Iraqis? are they worth it
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Diego Moita wrote: Doesn't look so much like that, from down here... I'd like to have an example. Just so I can be educated.
The support of US to most of the dictatorships of Latin America in the 20th century (Somoza, Pinochet, Argentina's juntas, Brazil's first dictators in the 60's, etc), the support of Reagan to the terrorists which threw Angola into civil war and made it the country record in land mines, the Corean war, the support to some of the dirtiest dictators in muslin world (Saudi family, Mubarak, Musharaf). There are many other cases. They probably look small to you because we are small and you're big. But one small thing in America can have a big impact among us. I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Well, after the previous post, and, from what an old friend of my fathers said, who was in Iraq in the 30's as a soldier, one has to wonder whether these people deserve someone like Sadam to rule them. They are, quite clearly, incapable of governing their own society effectively, and steeped in violence of the most brutal sort. And havent changed since the 30's. Should we even bother being there? Nunc est bibendum!
It's a moot point. We went in. We fucked up their country. We toppled their government. As much as I vehemently disagree with having done all of those things, we have no choice but to rebuild their country. And we are going to be paying for it. Paying a lot. For a long, long, long time.
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Stan Shannon wrote: Isn't that somewhat unavoidable though? Obviously, no nation ever attains the power to be an empire, which we certainly have, without doing something right. 100% right Stan Shannon wrote: And, having achieved that level of power, why would any of them then begin doing things differently? Well... if I got you right, you're claiming the US to be a different empire, right? If you were different you would... Stan Shannon wrote: the US is using the power of empire in a far more responsible way than any nation that has gone before us. Doesn't look so much like that, from down here... Stan Shannon wrote: most of the problems those places have are of their own making, not ours. Their cultures, tradions and politics are just f***ed up and would be failing even if the US had never existed. You can use the US as an excuse all you like, but at the end of the day, you are going to be left with the same problems. And that is just the bitter pill you have to swallow. I don't mind swallow that pill. We do need to learn how to make sound, democratic institutions by ourselves (I still hope we'll do). And I am not blaming the US for the mess we make and are. I am complaining about american solutions. They are not even meant to be solutions, so stop selling them as that. I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Diego Moita wrote: I am complaining about american solutions. They are not even meant to be solutions, so stop selling them as that. And you have every right to complain. The US does assert influence over people who have no power to democratically influence our policies. I certainly think I would be upset in the same situation. But, I think you are wrong that we (and by 'we' I mean even our federal representatives) do, in fact, believe that we are doing what is in the best general interest of the global community. Ironically, I think it is that very "do gooder" attitude which so often gets us into trouble. I absolutely believe, for example, that Bush and company actually went into Iraq with the best of intentions. To help the Iraqis to establish democracy and security. That is what has caused all the problems. If we had only been interested in the oil or whatever, the entire operation would have probably gone far more efficiently and would already be over. In other words, I think the world might be better off if we actually were what you percieve us to be - an unapologetic empire overtly trying to militarily control the resources of the world rather than a clumsy giant causing as many messes as it cleans up. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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fat_boy wrote: They are, quite clearly, incapable of governing their own society effectively, and steeped in violence of the most brutal sort. And havent changed since the 30's. From what we've seen from Katrina, America appears to be a deeply racist, violent and backward country. Are Americans worth helping/saving? fat_boy wrote: deserve someone like Sadam to rule them. I have always been of the opinion that people will get the leaders that they need/deserve. Sure that isn't fair and we all want the best for people, nobody from a (pseudo)democracy wants others to be in a dictatorship. Yet if a nation is strong enough to fight for a better nation then they deserve it. It took the western European nations centuries to get rid of absolute monarchies. It will take a long time for the east to rid themselves of dicatorships and the like. But only if they WANT to rid themselves of them. What we are seeing is that there are a lot of people who don't want it yet or at least don't know how to handle it. Essentially you are giving feudal England's peasants the right to choose their own government, what would they know about it, if all they'd known was a monarchy? I would also like to point out that it was civil wars, revolutions and years of compomises and reforms that got the west it's own 'freedom', not millitary action started and led by foreign nations.
Jonathan Newman blog.nonny.com [^]
Jon Newman wrote: From what we've seen from Katrina, America appears to be a deeply racist, violent and backward country. Are Americans worth helping/saving? There's that "quality" BBC news again!!! X| "For a fun 2nd term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase 'contentious but futile protest vote by democrats.' By the time Jeb Bush is elected, you'll be so wasted you won't even notice the war in Syria." Jon Stewart
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Jon Newman wrote: From what we've seen from Katrina, America appears to be a deeply racist Care to give an example of this so called "deeply racist"? Jon Newman wrote: violent THere is violence in every country. Why are people in the UK running around with axes chopping at people? Sounds pretty violent to me. Jon Newman wrote: I have always been of the opinion that people will get the leaders that they need/deserve. Always? That is a crazy statement. Jon Newman wrote: (pseudo)democracy What counrty are you talking about? FYI the US is a Republic not a Democracy. Jon Newman wrote: not millitary action started and led by foreign nations. Your short term history wrong. All Sadamn had to do was comply. Even the UN and Blix says he was not complying. He started the war. Western allies finished it.
kgaddy wrote: All Sadamn had to do was comply. Even the UN and Blix says he was not complying I must have missed it in all the hullaballoo over Hurricane Katrina. Did Dubya find WMDs in Iraq?
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It's a moot point. We went in. We fucked up their country. We toppled their government. As much as I vehemently disagree with having done all of those things, we have no choice but to rebuild their country. And we are going to be paying for it. Paying a lot. For a long, long, long time.
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Anonymous wrote: Oil doesn't grow on trees you know. Well sure it does, you just need to be more specific. Olive trees produce olive oil. If you believe the claims, there are certain[^] trees that are used to produce diesel fuel. I know that you were just using the opportunity to slam Bush, but at least come out of hiding long enough to do it with some backbone. Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read -- modified at 11:00 Tuesday 20th September, 2005
Gary Kirkham wrote: I know that you were just using the opportunity to slam Bush, but at least come out of hiding long enough to do it with some backbone. will it make any difference to you asswipes? You righties are very good at asswiping. If you had some backbone you would have admitted yours or your leaders' mistakes. Can't blame Bush because he does only what a poltician would do. But you bleating asswipes are disgusting and dispicable!
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is this for real ??[^] it was sponsored by Isreal but nonetheless... The lead article in the August issue of the Israel Medical Association Journal reports success in lowering infant mortality rates among Arabs in the Western Galilee. These rates being generally twice as high among Israeli Arabs as among Israeli Jews, by 2002 an Israeli health program launched in the late 1980s had lowered the rate among Western Galilee Arabs to about 1.5 that of the Jews in the area. The program found three main factors causing the high rates among the Arabs: infections, home births, and diseases resulting from inbreeding. About 40 percent of Muslim and Druze women and 70 percent of Bedouin women in the region were found to be married to first—or second-degree relatives.
about your sister wrote: The program found three main factors causing the high rates among the Arabs: infections, home births, and diseases resulting from inbreeding. About 40 percent of Muslim and Druze women and 70 percent of Bedouin women in the region were found to be married to first—or second-degree relatives. You stop inbreeding and stop writing sh*t, you motherfu**ing dipsh*t.
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K(arl) wrote: That's why inspections were required, and were occuring. And then the war started. Not true. The Iraqis were hampering the inspections...then the war started. K(arl) wrote: Also the documents didn't lie when they said there were no chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. You do not know that. There have been nerve gas found, though not in large quanities. The problem is, you dont need large quanities to do a lot of damage. http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1873019&nav=EyB0NBHX http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/18/115119.shtml K(arl) wrote: Now we know SH was right: there was no WMD in Iraq. Not the point. Let's put it this way. If a madman goes into a house and shoots a lady inside. Then tells the police outside, "I threw away the gun, dont shoot" but will not come outside and show his hands. And will not let the other occupants of the house out. Do you believe him? Or do you try to take hime out and presume the worst, that he still may have that gun. K(arl) wrote: And BTW resolution 1441 didn't authorize for a military action. Never said it did. There should have been another resolution to take action after 1441 was not in compliance. That said, 1441 was useless. If the UN is going to pass resolutions and not enfore them, what use are they? Just a waste of time.
kgaddy wrote: The Iraqis were hampering the inspections Look at the March, 7 2003 report[^], the last one made by Blix before the invasion: "On 14 February, I reported to the Council that the Iraqi side had become more active in taking and proposing steps, which potentially might shed new light on unresolved disarmament issues. Even a week ago, when the current quarterly report was finalized, there was still relatively little tangible progress to note. Hence, the cautious formulations in the report before you. As of today, there is more [...] Lethal weapons are being destroyed [...] There is a significant Iraqi effort underway to clarify a major source of uncertainty as to the quantities of biological and chemical weapons, which were unilaterally destroyed in 1991 [...] One can hardly avoid the impression that, after a period of somewhat reluctant cooperation, there has been an acceleration of initiatives from the Iraqi side since the end of January". kgaddy wrote: _http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1873019&nav=EyB0NBHX_ "Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to the Persian Gulf War", a time when Western Nations were supportive of SH, and helped him to build such weapons[^]. Many toxic ammunitions were used during the Iran-Iraq war. It is higly probable munitions from this period will be found, as after any conflict. For instance, in China, in August 2003, 1 man was killed and 43 were wounded by mustard gas bombs found on a building site. These bombs were japanese, made during WW2. In France, non explosed ammunitions in the ground (from WW1 and WW2) are estimated to 2 millions of tons. Toxic bombs are found every year in France and Belgium (in April, 20 tons of ammunitions were found in belgium, among them shells containing yperite). There is probably tons of toxic ammunitions still in the ground of the battlefields of the Iran/Iraq war. kgaddy wrote: _http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/18/115119.shtml_ This article talks about precursors, tha
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bugDanny wrote: it could fall under the point of the earlier post "(pseudo)democracy Yes, but to be honest I do not think that was his intent. From the tone of the post I believe he was trying to take a swing at the US.
kgaddy wrote: I believe he was trying to take a swing at the US. I was also 'taking a swing' at our country and many other western nations as well. Neither of them have a true democracy. They both try their best, but neither get it quite right, hence 'pseudo'. What is democracy when our government was elected by only 30-40% of the population, hence 60% of the country not being represented by them? I know this isn't going to change for a long time because it gives the government power, but it doesn't mean it's the right way to run a 'democratic' country.
Jonathan Newman blog.nonny.com [^]
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So what were they doing back in the 30's? Bringing freedom and democracy or getting rid of WMD's? Quran Translation Intro Discover
Oh just the usual empire stuff ;) No, seriously, after the first world war, during which many of the arab nations sided with germany, they fell to the british and french as protectorates, in line with the versailles treaty of 1919. We, the french and british, arbitrarially drew lines on a map and created modern europe, and the middle east. I guess we fiddled with the politics, tried to set up a friendly dictator, or so. Nunc est bibendum!
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It is worth the effort. Those who do wish to live in a more modern society certainly deserve the opportunity to try to achieve it. It may well be a futile effort, but if that is true what are our other options? Do we simply continue to tolerate the violence and intolerance such societies spawn and try to defend ourselves from it with ever more draconian abuses to civil liberties? Do we nuke them? Do we buy them off? Do we isolate them? If this effort doesn't work, one of the others must be resorted to. So,yeah, its worth it. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
And when it starts to cost lives, lives of soldiers, lives of innocents, is it not better to walk away from it and wait till that society is capable of being 'modern'? Do we nuke them? No, we stop using oil, and seal those countries up. Dont go near them, dont trade with them, leave them to it. Let their society mature at its own rate rather than at a rate imposed by us. Nunc est bibendum!
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Jon Newman wrote: I was just making the point that this doesn't mean they arn't worth sa Sounds like a far cry from your first post. Whatever. Jon Newman wrote: And that is a valid reason to entireley remove the government of a country Yes, absolutly. Ask the citizens of Kuwait. Jon Newman wrote: I'm sorry that the word 'sovereign' means something to me. Me too, Sadamn threatened of sovereign nations, Kuwait, Iran, Israel, Saudia Ariabia. So if the word "sovereign" really means anything to you, you would understand.
You need to read more history before you go spouting off you know. Kuwait was crerated by the alies as part of the versailles treaty. Before that it WAS part of Iraq. Ever heard the saying: 'The war to end all wars has resulted in a peace to end all peace'? If not you have now, think about it, it was said abouty the versailles treaty. Considder what drawing those borders did, and how difficult reshaping them has been. Look at Yugoslavia, Czechoslavika, Ukraine, Moldovia, Georgia, Chechnya. All problems associated with redrawing national borders created by the versailles treaty. Nunc est bibendum!
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I don't necessarily agree with all of that, but just for the sake of argument, suppose I do. You still have to offer a better option. If invasion doesn't work, and sanctions don't work, what does? Most on the left appear to want to pursue an appeasement strategy. That is, try to understand what the Muslims are angry about and try our best to ease their concerns on those issues. But, once we start down that road, how far do we go? Even you have to agree that not every thing they are angry about is our fault, and much of it is simply a reflection of problems innate to their own culture. How much of that do we tolerate to try to get them to not be angry with us? I, for one, am happy to try it your way, but not until I have a concrete answer to that question. Where are you willing to draw the line and say - fuck it, give them the bayonet...? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Its not so much 'give them the bayonet' mopre a case of 'OK, thats enough you ungratefull bastards, go back to that cespit you call your society and fester there for a couple more thousand years till you stop fucking eachother up. when you are ready you can join western society, till then, go away' of course to do that we really have to get off oil. Nunc est bibendum!
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fat_boy wrote: Should we even bother being there? that question is about 3 years past its expiration date Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
If the original reason was to 'save' the iraqi people from sadam I might agree with you. Since it was to find WMD (new chemical name for crude oil) the 'saving' reason is newer, OK, last year or so. However, since the fuckkers are so ungrateful as to hand over a couple of brittish troops to Muk Tadas militia I think this is a new question. Dont forget the british have the shite region, and we really did save them from sadam. The yanks have the sunis, and alot of them might have supported sadam. Nunc est bibendum!
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I don't necessarily agree with all of that, but just for the sake of argument, suppose I do. You still have to offer a better option. If invasion doesn't work, and sanctions don't work, what does? Most on the left appear to want to pursue an appeasement strategy. That is, try to understand what the Muslims are angry about and try our best to ease their concerns on those issues. But, once we start down that road, how far do we go? Even you have to agree that not every thing they are angry about is our fault, and much of it is simply a reflection of problems innate to their own culture. How much of that do we tolerate to try to get them to not be angry with us? I, for one, am happy to try it your way, but not until I have a concrete answer to that question. Where are you willing to draw the line and say - fuck it, give them the bayonet...? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: If invasion doesn't work, and sanctions don't work, what does? First, ending the support to dictatorships. Next, most of the dictatorships failed during the 20th century because of internal movements: most of South America, Spain, Portugal, USSR and its satellites, Greece, Serbia... So IMHO the best way is to help the people inside the country to liberate themselves: give to the people inside the means to be informed with radio and TV broadcastings, help the people outside to be heard, in case of a rebellion helping the rebels, using military if needed, even with a ground support as long as there is no occupation: democracies are not good in occupation, they can't deal with it. Stan Shannon wrote: try to understand what the Muslims are angry about Not all of them, far from that! This kind of generalization worsen the problem, creating a spirit of "them against us", a thing OBL is dreaming of. Stan Shannon wrote: Where are you willing to draw the line and say - f*** it, give them the bayonet...? When they attack 'us', for example, Afghanistan. I am fully supportive of the ousting of the Talibans who ruled the country and helped to attack the US. I would also like 'we' react in case of violations of any human rights, but I believe it is irrealist, and think foreign policy should be based on Realpolitik[^] rather than ethics or theories.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
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Oh just the usual empire stuff ;) No, seriously, after the first world war, during which many of the arab nations sided with germany, they fell to the british and french as protectorates, in line with the versailles treaty of 1919. We, the french and british, arbitrarially drew lines on a map and created modern europe, and the middle east. I guess we fiddled with the politics, tried to set up a friendly dictator, or so. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: during which many of the arab nations sided with germany, they fell to the british and french as protectorates, in line with the versailles treaty of 1919. Nutnut. There was no arab nations before 1919, only the Ottoman Empire[^] and french, british and italian colonies . That's why the Brits promised to create one if the Arabs accepted to fight against the Turks. Of course, the Arabs weren't aware about the Sykes-Picot agreement... fat_boy wrote: We, the french and british, arbitrarially drew lines on a map and created modern europe I've got a map[^] from these days. It is slightly different than today's europe.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
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kgaddy wrote: The Iraqis were hampering the inspections Look at the March, 7 2003 report[^], the last one made by Blix before the invasion: "On 14 February, I reported to the Council that the Iraqi side had become more active in taking and proposing steps, which potentially might shed new light on unresolved disarmament issues. Even a week ago, when the current quarterly report was finalized, there was still relatively little tangible progress to note. Hence, the cautious formulations in the report before you. As of today, there is more [...] Lethal weapons are being destroyed [...] There is a significant Iraqi effort underway to clarify a major source of uncertainty as to the quantities of biological and chemical weapons, which were unilaterally destroyed in 1991 [...] One can hardly avoid the impression that, after a period of somewhat reluctant cooperation, there has been an acceleration of initiatives from the Iraqi side since the end of January". kgaddy wrote: _http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1873019&nav=EyB0NBHX_ "Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to the Persian Gulf War", a time when Western Nations were supportive of SH, and helped him to build such weapons[^]. Many toxic ammunitions were used during the Iran-Iraq war. It is higly probable munitions from this period will be found, as after any conflict. For instance, in China, in August 2003, 1 man was killed and 43 were wounded by mustard gas bombs found on a building site. These bombs were japanese, made during WW2. In France, non explosed ammunitions in the ground (from WW1 and WW2) are estimated to 2 millions of tons. Toxic bombs are found every year in France and Belgium (in April, 20 tons of ammunitions were found in belgium, among them shells containing yperite). There is probably tons of toxic ammunitions still in the ground of the battlefields of the Iran/Iraq war. kgaddy wrote: _http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/18/115119.shtml_ This article talks about precursors, tha
K(arl) wrote: "Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to the Persian Gulf War", a time when Western Nations were supportive of SH, and helped him to build such weapons[^]. This one is the best. So, since it was made during the first gulf war the weapons were ok. This is insane. He was supposed to get rid of them, case close. It does not matter if they were made in 1776 and George Washington helped build them. The argument is not valid. K(arl) wrote: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/18/115119.shtml This article talks about precursors, that is any chemical which may be used to produce chemical weapons, but can also be used for many other things. There is no proof these chemicals were intended to be weaponized. Not true. Read the first paragrah. There was Sarin gas in a artillery shell. If that's not a weapon what is? It does talk about precursors only to support the means and now the proof of weapons. K(arl) wrote: A very bad analogy, IMO. in the Iraq case, policemen were in the House searching for a weapon, and the madman was under heavy surveillance, a gun on the head. No, the madman was stalling. Not letting the police look in every room. The madman was given a deadline, he did not comply.
