was to protect the integrity of the criminal investigation into finding the bombers that had detonated four bombs on the transport network the day before.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
So you are a NRA wannabe. That would explain a lot. And btw Exeter et al don't really count as huge multi-cultural metropolii.
fakefur wrote: And btw Exeter et al don't really count as huge multi-cultural metropolii. That was not a conclusive list, if you want more... London, Southampton, Norwich, Plymouth, Bristol... all places I have lived in at one time or another. I quote Exeter because that area had the most problems.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
No numbnuts. The issue is the police and their accountability for this and other deaths that they are responsible for. But as I see from earlier you are a gun toting NRA wannabe so I expect nothing other than the macho culture from you.
fakefur wrote: No numbnuts I just checked, they're not numb. fakefur wrote: The issue is the police and their accountability for this and other deaths that they are responsible for. I refuse to repeat myself. Read the message you replied to, then tell me how yours is a reply to that. fakefur wrote: I see from earlier you are a gun toting NRA wannabe D'oh, why of course I am! Psst, please don't tell the NRA I'm actively for - and involved in - removing guns from society though, they'll revoke my life membership! fakefur wrote: I expect nothing other than the macho culture from you And I offer my appologies, for it seems I am expecting far too much from you.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
So the fact that the police tried to prevent the IPCC from investigating the shooting is OK for you?
Do you actually read what other people write here, or do you just have a checklist of standard reponses to use? :confused: They did not try to prevent the investigation, they tried to limit exposure while they moved in and arrested the four men who detonated bombs on the transport network the day before. Standard police work, which was complied with, nothing more. They did not stop the investigation, and all available evidence was provided in due course. As a result of their actions they have now taken all four bombers into custody, and off of our streets. Remember that the IPCC is in a bitter power struggle with the Met, they are playing these events as much as they can for their own political gain.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
-
Stan Shannon wrote: defend our civilization from this Islamic terrorism That’s a very us and them attitude and about as useful as "defend our Islamic civilisation from this western oppression" I don’t agree with either but its interesting that you can take these stupid statements from either side and swap a few terms and not tell the difference. Go on Stan, let me have it, I have a quiet afternoon to fill
Well, fine, I've got news for you pal - it is us vs them, whether you like it or not. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
-
I'm sure some of Anne Frank's nieghbors thought it all a terrible terrible mistake too... "Art doesn't want to be familiar. It wants to astonish us. Or, in some cases, to enrage us. It wants to move us. To touch us. Not accommodate us, make us comfortable." -- Jamake Highwater Toasty0.com My Grandkids
Sorry, I don't understand the analogy. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
-
Well, fine, I've got news for you pal - it is us vs them, whether you like it or not. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
-
(talk about your strawman) So, what you are saying is that if we take any action at all to physically defend ourselves than we are causing ethinic cleansing? Were we guilty of ethnic cleansing when fighting the Germans? The Japanese? That was an us or them situation also. It turned out alright. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
-
(talk about your strawman) So, what you are saying is that if we take any action at all to physically defend ourselves than we are causing ethinic cleansing? Were we guilty of ethnic cleansing when fighting the Germans? The Japanese? That was an us or them situation also. It turned out alright. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
I made no reference to defence of any type. My point is that if you classify "all of them" to be the enemy then you are implying that you want to kill all Muslims which is in my opinion ethnic cleansing. You (its not we, I am not American) were not guilty of ethnic cleansing when fighting the Germans or the Japanese because there was never a desire to destroy them as a whole. Germany and Japan still exist as do German and Japanese people. And thank god too because I love listening to Ramstien (German band) on my Ipod (electronic device with lots of components from Japan).
-
That will, if required, come in due course. We have only had two mistaken fatal shootings in the UK in the past decade, so prosecutions are understandably going to be rare, but in the case of Mr. Stanley the officers where charged (though later overturned, IMO rightly based on the information they were given).
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
David Wulff wrote: We have only had two mistaken fatal shootings in the UK in the past decade, so prosecutions are understandably going to be rare http://www.freedomtocare.org/page328.htm[^] John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
-
I made no reference to defence of any type. My point is that if you classify "all of them" to be the enemy then you are implying that you want to kill all Muslims which is in my opinion ethnic cleansing. You (its not we, I am not American) were not guilty of ethnic cleansing when fighting the Germans or the Japanese because there was never a desire to destroy them as a whole. Germany and Japan still exist as do German and Japanese people. And thank god too because I love listening to Ramstien (German band) on my Ipod (electronic device with lots of components from Japan).
Josh Gray wrote: I made no reference to defence of any type. My point is that if you classify "all of them" to be the enemy then you are implying that you want to kill all Muslims which is in my opinion ethnic cleansing. My original post, which you cited, clearly referred to "islamic terrorism", not to Islam itself. I have no concerns at all about Islam except to the extent that it is currently producing some large scale terrorism overtly commited to the destruction of western civilization. That isn't my fault, it is the terrorists fault. Just as with Germany and Japan, we have to insist on unconditional surrender of the terrorists. And just as with Germany and Japan, we have to do what ever it takes to achieve that. Screw political correctness. Josh Gray wrote: ) on my Ipod (electronic device with lots of components from Japan). Yeah, I have one of those also, except, as my son observed, I'm probably the only person on the planet who has an IPod loaded with music from the 60's. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
-
Josh Gray wrote: I made no reference to defence of any type. My point is that if you classify "all of them" to be the enemy then you are implying that you want to kill all Muslims which is in my opinion ethnic cleansing. My original post, which you cited, clearly referred to "islamic terrorism", not to Islam itself. I have no concerns at all about Islam except to the extent that it is currently producing some large scale terrorism overtly commited to the destruction of western civilization. That isn't my fault, it is the terrorists fault. Just as with Germany and Japan, we have to insist on unconditional surrender of the terrorists. And just as with Germany and Japan, we have to do what ever it takes to achieve that. Screw political correctness. Josh Gray wrote: ) on my Ipod (electronic device with lots of components from Japan). Yeah, I have one of those also, except, as my son observed, I'm probably the only person on the planet who has an IPod loaded with music from the 60's. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
I have the best of Bob Dylan and some Neil Young, Credence and a few other oldies. Good music is good music no matter when it was written. You make some valid points. Stan Shannon wrote: unconditional surrender of the terrorists That sounds good but what does it really mean? I cant imagine Osama signing a Treaty of Versaille or anything like that. I think the fundamental issues here are very different to WWII and a direct comparison is not very useful.
-
fakefur wrote: But the cop in question WAS NOT being threatened. His life and the lives of other people on the train were being threatened in his eyes, because he thought that the man was a terrorist. Wrongly as it turned out, but that is what he thought, so he had a duty of care to protect himself and the general public. Intelligence gathering failures and the officer having a wizz :doh: as the man left the house seem to have contributed to them misidentifying him as a terrorist, but on the information the armed officers received, that he *was* a terrorist, I can't see that they had much choice.
-
David Wulff wrote: We have only had two mistaken fatal shootings in the UK in the past decade, so prosecutions are understandably going to be rare http://www.freedomtocare.org/page328.htm[^] John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
I was referring only to fatalities, and it seems only the Met police force, but we are still looking at (with this case) 9 mistaken shootings of civilians out of a reported approx. 15,000 operations. Worth pointing out - all of the recomendations discussed there that are appropriate at this time in the investigation and events after the shooting have been followed in this specific case. The exception is the one about staffing police authorities, but with independant organisations like the IPCC involved I'm not convinced that is necessary. Looking to the prosecution record, which is probably something you wanted to bring up, if a case goes to the High Court twice and the officers involved are acquitted of unlawful killing, then that should be good enough for everyone to accept. Most civilians aren't offered that chance without years of campaigning from their prison cells. Talk about holding the police to the same standards!
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
