Religion A Vs Religion B
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Christian Graus wrote:
I plainly don't believe Mohammed was from God,
He is absolutely.
Christian Graus wrote:
I believe that Jesus warned against Mohammeds teachings.
He said that Mohammed will come, And they have to follow him.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus didn't seek to attack people,
Neither do Mohammed.
Christian Graus wrote:
He was quick to attack false ideas,
Also Mohammed did, but let me ask you something, if everyone here is saying that Jesus is right, and Mohammed is wrong, so... , How many FALSE thing the Chrisitians are doing now, comparing to how much the Muslims do ?
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
LongHC wrote:
He is absolutely.
Well, as I said at the start, you're wrong, but I respect your right to be wrong.
LongHC wrote:
He said that Mohammed will come, And they have to follow him.
Where ? Seriously, I'm interested. Are you sure this isn't just something that you've been told, because I am certain there is no place in the Bible that could remotely be viewed to say this.
LongHC wrote:
Neither do Mohammed.
Or Buddha, or my neighbour. That doesn't prove someone is from God. My point was just that as a Christian, I should follow Jesus' example.
LongHC wrote:
if everyone here is saying that Jesus is right, and Mohammed is wrong
I think I'm the first person so far to actually say that categorically.
LongHC wrote:
How many FALSE thing the Chrisitians are doing now,
A lot, no argument from me.
LongHC wrote:
comparing to how much the Muslims do ?
I'd say they run neck and neck, although, I'm not sure how many people nowadays are killing in the name of Jesus ( although I don't dispute this has happened in the past ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Rob Graham wrote:
No matter how merciful the particular God is adverised to be, he has no mercy for those raised in a different belief, even if they were in all other respects model human beings. I find that so preposterous and fundamentally unfair, that I conclude all religions are wrong.
Well, you're free to decide that. However, I think you've got the cart before the horse. Being 'raised in a religion' is irrelevant. People who go to church because their parents did, and don't think about it for themselves, are probably not headed anywhere great either. The point of Christianity to me is that God made us, and made us able to choose for ourselves to live forever. If you don't choose to live, is it God's fault that you die ? No.
Rob Graham wrote:
flawed to the point of damnation
No, that's not what I believe. I believe that by definition of following someone other than Jesus, a person can't possibly have accepted His offer of life. Because they don't choose to live, they will die. That they are not flawed as people is the point I wanted to make ( although I knew that point would be quickly lost )
Rob Graham wrote:
what leads to justifying any outrage in the name of one's religion, and is the cause of much of mankind's hatred of fellow men.
It's more true that leaders who want to start war use religion often to give the common man a reason to die needlessly, and to kill people who are no different to them. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
People who go to church because their parents did,
I certainly did not mean "raised in another faith' in that simplistic a fashion. What of those never exposed to Christianity (there are many...)? Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives? How is such a god merciful, or just or even just fair? Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
and where will all christians go?in Casino?
I've just been to Vegas, and it looked pretty much like hell to me. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
I've just been to Vegas, and it looked pretty much like hell to me.
get used to of it dude,you have to lead a long life in environment like that MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
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And there lies the problem. Its all open to interpretation. Some people interpret it as a justification for violence and hatred.
That's certainly true, no argument from me. It can plainly be misinterpreted. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
People who go to church because their parents did,
I certainly did not mean "raised in another faith' in that simplistic a fashion. What of those never exposed to Christianity (there are many...)? Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives? How is such a god merciful, or just or even just fair? Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Rob Graham wrote:
Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives?
No, the Bible actually says that such people will in fact be judged according to the sort of life they lead, not knowing about the Gospel. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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ALLAH is always here, It is a thing that can't be denied, So for who do Christians pray then ?
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
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LongHC wrote:
He is absolutely.
Well, as I said at the start, you're wrong, but I respect your right to be wrong.
LongHC wrote:
He said that Mohammed will come, And they have to follow him.
Where ? Seriously, I'm interested. Are you sure this isn't just something that you've been told, because I am certain there is no place in the Bible that could remotely be viewed to say this.
LongHC wrote:
Neither do Mohammed.
Or Buddha, or my neighbour. That doesn't prove someone is from God. My point was just that as a Christian, I should follow Jesus' example.
LongHC wrote:
if everyone here is saying that Jesus is right, and Mohammed is wrong
I think I'm the first person so far to actually say that categorically.
LongHC wrote:
How many FALSE thing the Chrisitians are doing now,
A lot, no argument from me.
LongHC wrote:
comparing to how much the Muslims do ?
I'd say they run neck and neck, although, I'm not sure how many people nowadays are killing in the name of Jesus ( although I don't dispute this has happened in the past ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, as I said at the start, you're wrong, but I respect your right to be wrong.
Everyone believes in his faith.
Christian Graus wrote:
Where ? Seriously, I'm interested. Are you sure this isn't just something that you've been told, because I am certain there is no place in the Bible that could remotely be viewed to say this.
And, are you sure that the Bible havn't changed ?, So, why does the Christian spokemen knows that the Islam is true.
Christian Graus wrote:
I should follow Jesus' example.
That is fully right.
Christian Graus wrote:
A lot, no argument from me
Then I think offending the other religions is not good, and that is only what I saw in this forum.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'd say they run neck and neck, although, I'm not sure how many people nowadays are killing in the name of Jesus ( although I don't dispute this has happened in the past ).
Then I could have started a thread using any article form any news website and say that Chiristianity is Peacful, and show up the article that shows some Christians killing some Muslims. Would that be so bad ? :)
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
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Rob Graham wrote:
Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives?
No, the Bible actually says that such people will in fact be judged according to the sort of life they lead, not knowing about the Gospel. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
IMO A truly fair and just god would judge all people on the same basis: how they led their lives, regardless of the form their worship (or even absence thereof) took. And if all of us judged others exclusively on that basis, the world would be a better place than it is. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, as I said at the start, you're wrong, but I respect your right to be wrong.
Everyone believes in his faith.
Christian Graus wrote:
Where ? Seriously, I'm interested. Are you sure this isn't just something that you've been told, because I am certain there is no place in the Bible that could remotely be viewed to say this.
And, are you sure that the Bible havn't changed ?, So, why does the Christian spokemen knows that the Islam is true.
Christian Graus wrote:
I should follow Jesus' example.
That is fully right.
Christian Graus wrote:
A lot, no argument from me
Then I think offending the other religions is not good, and that is only what I saw in this forum.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'd say they run neck and neck, although, I'm not sure how many people nowadays are killing in the name of Jesus ( although I don't dispute this has happened in the past ).
Then I could have started a thread using any article form any news website and say that Chiristianity is Peacful, and show up the article that shows some Christians killing some Muslims. Would that be so bad ? :)
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
LongHC wrote:
Everyone believes in his faith.
By definition :-)
LongHC wrote:
And, are you sure that the Bible havn't changed ?,
Of course. The Bible is the most copied book of all time, there's a ton of manuscript evidence for it not having been altered.
LongHC wrote:
So, why does the Christian spokemen knows that the Islam is true.
Do you mean 'is not true' ? It's not true, because it cannot be, without Jesus being a liar. Believing in Jesus, by definition, makes every other religion false. That's the only point I was trying to make.
LongHC wrote:
Then I think offending the other religions is not good, and that is only what I saw in this forum.
It depends. I can't believe what I do without being willing to offend if need be, I can't avoid the fact that in my book, Islam is dead wrong. But, offending for the sake of it, being rude and seeking to offend for it's own sake, or for the sake of self righteousness, is obviously not right.
LongHC wrote:
Then I could have started a thread using any article form any news website and say that Chiristianity is Peacful, and show up the article that shows some Christians killing some Muslims. Would that be so bad ?
OK, I see your point now ( I've barely followed the threads below ). Yes, I agree you'd have as much right to do this as others have to find a link about Muslims killing Christians, and from that making a comment about Islam not being peaceful. In this day and age, I'd have to suggest that you'd have to work harder to find evidence of such behaviour from those claiming to follow Christ than Mohammed, but I'd agree that in both cases it's wrong to imply that all followers of a particular figure are the same as the few that behave violently. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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IMO A truly fair and just god would judge all people on the same basis: how they led their lives, regardless of the form their worship (or even absence thereof) took. And if all of us judged others exclusively on that basis, the world would be a better place than it is. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Rob Graham wrote:
And if all of us judged others exclusively on that basis, the world would be a better place than it is.
Well, I guess not believing in God puts you in a good position to decide what you'd do if you were God. However, it's equally true that if all the people who claim to be Christians lived accordingly, the world would be a better place. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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That's certainly true, no argument from me. It can plainly be misinterpreted. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Josh Gray wrote:
that statements like this are useless.
And what is the usefull, offending the religions ?:^)
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
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I believe there is only one correct interpretation. That goes without saying. If there's a God, then He has an opinion, and His intention was to make that clear. I'd not be so arrogant as to say that I've got everything right, I learn all the time. But broadly, yes, I believe that there's one correct interpretation of the Bible, because I believe God also has an opinion, that cancels out any other, and I believe that I've done all I can to know what that interpretation is, and to live by it. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
It's wrong to blame all Muslims for terrorism
You are right. See this : Previous Post[^].
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
But pointing out the wrongs of others in no way pardons Muslims for their wrongdoing, and serves to convince no one that Islam is not a violent faith. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Rob Graham wrote:
And if all of us judged others exclusively on that basis, the world would be a better place than it is.
Well, I guess not believing in God puts you in a good position to decide what you'd do if you were God. However, it's equally true that if all the people who claim to be Christians lived accordingly, the world would be a better place. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I guess not believing in God
Never said I didn't. Don't presume. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I guess not believing in God
Never said I didn't. Don't presume. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Sorry, my head is spinning here, I thought I was replying to someone who HAD said that :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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LongHC wrote:
Everyone believes in his faith.
By definition :-)
LongHC wrote:
And, are you sure that the Bible havn't changed ?,
Of course. The Bible is the most copied book of all time, there's a ton of manuscript evidence for it not having been altered.
LongHC wrote:
So, why does the Christian spokemen knows that the Islam is true.
Do you mean 'is not true' ? It's not true, because it cannot be, without Jesus being a liar. Believing in Jesus, by definition, makes every other religion false. That's the only point I was trying to make.
LongHC wrote:
Then I think offending the other religions is not good, and that is only what I saw in this forum.
It depends. I can't believe what I do without being willing to offend if need be, I can't avoid the fact that in my book, Islam is dead wrong. But, offending for the sake of it, being rude and seeking to offend for it's own sake, or for the sake of self righteousness, is obviously not right.
LongHC wrote:
Then I could have started a thread using any article form any news website and say that Chiristianity is Peacful, and show up the article that shows some Christians killing some Muslims. Would that be so bad ?
OK, I see your point now ( I've barely followed the threads below ). Yes, I agree you'd have as much right to do this as others have to find a link about Muslims killing Christians, and from that making a comment about Islam not being peaceful. In this day and age, I'd have to suggest that you'd have to work harder to find evidence of such behaviour from those claiming to follow Christ than Mohammed, but I'd agree that in both cases it's wrong to imply that all followers of a particular figure are the same as the few that behave violently. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you mean 'is not true' ? It's not true, because it cannot be,
You think this, but you must know that I have faith in Christianity, but I follow Islam and Mohammed, and at last the GOD is the one who will give everyone what he did :-O.
Christian Graus wrote:
Believing in Jesus, by definition, makes every other religion false. That's the only point I was trying to make.
Do you see what I mean, beleiving in Jesus makes you deny Islam, and believing in Islam makes me believe also in Jesus and Christianity, so why did the Bible denied the Islam, while the Islam ordeder us to believe in all Prophets ( Including Jesus ) ?, That is the point we have to discuss.
Christian Graus wrote:
But, offending for the sake of it, being rude and seeking to offend for it's own sake, or for the sake of self righteousness, is obviously not right.
And that is what I was talking about, let everyone lives with his religion and faith, and let GOD give us what we've done :).
Christian Graus wrote:
but I'd agree that in both cases it's wrong to imply that all followers of a particular figure are the same as the few that behave violently.
I want to know one thing, IF I created a play that offends and says rude and non-faithful words about your religion, and I said F*** Jesus, Wouldn't you be so angry, that you will march to place of that play and just say I refuse ? You know ?, I live in Egypt, in the place that all this happened in, That was really bad, They were offending the Islam so bad, besides we've never offended any religion in past, even the Jews.
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
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I believe there is only one correct interpretation. That goes without saying. If there's a God, then He has an opinion, and His intention was to make that clear. I'd not be so arrogant as to say that I've got everything right, I learn all the time. But broadly, yes, I believe that there's one correct interpretation of the Bible, because I believe God also has an opinion, that cancels out any other, and I believe that I've done all I can to know what that interpretation is, and to live by it. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Then why is it so ambiguious? Well my original post said that arguing religion A vs religion B is pointless. Similarly arguing religion A vs no religion is pointless as your arguments are based on faith. We could go on for hours but at the end of the day "Each to there own".
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Sorry, my head is spinning here, I thought I was replying to someone who HAD said that :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
:rose: As it happens, I do believe in the teachings of Jesus, I just happen to think he is more merciful and less exclusive than you do. Heaven has room for muslims, jews, hindus, bhuddists and many other good people, even atheists (perhaps to their diasppointment). Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke