Open Source
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You really don't need to say anything... we all know! :-D -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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l a u r e n wrote: *says nothing* Which says everything.... :laugh:;P _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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nlecren wrote: Sample code and tutorials are one thing but full blown applications Care to expand a bit? Why? Not to mention that there are plenty of full blown applications available here.
The main thing i'm getting at is how can people write software for free as a living. Maybe as a hobby but that would be an expensive one for sure in terms of hours. Applications here on cp are geared towards helping developers which is fine and great. I suspect however that applications requiring hundreds of man hours would not just be given away here for free maybe i am wrong but if that's the case how do those same people pay the bills. I can't imagine people program all night long to give stuff away and then go do another non-programming job to pay bills. Perhaps i am living in a bizzaro world where one tries to get paid for his/her profession. I'm not however trying to trash people who leave source code and articles on cp to help others. But one cannot survive on giving away work all the time
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What i am gathering here is that people are pretty angry at me for suggesting that software developers get paid. I wasn't aware that we are doing non-profit work:mad:.
The world is very complex and there are more than one way to sell or distribute a project. I get reimbursed for my hours, I have minimal intellectual rights to my products, and my employer cannot charge any federal government entity (no matter who, large or small) for anything more than distribution or training for my software. However, if someone want changes, they pay for them by contract. So is my software open-source? well... I am being paid for maintenance, code-changes, the software is freely distributed (although limited access), it is identical to many OSS distributions the difference is that mine is not available to the general public. But this type of distribution existed long before OSS was officially started. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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The world is very complex and there are more than one way to sell or distribute a project. I get reimbursed for my hours, I have minimal intellectual rights to my products, and my employer cannot charge any federal government entity (no matter who, large or small) for anything more than distribution or training for my software. However, if someone want changes, they pay for them by contract. So is my software open-source? well... I am being paid for maintenance, code-changes, the software is freely distributed (although limited access), it is identical to many OSS distributions the difference is that mine is not available to the general public. But this type of distribution existed long before OSS was officially started. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Thanks for the first non i hate your post answer Posting my opinion here was a mistake, if i could retract i would instead i will refrain from future posts but what you are saying makes sense, and that was the kind of response that expected from cp instead i was attacked for 20 straight posts
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The main thing i'm getting at is how can people write software for free as a living. Maybe as a hobby but that would be an expensive one for sure in terms of hours. Applications here on cp are geared towards helping developers which is fine and great. I suspect however that applications requiring hundreds of man hours would not just be given away here for free maybe i am wrong but if that's the case how do those same people pay the bills. I can't imagine people program all night long to give stuff away and then go do another non-programming job to pay bills. Perhaps i am living in a bizzaro world where one tries to get paid for his/her profession. I'm not however trying to trash people who leave source code and articles on cp to help others. But one cannot survive on giving away work all the time
nlecren wrote: The main thing i'm getting at is how can people write software for free as a living. Maybe as a hobby but that would be an expensive one for sure in terms of hours. I wrote a lot of software in the past and gave the source code to the customer who payed me. I'm not allowed to give it to anyone else. Why is that different to giving this source code to 1,000 people? I'm not poorer because of that. Actually, those were good contracts. nlecren wrote: I suspect however that applications requiring hundreds of man hours would not just be given away here for free This is the case. nlecren wrote: if that's the case how do those same people pay the bills. By selling other software. Have you considered that giving away some software is a good marketing strategy? nlecren wrote: But one cannot survive on giving away work all the time Who said "all the time"? Not me.
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Thanks for the first non i hate your post answer Posting my opinion here was a mistake, if i could retract i would instead i will refrain from future posts but what you are saying makes sense, and that was the kind of response that expected from cp instead i was attacked for 20 straight posts
nlecren wrote: Posting my opinion here was a mistake, It was your phrasing that was a mistake. Heavily laden with sarcasm tends to rub the wrong way.... It would have perhaps been better to simply ask your main question and leave it at that. all the "wait, bills get in the way" made the post bitter and angry at open source -- thus part of the angry response. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Ok i apologize it must be angry monday around cp here or something, suggest software developers get paid for there work and bam shot at from all areas
Is that what you suggested? I'm sorry, i thought it was a question, hence my answer. :rolleyes:
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Well it appears that everyone is not getting my overall point, im not here to kill open source im just saying that how do these open source developers live?? Do they write software for free all night and then bag groceries during the day to pay the bills???
nlecren wrote: not here to kill open source im just saying that how do these open source developers live?? Do they write software for free all night and then bag groceries during the day to pay the bills??? Ah, that's a different question. :) As a consultant, I have several paying clients, and I put time into my open source projects and articles as time is available. A couple of my clients also don't mind if I take some time to write up some nifty technology (on my $$$ though, usually). As a consultant, I need to constantly be marketing myself, and the best way to do that is not by burying my nose in a revenue generating project which keeps me invisible to the world, but rather to have a marketing "budget", as it were. Meaning, I market myself by writing articles, working on OS, etc. And the clients that have contacted me from both have definitely paid for the marketing time. So, why should a programmer have to bag groceries during the day? I do work during the day, and I put time into "free" stuff at night. Or whenever. There's a lot of flexibility in the day. Marc My website Traceract Understanding Simple Data Binding Diary Of A CEO - Preface
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Thanks for the first non i hate your post answer Posting my opinion here was a mistake, if i could retract i would instead i will refrain from future posts but what you are saying makes sense, and that was the kind of response that expected from cp instead i was attacked for 20 straight posts
nlecren wrote: instead i was attacked for 20 straight posts I don't think I attacked you. I thought I offered a decent suggestion if you are interested in selling your application commercially.
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Just wondering about something that really bothers me with open source. Ok i've heard how you write open source software and than sell services while giving away the software for free. Would this not be the same as ford giving away cars and trucks, and than selling warranties, parts, and services?? See it seems crazy when applied to cars and trucks yet tons of developers argue with me that 100's of hours of work should be given away just for the heck of it to help open source. This just seems crazy to me or maybe i'm not getting it. For example Tivo HME sdk is really cool and let's say i wrote an app that uses it and it is really popular, now i just invested countless hours but because the sdk is on sourceforge and anything i write using it has to be open source, i can't sell the product. Maybe it's just me but woudn't that kill inovation. Oh wait i forgot mortgages car payments, bills those are just getting in the way of working all day for free just to better the society of open source. I don't know like i said maybe i'm just missing something here.
BTW what you said about cars is pretty much what many fleet companies do. And they make a killing. Toyota also offers it on their Prius models here in South Africa. For awhile it was the only option. Of course being physical things and not cheapily-copyable like software you never owned the thing. regards, Paul Watson South Africa Colib and WebTwoZero. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Keep this up and I'll think you have fifty accounts registered on CP dedicated to giving yourself 5 votes ;) regards, Paul Watson South Africa Colib and WebTwoZero. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Just wondering about something that really bothers me with open source. Ok i've heard how you write open source software and than sell services while giving away the software for free. Would this not be the same as ford giving away cars and trucks, and than selling warranties, parts, and services?? See it seems crazy when applied to cars and trucks yet tons of developers argue with me that 100's of hours of work should be given away just for the heck of it to help open source. This just seems crazy to me or maybe i'm not getting it. For example Tivo HME sdk is really cool and let's say i wrote an app that uses it and it is really popular, now i just invested countless hours but because the sdk is on sourceforge and anything i write using it has to be open source, i can't sell the product. Maybe it's just me but woudn't that kill inovation. Oh wait i forgot mortgages car payments, bills those are just getting in the way of working all day for free just to better the society of open source. I don't know like i said maybe i'm just missing something here.
Some people just like to give things away. Some people love to code and share. If it isn't your bag, then fair enough. I put my own code out there because I like to share ideas and concepts. I write the code because it is fun and share it because it is a shame for it to just gather dust on my hard-disk as I moved onto something new. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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:seriously impressed:
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
its not like u can copy and email a car, duh.... :doh: xacc-ide 0.0.15 now with C#, MSIL, C, XML, ASP.NET, Nemerle, MyXaml and HLSL coloring - Screenshots
That would be pretty neat though. :) -- Keep talking! You're the fool, I'm the preacher.
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Awww.. come on Lauren. I love the way you leave pretty colored threads behind.. :-D -- Keep talking! You're the fool, I'm the preacher.
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That would be pretty neat though. :) -- Keep talking! You're the fool, I'm the preacher.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: That would be pretty neat though. Would be neat if cars were free too :p xacc-ide 0.0.15 now with C#, MSIL, C, XML, ASP.NET, Nemerle, MyXaml and HLSL coloring - Screenshots
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The main thing i'm getting at is how can people write software for free as a living. Maybe as a hobby but that would be an expensive one for sure in terms of hours. Applications here on cp are geared towards helping developers which is fine and great. I suspect however that applications requiring hundreds of man hours would not just be given away here for free maybe i am wrong but if that's the case how do those same people pay the bills. I can't imagine people program all night long to give stuff away and then go do another non-programming job to pay bills. Perhaps i am living in a bizzaro world where one tries to get paid for his/her profession. I'm not however trying to trash people who leave source code and articles on cp to help others. But one cannot survive on giving away work all the time
nlecren wrote: The main thing i'm getting at is how can people write software for free as a living. Maybe as a hobby but that would be an expensive one for sure in terms of hours. Think of it less as free and more as intra-office or intra-corporation software. I explained my case. I write, under contract, for the government, so all my code belongs to them. It is "free" per se, but my hours are reimbursed as long as I write software for them or their customers and the software is wanted. When my software stops being wanted, I start looking for other work. :) I don't own anything, though recent changes in laws do now allow for the company who employs me to copyright, patent and/or sell the software, after government approval and forms signed in triplicate, etc., to any other non-government corporation. The concept of the software being owned by a larger entity and shared automatically has been around for a very long time, it simply was "inside" a company or under government contract. Although new for the "public" it is not really a new concept. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Just wondering about something that really bothers me with open source. Ok i've heard how you write open source software and than sell services while giving away the software for free. Would this not be the same as ford giving away cars and trucks, and than selling warranties, parts, and services?? See it seems crazy when applied to cars and trucks yet tons of developers argue with me that 100's of hours of work should be given away just for the heck of it to help open source. This just seems crazy to me or maybe i'm not getting it. For example Tivo HME sdk is really cool and let's say i wrote an app that uses it and it is really popular, now i just invested countless hours but because the sdk is on sourceforge and anything i write using it has to be open source, i can't sell the product. Maybe it's just me but woudn't that kill inovation. Oh wait i forgot mortgages car payments, bills those are just getting in the way of working all day for free just to better the society of open source. I don't know like i said maybe i'm just missing something here.
Apparently, open source does not necessarily imply open mind... I've worked primarily for companies developing commercial software and can definitely see what you are getting at. GPL licensing is practically useless for incorporation into traditional commercial applications as it requires the source for your company's app to be distributed as well. I once needed to find a C++ wrapper for a complex Win32 API that I wasn't familiar with. The first one I found had GPL headers. I emailed the author of the library and he said just "remove the headers and do what you like with the code". Yeah right. The guy likely just copied the headers from somewhere without knowing what its purpose was. I quickly moved on to another article at CodeProject instead and used it to understand the API better and write my own wrapper. No more licensing bs. If you're going to hand out free software, you should let people use it how they like (I mean use, not republish, plagiarize, resell as code library, etc). Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand, the default licensing of article code on this site is not as onerous as GPL. If it were, I doubt this site would be as popular as it is.
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Just wondering about something that really bothers me with open source. Ok i've heard how you write open source software and than sell services while giving away the software for free. Would this not be the same as ford giving away cars and trucks, and than selling warranties, parts, and services?? See it seems crazy when applied to cars and trucks yet tons of developers argue with me that 100's of hours of work should be given away just for the heck of it to help open source. This just seems crazy to me or maybe i'm not getting it. For example Tivo HME sdk is really cool and let's say i wrote an app that uses it and it is really popular, now i just invested countless hours but because the sdk is on sourceforge and anything i write using it has to be open source, i can't sell the product. Maybe it's just me but woudn't that kill inovation. Oh wait i forgot mortgages car payments, bills those are just getting in the way of working all day for free just to better the society of open source. I don't know like i said maybe i'm just missing something here.
Play smart, play safe and stay with BSD or public domain software. License is open and you can do whatever you like! As for making money, I wonder how many people are making any money writing software for mass distribution... While there may be some, I would imagine a large number of developers make their living from employee/contract positions for corporations and other businesses. Rocky <>< My Blog[^]