A Bunch Of Crybabies?
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Why is it that so many people complain about development/evolution of software? Every time MS comes with something new and fancy people go "I Can not afford to develop stuff like that" or "I don't like it, I'm switching to Linux" So maybe you cannot afford to hire a designer for your application, but should progress stop because of that? Just compare todays 24-bit antialiased icons an fancy XP GUI with Win 3.1. Compare the difference between now and the previews of Vista/Office 12 and the difference is not that big. We have all survived the progress so far and we will continue to do so if we spend our energy on our business instead of complaining... And why is it that every time people see something new which they don't fancy thay say they switch to Linux or something? Please do so, I don't know that many successfull commercial applications for Linux and I don't think we will see many any time soon. Please do realize that MS has a lot of money to use on usability tests and they DO spend loads of money on it. Include that with the fact that most developers don't know anything about usability and designing usefull GUI's and even a kid can figure out who us right when it comes to GUI's: MS or the small developer shop... - Anders
If the users really want the flashy GUI and aren't going to pick your less-flashy UI over your competitor's very-flashy UI, on Windows, they aren't going to pick your less-flashy UI running on Linux rather than your competitor's flashy UI on Windows. Either you do flashy UI or you don't. Your customer will decide whether they prefer flashy UI or basic. Avalon should make it easier to do flashy UI if you want to - but if your app serves a useful purpose, personally, I'd accept the basic UI. But only on Windows - I'm not going to change operating systems to use your app. Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder
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Why is it that so many people complain about development/evolution of software? Every time MS comes with something new and fancy people go "I Can not afford to develop stuff like that" or "I don't like it, I'm switching to Linux" So maybe you cannot afford to hire a designer for your application, but should progress stop because of that? Just compare todays 24-bit antialiased icons an fancy XP GUI with Win 3.1. Compare the difference between now and the previews of Vista/Office 12 and the difference is not that big. We have all survived the progress so far and we will continue to do so if we spend our energy on our business instead of complaining... And why is it that every time people see something new which they don't fancy thay say they switch to Linux or something? Please do so, I don't know that many successfull commercial applications for Linux and I don't think we will see many any time soon. Please do realize that MS has a lot of money to use on usability tests and they DO spend loads of money on it. Include that with the fact that most developers don't know anything about usability and designing usefull GUI's and even a kid can figure out who us right when it comes to GUI's: MS or the small developer shop... - Anders
i agree the difference with the win31 and (say) the win95 -> win xp interface is tremendous and worthwhile ... it actually made things easier to use in a lot of ways ... but vista? now because it has shiny translucent buttons it makes programs work better? and no u wont see many "commercial apps for linux" because thats not how linux works generally ... what u will see is some _extremely_ successful apps for linux (and more coming every day) developed by individuals / companies who have a different philosophy to the typical commercial companies its not about "i dont like it so im going somewhere else" or "i cant afford it" ... its about "my customers want..." and thats where i earn my living and will continue to do so ;)
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Why is it that so many people complain about development/evolution of software? Every time MS comes with something new and fancy people go "I Can not afford to develop stuff like that" or "I don't like it, I'm switching to Linux" So maybe you cannot afford to hire a designer for your application, but should progress stop because of that? Just compare todays 24-bit antialiased icons an fancy XP GUI with Win 3.1. Compare the difference between now and the previews of Vista/Office 12 and the difference is not that big. We have all survived the progress so far and we will continue to do so if we spend our energy on our business instead of complaining... And why is it that every time people see something new which they don't fancy thay say they switch to Linux or something? Please do so, I don't know that many successfull commercial applications for Linux and I don't think we will see many any time soon. Please do realize that MS has a lot of money to use on usability tests and they DO spend loads of money on it. Include that with the fact that most developers don't know anything about usability and designing usefull GUI's and even a kid can figure out who us right when it comes to GUI's: MS or the small developer shop... - Anders
There's a great quote just posted on Rory Blythe's blog[^] regarding computer hardware and the more powerful stuff modern applications require. Seems fitting here, especially the ending bits.
You’re lucky you aren’t all Apple customers, by the way. This business of hardware obsolescence happens much faster Over There. I paid almost $3,000 for an apple a couple years ago, and within a year I was reading about all the UI features in the next OS that I’d be missing out on because my computer was more than three minutes old. This could have happened in the Windows world years ago, but it’s happening next year instead, and next year is the perfect time for it. High end video cards are becoming ubiquitous, and if you’re computing with less than 512 MB of RAM (on any modern platform), then you should be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. Sure, this is all going to cost money, and not everybody is making craploads of dough, but by the time Vista comes out, you ought to be able to get a Vista system for fairly cheap. If you want to buy a system now that can run Vista, then you’ll pay a premium. But, wait until the OS is actually out, and I think you’ll find it’s a very different story. But that’s progress, and it’s always been like this. For Vista to do what we want it to simply requires beefier hardware. I’m sure there’s still some poorly washed Berkeley dropout in his basement somewhere, flipping switches on the front of his Altair, complaining about all these advances in computing like “keyboards” and “storage devices”.
:)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
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i agree the difference with the win31 and (say) the win95 -> win xp interface is tremendous and worthwhile ... it actually made things easier to use in a lot of ways ... but vista? now because it has shiny translucent buttons it makes programs work better? and no u wont see many "commercial apps for linux" because thats not how linux works generally ... what u will see is some _extremely_ successful apps for linux (and more coming every day) developed by individuals / companies who have a different philosophy to the typical commercial companies its not about "i dont like it so im going somewhere else" or "i cant afford it" ... its about "my customers want..." and thats where i earn my living and will continue to do so ;)
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Why is it that so many people complain about development/evolution of software? Every time MS comes with something new and fancy people go "I Can not afford to develop stuff like that" or "I don't like it, I'm switching to Linux" So maybe you cannot afford to hire a designer for your application, but should progress stop because of that? Just compare todays 24-bit antialiased icons an fancy XP GUI with Win 3.1. Compare the difference between now and the previews of Vista/Office 12 and the difference is not that big. We have all survived the progress so far and we will continue to do so if we spend our energy on our business instead of complaining... And why is it that every time people see something new which they don't fancy thay say they switch to Linux or something? Please do so, I don't know that many successfull commercial applications for Linux and I don't think we will see many any time soon. Please do realize that MS has a lot of money to use on usability tests and they DO spend loads of money on it. Include that with the fact that most developers don't know anything about usability and designing usefull GUI's and even a kid can figure out who us right when it comes to GUI's: MS or the small developer shop... - Anders
Anders Molin wrote: Why is it that so many people complain about development/evolution of software? People always do. Change is often resisted whether it has cost associated with it or not. I see it constantly in 3d visualization. It doesn't matter if someone came up with a new way of doing things, change is bad. There are still proponents of strip charts and line-vector drawn landscapes. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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l a u r e n wrote: its about "my customers want..." and thats where i earn my living and will continue to do so Exactly. Well said Lauren.
That's fine, best of luck to you both. My question is, why the whining and wailing about Vista, complaining "what's the point", then? After all, most of us on CP make a living writing software for Windows, but do you see us complaining about how long it takes to compile the latest Linux 2.6 kernel, or how such a poor user interface could've made it into a released product like GIMP? Yet we consistently hear from the Linux camp about how Microsoft's new software sucks, is pointless, is too expensive, requires too expensive hardware, eats too much memory, is a rip-off of Company XYZ's product, and so on. It really gets tiresome, and I think is what the original poster was getting at.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
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There's a great quote just posted on Rory Blythe's blog[^] regarding computer hardware and the more powerful stuff modern applications require. Seems fitting here, especially the ending bits.
You’re lucky you aren’t all Apple customers, by the way. This business of hardware obsolescence happens much faster Over There. I paid almost $3,000 for an apple a couple years ago, and within a year I was reading about all the UI features in the next OS that I’d be missing out on because my computer was more than three minutes old. This could have happened in the Windows world years ago, but it’s happening next year instead, and next year is the perfect time for it. High end video cards are becoming ubiquitous, and if you’re computing with less than 512 MB of RAM (on any modern platform), then you should be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. Sure, this is all going to cost money, and not everybody is making craploads of dough, but by the time Vista comes out, you ought to be able to get a Vista system for fairly cheap. If you want to buy a system now that can run Vista, then you’ll pay a premium. But, wait until the OS is actually out, and I think you’ll find it’s a very different story. But that’s progress, and it’s always been like this. For Vista to do what we want it to simply requires beefier hardware. I’m sure there’s still some poorly washed Berkeley dropout in his basement somewhere, flipping switches on the front of his Altair, complaining about all these advances in computing like “keyboards” and “storage devices”.
:)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
funny that ... i had never really thought of my mom as a "poorly washed Berkeley dropout in a basement somewhere" ... she just wants to do her work on her computer and doesnt see why she should spend hundreds of pounds more every couple of years to do the same thing X|
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That's fine, best of luck to you both. My question is, why the whining and wailing about Vista, complaining "what's the point", then? After all, most of us on CP make a living writing software for Windows, but do you see us complaining about how long it takes to compile the latest Linux 2.6 kernel, or how such a poor user interface could've made it into a released product like GIMP? Yet we consistently hear from the Linux camp about how Microsoft's new software sucks, is pointless, is too expensive, requires too expensive hardware, eats too much memory, is a rip-off of Company XYZ's product, and so on. It really gets tiresome, and I think is what the original poster was getting at.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
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funny that ... i had never really thought of my mom as a "poorly washed Berkeley dropout in a basement somewhere" ... she just wants to do her work on her computer and doesnt see why she should spend hundreds of pounds more every couple of years to do the same thing X|
That's just it, she doesn't have to continue upgrading. But you can't expect software advances to continue running on old hardware, can you? Let her run card games, a web browser, and a word processor. She just can't expect to run Windows Vista on a Pentium 133Mhz, just like I can't expect to run Doom 3 on my Nintendo Entertainment System.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
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l a u r e n wrote: criticise what u know not what u imagine k? Take your own advice, I've used Linux.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
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That's just it, she doesn't have to continue upgrading. But you can't expect software advances to continue running on old hardware, can you? Let her run card games, a web browser, and a word processor. She just can't expect to run Windows Vista on a Pentium 133Mhz, just like I can't expect to run Doom 3 on my Nintendo Entertainment System.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
well thats great then but will the os she uses be supported into the future? will there be updates and security releases? when the advances are valid for good reasons then great: "mom upgrade beacuse u will get x y and z that u cant get now" as opposed to: "mom upgrade now because u will get... errrrr shiny buttons" uh huh
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 12:46 Friday 16th September, 2005 -
l a u r e n wrote: criticise what u know not what u imagine k? Take your own advice, I've used Linux.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
and ive written software for all the platforms since u were in diapers ... using doesnt mean u know ... it means u used it once in a while ... like i said try talking about what u know for a change [edit] ok i didnt see the link u posted above ... excuse me while i try to stop laughing ... i dont want to rain on ur parade here but using a monolive cd isnt actually the same as "knowing linux" judah :laugh: [/edit]
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 12:43 Friday 16th September, 2005 -
That's fine, best of luck to you both. My question is, why the whining and wailing about Vista, complaining "what's the point", then? After all, most of us on CP make a living writing software for Windows, but do you see us complaining about how long it takes to compile the latest Linux 2.6 kernel, or how such a poor user interface could've made it into a released product like GIMP? Yet we consistently hear from the Linux camp about how Microsoft's new software sucks, is pointless, is too expensive, requires too expensive hardware, eats too much memory, is a rip-off of Company XYZ's product, and so on. It really gets tiresome, and I think is what the original poster was getting at.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote: Yet we consistently hear from the Linux camp about how Microsoft's new software sucks, is pointless No we don't - not here on CP anyway. Slashdot, yes. :) And, besides, you are implying that we should all toe the party line - there's no fun in that Judah. :) :) I will give my customers what they want, and I tell you right now, they don't give a damn about Vista. So why should I care? Hell, I know of plenty of big financial companies that are still running Windows 2000. It seems to be that MS have ripped some of the genuinely useful stuff out of Vista so they can get it to market quickly. I'm sure the new UI, with it's usefulless transparent windows (ha ha) will be fab, but I'm not wetting my pants just yet. I have made my career off the back of MS Windows, and, to be frank, if people like me are jaded, bored and uninspired, then perhaps, just perhaps, MS are not the company they used to be? Money talks. My customers come first. If they want Linux apps, or web apps running off the back of Apache/PHP, then that's what I'll give them. Period.
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
l a u r e n wrote: u dont have to compile anything True, but here's the install instructions direct from the openoffice web site. Not exactly straightforward, is it?
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Make sure you are root
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Download the tarball from OpenOffice.org (the download can be done from any user account and then moved), and extract the tarball (.tar.gz file) to a temporary directory.
"/tmp" is a good place for example. For the purpose of this example, I will assume you have downloaded the tarball to your/tmpdirectory. -
Open a terminal, such as xterm or konsole.
To extract the tarball, change to the/tmpdirectory:cd /tmp
and extract the tarball: "tar -zxvf [tarball name]". -
This should create a directory "
OOo_1.1x_LinuxIntel_install".
("x" in this sense is a suffix to version 1.1 that will depend on the version you downloaded.) -
Change into this directory:
cd OOo_1.1x_LinuxIntel_install. -
Execute the setup script for a "network" installation.
This is done with the following command: "./setup -net"
This is a friendly installation process which will prompt you for a destination directory and other OpenOffice installation options. When the setup is finished, you should have a complete "network" installation installed in the destination directory you specified. Tips on installing OpenOffice.org with an NFS setup can be found on our nfs tips page.**Note:**It is NOT advisable to install over an existing OpenOffice installation. If you want to use the same destination as an existing version of OpenOffice, delete the contents of the existing directory!
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Part of the installation process includes telling OpenOffice about your Java installation. Normally this can be automatically found or you may need to supply it, or install the JRE supplied with OpenOffice if you don't already have it installed. (But see Prerequisites for more control over this.)
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Each user on your syste
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l a u r e n wrote: u dont have to compile anything True, but here's the install instructions direct from the openoffice web site. Not exactly straightforward, is it?
-
Make sure you are root
-
Download the tarball from OpenOffice.org (the download can be done from any user account and then moved), and extract the tarball (.tar.gz file) to a temporary directory.
"/tmp" is a good place for example. For the purpose of this example, I will assume you have downloaded the tarball to your/tmpdirectory. -
Open a terminal, such as xterm or konsole.
To extract the tarball, change to the/tmpdirectory:cd /tmp
and extract the tarball: "tar -zxvf [tarball name]". -
This should create a directory "
OOo_1.1x_LinuxIntel_install".
("x" in this sense is a suffix to version 1.1 that will depend on the version you downloaded.) -
Change into this directory:
cd OOo_1.1x_LinuxIntel_install. -
Execute the setup script for a "network" installation.
This is done with the following command: "./setup -net"
This is a friendly installation process which will prompt you for a destination directory and other OpenOffice installation options. When the setup is finished, you should have a complete "network" installation installed in the destination directory you specified. Tips on installing OpenOffice.org with an NFS setup can be found on our nfs tips page.**Note:**It is NOT advisable to install over an existing OpenOffice installation. If you want to use the same destination as an existing version of OpenOffice, delete the contents of the existing directory!
-
Part of the installation process includes telling OpenOffice about your Java installation. Normally this can be automatically found or you may need to supply it, or install the JRE supplied with OpenOffice if you don't already have it installed. (But see Prerequisites for more control over this.)
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Each user on your syste
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well thats great then but will the os she uses be supported into the future? will there be updates and security releases? when the advances are valid for good reasons then great: "mom upgrade beacuse u will get x y and z that u cant get now" as opposed to: "mom upgrade now because u will get... errrrr shiny buttons" uh huh
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 12:46 Friday 16th September, 2005l a u r e n wrote: but will the os she uses be supported into the future? Red herring. You yourself cannot guarantee that Red Hat, or any other company will continue developing their Linux Distro. Or can you guarantee that the ambivalent crowd of open source developers who work on an Linux-based OS will keep pumping out patches and updates that work for all versions -- even old versions -- of an OS? No! I will recommend people upgrade from XP to Vista because there's more protection against malware, there's built-in features for letting your kids run only certain games, let your kids have a limited time on the computer, a new limited user account model that prevents malware from doing damage if run, a new set of applications that run in a managed security sandbox, an more secure browser, simpler file and printer sharing, reliability features in startup repair tools, auto-diagnosis, and automatic error correction tools, improved performance in Fast Startup technology, instant sleep awake, faster logons with non-system services starting as non-critical background processes (fewer processes to start up), new organization techniques such as virtual folders, instant searching, oh, and let's not forget your pretty buttons: one major bane of Linux-based OSes is that developers assume UIs are unimportant. NEVER understimate the importance of a graceful, elegant, pretty UI. Just ask Google. Let us not forget, lest you come back and say 'you can get all those thing by running XYZ!', that unlike OSX or other Unix-based operating systems, with Windows Vista, my mom can still run the applications she uses on a daily basis without having to learn anything new.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
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l a u r e n wrote: thats cos its beta and u know it Simply not true. That text is from the page titled "Instructions for Installing and Setting Up OpenOffice.org 1.1.x". That is the stable release, isn't it? l a u r e n wrote: name calling Name calling? What? My point is that the Linux install is *much* more complex than the corresponding Windows install for the same product.
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That's fine, best of luck to you both. My question is, why the whining and wailing about Vista, complaining "what's the point", then? After all, most of us on CP make a living writing software for Windows, but do you see us complaining about how long it takes to compile the latest Linux 2.6 kernel, or how such a poor user interface could've made it into a released product like GIMP? Yet we consistently hear from the Linux camp about how Microsoft's new software sucks, is pointless, is too expensive, requires too expensive hardware, eats too much memory, is a rip-off of Company XYZ's product, and so on. It really gets tiresome, and I think is what the original poster was getting at.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
It all comes back to the almighty dollar. I'll pay some money up front so I don't have to spend two hours reading some guys how-to guide just to set up my IM program. At the same time, if I'm trying to just test some stuff or just get general use from a system then the cheaper the better. Same way for companies also. Pay a guy less to work with Windows because in theory it's easy to use and you can teach a customer service person to work it(trust me, I've seen it) or get the "free" software and pay a "geek" more to administrate it and risk him leaving and you not knowing anything about your system. Trade-offs and I agree here that the argument is getting old. I've used both systems and think both are great. I use Windows primarily because I haven't got time to teach my wife how to use Linux. One of these days though... ------------------------------------- Do not do what has already been done.
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l a u r e n wrote: but will the os she uses be supported into the future? Red herring. You yourself cannot guarantee that Red Hat, or any other company will continue developing their Linux Distro. Or can you guarantee that the ambivalent crowd of open source developers who work on an Linux-based OS will keep pumping out patches and updates that work for all versions -- even old versions -- of an OS? No! I will recommend people upgrade from XP to Vista because there's more protection against malware, there's built-in features for letting your kids run only certain games, let your kids have a limited time on the computer, a new limited user account model that prevents malware from doing damage if run, a new set of applications that run in a managed security sandbox, an more secure browser, simpler file and printer sharing, reliability features in startup repair tools, auto-diagnosis, and automatic error correction tools, improved performance in Fast Startup technology, instant sleep awake, faster logons with non-system services starting as non-critical background processes (fewer processes to start up), new organization techniques such as virtual folders, instant searching, oh, and let's not forget your pretty buttons: one major bane of Linux-based OSes is that developers assume UIs are unimportant. NEVER understimate the importance of a graceful, elegant, pretty UI. Just ask Google. Let us not forget, lest you come back and say 'you can get all those thing by running XYZ!', that unlike OSX or other Unix-based operating systems, with Windows Vista, my mom can still run the applications she uses on a daily basis without having to learn anything new.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
"mom u have to get rid of that red hat thingy now cos they dont write software anymore ... they became mormons" "oh really? what will i do now?" "i'll install debian / suse / fedora / etc and put gnome back on it and u wont notice the difference" "ok ... how much will it cost me?" "same as the other one mom ... nothing" "oh ok ... what about all my documents?" "they will be fine cos we are using the same programs we just changed the distro" "do i need to know what a distro is?" "no mom" malaware ... linux doesnt have any ... period [edit] have u actually looked at gnome 2.12?? do u actually understand the concept of open source development? obviously not [/edit]
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 13:05 Friday 16th September, 2005 -
and ive written software for all the platforms since u were in diapers ... using doesnt mean u know ... it means u used it once in a while ... like i said try talking about what u know for a change [edit] ok i didnt see the link u posted above ... excuse me while i try to stop laughing ... i dont want to rain on ur parade here but using a monolive cd isnt actually the same as "knowing linux" judah :laugh: [/edit]
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 12:43 Friday 16th September, 2005You're going off on a pointless tangent by saying, "Look, I'm better than you because I've used Linux and you've just used a Linux live cd." Well, I'm glad you feel proud of yourself that you can run Linux and know it better than I can. But you never once rebutted my points, Lauren. You don't hear us complaining about Linux, do you? This is what the original poster was getting at, your incessant whining about Microsoft. It's tiresome. What's more, your belittling attitude towards anyone not gung-ho about Linux is quite immature.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango