Religion A Vs Religion B
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Christian Graus wrote:
I've just been to Vegas, and it looked pretty much like hell to me.
get used to of it dude,you have to lead a long life in environment like that MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
What a stupid conversation. If you really think he is going to hell why are you happy about it? "You're going to hell" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are" "No you are"
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Rob Graham wrote:
No matter how merciful the particular God is adverised to be, he has no mercy for those raised in a different belief, even if they were in all other respects model human beings. I find that so preposterous and fundamentally unfair, that I conclude all religions are wrong.
Well, you're free to decide that. However, I think you've got the cart before the horse. Being 'raised in a religion' is irrelevant. People who go to church because their parents did, and don't think about it for themselves, are probably not headed anywhere great either. The point of Christianity to me is that God made us, and made us able to choose for ourselves to live forever. If you don't choose to live, is it God's fault that you die ? No.
Rob Graham wrote:
flawed to the point of damnation
No, that's not what I believe. I believe that by definition of following someone other than Jesus, a person can't possibly have accepted His offer of life. Because they don't choose to live, they will die. That they are not flawed as people is the point I wanted to make ( although I knew that point would be quickly lost )
Rob Graham wrote:
what leads to justifying any outrage in the name of one's religion, and is the cause of much of mankind's hatred of fellow men.
It's more true that leaders who want to start war use religion often to give the common man a reason to die needlessly, and to kill people who are no different to them. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
What about people who lived in the jungle all their lives? Are these people destined for hell because they've never heard about Jesus? Do you belive in life on other planets? Do you believe they are going to hell? If you assume that Jesus came to them in another form, then why couldn't he have come to us as Mohammed or anyone else here on Earth for that matter? Any way you look at it, there are over 5 billion people going to hell for not following any other religion. That's assuming that the 1.2 Billion Christians are all going to heaven. However, as you correctly pointed out, not every person in any religion follows their religion to the tee. Therefore, a lot less people are going to heaven, if any. Personally, I'm looking forward to oblivion. I can't imagine living eternally as either a finite-thinking-living-being or as an infinite-knowledge-supreme-being, which would be an insult to God. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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Rob Graham wrote:
Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives?
No, the Bible actually says that such people will in fact be judged according to the sort of life they lead, not knowing about the Gospel. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Doesn't that contradict the fact where you said Muslims cannot go to heaven? What about all non-Christians who live honorable lives? Anyone who gets judged by the life they lead means that they CAN follow any religion they want, as long as it is a noble path. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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Rob Graham wrote:
Islam is not a violent faith.
It's not.
Rob Graham wrote:
pointing out the wrongs of others
I am not pointing to the wrongs of others, I am just saying what I believe in, and you must know that it all started yesterday from the previous post, and this violence as you wrote wasn't like that, the police in Egypt (as might you don't know) can't let any one reach the curch. And at last I will reply what I wrote in another post, They were just objecting to the play that was offendong our religion.
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
You sir, are morally bankrupt. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
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This thread started me thinking... ..what a waste of time. "My old book of fairytales is better than your old book of fairytales". "People who dont beleive that my old book of fairytales is the only right one are bad people". etc etc. Given that religion is based on Faith, a non-rational concept, how can you expect to have a rational discussion? Some peoples 'true colours' have really come out.
Having read most of this thread, I'm convinced that The Great Quantum Mechanic is going to get severely pissed about having way too many of His electrons severely inconvenienced blasting this drivel around the internet that He's going to invoke the exclusion principle on all the religious zealots. :laugh:;P At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe. -- modified at 21:56 Monday 24th October, 2005
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What about people who lived in the jungle all their lives? Are these people destined for hell because they've never heard about Jesus? Do you belive in life on other planets? Do you believe they are going to hell? If you assume that Jesus came to them in another form, then why couldn't he have come to us as Mohammed or anyone else here on Earth for that matter? Any way you look at it, there are over 5 billion people going to hell for not following any other religion. That's assuming that the 1.2 Billion Christians are all going to heaven. However, as you correctly pointed out, not every person in any religion follows their religion to the tee. Therefore, a lot less people are going to heaven, if any. Personally, I'm looking forward to oblivion. I can't imagine living eternally as either a finite-thinking-living-being or as an infinite-knowledge-supreme-being, which would be an insult to God. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What about people who lived in the jungle all their lives? Are these people destined for hell because they've never heard about Jesus?
As I said, the Bible says such people are judged on their works.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Do you belive in life on other planets?
No.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Do you believe they are going to hell?
If there is life on other planets, I'm sure He's taken care of them.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If you assume that Jesus came to them in another form, then why couldn't he have come to us as Mohammed or anyone else here on Earth for that matter?
Because He'd already come, and because when Jesus came, He did the will of the Father. Mohammed, plainly did not.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Therefore, a lot less people are going to heaven, if any.
The Bible says it's a narrow road, and there are few who find it. So, I guess you're right. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What about people who lived in the jungle all their lives? Are these people destined for hell because they've never heard about Jesus?
As I said, the Bible says such people are judged on their works.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Do you belive in life on other planets?
No.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Do you believe they are going to hell?
If there is life on other planets, I'm sure He's taken care of them.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If you assume that Jesus came to them in another form, then why couldn't he have come to us as Mohammed or anyone else here on Earth for that matter?
Because He'd already come, and because when Jesus came, He did the will of the Father. Mohammed, plainly did not.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Therefore, a lot less people are going to heaven, if any.
The Bible says it's a narrow road, and there are few who find it. So, I guess you're right. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Rob Graham wrote:
Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives?
No, the Bible actually says that such people will in fact be judged according to the sort of life they lead, not knowing about the Gospel. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
the Bible actually says that such people will in fact be judged according to the sort of life they lead, not knowing about the Gospel.
I guess that with modern global travel and communication no one has much of an excuse nowadays but if your assertion is true then the early Christian missionaries were really just condemning thousands of otherwise perfectly happy and reasonable people to go hell in denial rather than to go to heaven in ignorance. Steve T
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Gosh, how many times have I said this ? Any person who has not been in a position to hear about Jesus is judged on works alone. It says so in Revelation. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
the Bible actually says that such people will in fact be judged according to the sort of life they lead, not knowing about the Gospel.
I guess that with modern global travel and communication no one has much of an excuse nowadays but if your assertion is true then the early Christian missionaries were really just condemning thousands of otherwise perfectly happy and reasonable people to go hell in denial rather than to go to heaven in ignorance. Steve T
FlyingTinman wrote:
just condemning thousands of otherwise perfectly happy and reasonable people
Perhaps, but life with Jesus is better than life without, which was their message. It's far easier to make the grade as a Christian than not. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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FlyingTinman wrote:
just condemning thousands of otherwise perfectly happy and reasonable people
Perhaps, but life with Jesus is better than life without, which was their message. It's far easier to make the grade as a Christian than not. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christianity is just one model for leading a "good" life. By no means the best. Steve T
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Christianity is just one model for leading a "good" life. By no means the best. Steve T
FlyingTinman wrote:
Christianity is just one model for leading a "good" life.
I agree. Plenty of non-Christians are 'good people'.
FlyingTinman wrote:
By no means the best.
I disagree totally, obviously. What gives Christianity the edge IMO is the power of God to transform people, something no other approach offers. Of course, that doesn't mean that Christians are better than other people, just that the ones who are serious about it don't have to work as hard at it :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Gosh, how many times have I said this ? Any person who has not been in a position to hear about Jesus is judged on works alone. It says so in Revelation. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Gosh, how many times have I said this ? Any person who has not been in a position to hear about Jesus is judged on works alone. It says so in Revelation.
Then how does this go with your earlier statement? "As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell."
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FlyingTinman wrote:
just condemning thousands of otherwise perfectly happy and reasonable people
Perhaps, but life with Jesus is better than life without, which was their message. It's far easier to make the grade as a Christian than not. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
It's far easier to make the grade as a Christian than not.
From my experience Christianity make people "bad" people "good" with about the same success rate as dieting makes fat people thin, except there's no forgiveness available for that extra slice of pizza. Steve T
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Christian Graus wrote:
Gosh, how many times have I said this ? Any person who has not been in a position to hear about Jesus is judged on works alone. It says so in Revelation.
Then how does this go with your earlier statement? "As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell."
Tim Craig wrote:
Then how does this go with your earlier statement? "As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell."
Because you can't be a Muslim without having access to the Bible, surely ? Given that Muslims (falsely) believe that Mohammed followed on from Jesus ? If someone, somewhere has a Quran and no access to the Bible, the Internet, or any contact with Christians, so that they somehow call themselves a Muslim without ever knowing about Jesus, then they will be judged by their works. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
It's far easier to make the grade as a Christian than not.
From my experience Christianity make people "bad" people "good" with about the same success rate as dieting makes fat people thin, except there's no forgiveness available for that extra slice of pizza. Steve T
I have no argument. Most people who claim to be Christians, apply the name to themselves because they heard it growing up. My experience of people who follow Jesus is the exact opposite though. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Tim Craig wrote:
Then how does this go with your earlier statement? "As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell."
Because you can't be a Muslim without having access to the Bible, surely ? Given that Muslims (falsely) believe that Mohammed followed on from Jesus ? If someone, somewhere has a Quran and no access to the Bible, the Internet, or any contact with Christians, so that they somehow call themselves a Muslim without ever knowing about Jesus, then they will be judged by their works. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
That's a bit unfair, isn't it? If a person is a devout Muslim or other, and he has read about Christ, but hasn't accepted Christ as his savior (since that's not his religion), then he has to go to hell because he had heard about him? Since when was heresay a legal reason? There are many different aspects of Christianity. Since those conflict with each other, who's to say which one he heard and whether it truly is the right one. Are deaf people free from such rules since reading about something is not as powerful as being spoken to? Maybe the impact of the Bible is not as strong as being read the Bible by a priest? Thus deaf Muslims are excused from going to hell just on the basis of "hearing" about Christ. Besides, the concept of eternaly damnation for someone who has heard about Christ, not accepted him as his savior, but still led a good and noble life, is a bit of a stretch. It's like torturing someone for all eternity just for not listening to you. God gave us free will. We existed before and after religion as beings of intelligence to grow out of our infancy. If God wanted obedience and only that, he could have made us simpler like animals. That's the only thing that differentiates human beings from any other creature. Religion is not counted since not all humans believe in religion and most don't believe in the same one. It is my belief that religion is a phase, just like anything else. For a thousand years, people believed in Egyptian, Roman, Greek, and Norse gods, but that too faded away. Everything passes sooner or later. I would imagine war to be the motivating factor to all this since people are too busy worrying about survival than actual eternal damnation at that point. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math