A message to Disbeliver Anonymous freak
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Even I, a total nonbeliever, can read between the lines on this one.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better
Our way is always better so feel free to argue all you want.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
save with such of them as do wrong
They don't believe what we do so they're a priori wrong.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
our Allah and your Allah is One
Our god is your god and we'll tell you how to worship him. At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.
Tim Craig wrote:
Even I, a total nonbeliever, can read between the lines on this one.
Huh? I thought the english wording was fairly staright forward and didn't need reading between the lines.
Tim Craig wrote:
Our way is always better so feel free to argue all you want.
Um I thought the English was clear here. Maybe the command to Moses will bring the meaning closer.
020.043 "Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds; 020.044 "But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."Quran Translation Intro Discover -
Tim Craig wrote:
Even I, a total nonbeliever, can read between the lines on this one.
Huh? I thought the english wording was fairly staright forward and didn't need reading between the lines.
Tim Craig wrote:
Our way is always better so feel free to argue all you want.
Um I thought the English was clear here. Maybe the command to Moses will bring the meaning closer.
020.043 "Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds; 020.044 "But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."Quran Translation Intro DiscoverA.A. wrote:
Huh? I thought the english wording was fairly staright forward and didn't need reading between the lines.
Reading between the lines is what makes religions work. An example of the old saying, "If you can't dazzle them with intellect, baffle them with bull shit."
A.A. wrote:
"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh
I don't know any pharoahs. Weren't they one of the gangs in "American Graffiti"? :cool:
A.A. wrote:
"But speak to him mildly;
And I'll carry a big stick... :| At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.
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Wont you answer my question?
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
go and die as Anonymous,
Do you want this person to die?
No, he won't. He stopped replying to me also, I guess because he couldn't answer my questions. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
yes this fairy tell stroy was qouted from bible verse
You believe that the thoughts in your head matter for something if you don't act on them ?
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
i have been dealing with you for two days
You've been ignoring my questions for two days, yes.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
what i found that you are from one of those who even reject bible`s wording frequently
No, just your twisted intepretations. I note you've not once tried to address where I've shown from the Bible why your views on the verses you quote are wrong.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
if you are just being ignorant than nothing is left to discuss
I don't think asking you honest questions, which you choose to ignore, is 'ignorant'.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
why dont you believe your own biblic verse
I repeat - not accepting your bizarre interpetations is not the same as not believing the Bible. I've quoted a number of things and asked if you believe them, why won't you answer me ? I think you've made it clear that it's you who rejects the Bible.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
Boy,quit the habbit of qouting out of context things.
I'm sorry, this is the pot calling the kettle black. I said at hte start that I respect your right to be totally wrong. But, if you don't want to discuss why you're wrong with me, then just stop, instead of claiming you've proven anything, when you have not. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
I don't want to vote anonymously, but I think you've said what I want to say already in your past statements. I'm behind you on this one, CG. (Actually I was a bit surprised to read your statements because I didn't imagine you're so passionate about Christianity) Ed
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I don't want to vote anonymously, but I think you've said what I want to say already in your past statements. I'm behind you on this one, CG. (Actually I was a bit surprised to read your statements because I didn't imagine you're so passionate about Christianity) Ed
Edbert P. wrote:
(Actually I was a bit surprised to read your statements because I didn't imagine you're so passionate about Christianity)
I guess it's just another part of my life, that I'm happy to flow into this one, but that I wouldn't force into a site like CP, which is plainly not about such things. I certainly find myself discussing Christianity in the soapbox fairly regularly though. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
yes this fairy tell stroy was qouted from bible verse
You believe that the thoughts in your head matter for something if you don't act on them ?
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
i have been dealing with you for two days
You've been ignoring my questions for two days, yes.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
what i found that you are from one of those who even reject bible`s wording frequently
No, just your twisted intepretations. I note you've not once tried to address where I've shown from the Bible why your views on the verses you quote are wrong.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
if you are just being ignorant than nothing is left to discuss
I don't think asking you honest questions, which you choose to ignore, is 'ignorant'.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
why dont you believe your own biblic verse
I repeat - not accepting your bizarre interpetations is not the same as not believing the Bible. I've quoted a number of things and asked if you believe them, why won't you answer me ? I think you've made it clear that it's you who rejects the Bible.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
Boy,quit the habbit of qouting out of context things.
I'm sorry, this is the pot calling the kettle black. I said at hte start that I respect your right to be totally wrong. But, if you don't want to discuss why you're wrong with me, then just stop, instead of claiming you've proven anything, when you have not. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
I repeat - not accepting your bizarre interpetations is not the same as not believing the Bible. I've quoted a number of things and asked if you believe them, why won't you answer me ? I think you've made it clear that it's you who rejects the Bible.
its not matter of interpetation,i asked you about the verses in bible,i asked your answer,many times you rejected the verses by saying its wrong,you were saying wrong to biblic verses,what i have felt that you dont have enough knowledge about bible,if you are Christian by name,it doesn`t mean you automatically got into the christianity in a true manner..sometimes you got so confused that you were rejecting your own statment in a single post for instance,in one of reply in which i qouted verse of a bible you simply replied Jesus was plainly a prophet, and: which is against Christianity concept of diety that is Trinity in which Essa(AS) which is called Jesus,ranks second in trinity(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) he`s prolly the first chiristian who calimed that Jesus was the prophet.I have met christians in real life ,i have talked and discussed on internet,i found noone who said that jesus was a prophet..infact i am happy to know that chrisitan graus beliving in reality that Jesus was nothing but an ordinary man like us and messenger of God,regardless of truth. anyway,the whole point is not hes wrong or I am right..he just got confused in his own statments,everytime his statments rejected his old statments,like when i qouted him the following verse in a mail i sent him John 12:14: "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon, as it is written." he called this verse wrong and said Jesus never came on ass..how could i talk with this guy who`s not serious about his own religion,and just reply with lack of responsibility.i ve debat with many christians and jews and sometimes i found them very sensible towards listening me.. Christians Gaurus,my friend,take my advice,better study bible throughly then come for dicussion with others,you are even dangerous for fellow chiristians. MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
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Wont you answer my question?
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
go and die as Anonymous,
Do you want this person to die?
everyone has to die,including you and me..regardless of my will.. if i say or wish he die today,he won`t die,as i am not his creator and destructor,if i wish and pray for his long live,yet i am helpless as i am not hsi creator and destructor.. i hope he would find some day who`s his creator.. MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
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everyone has to die,including you and me..regardless of my will.. if i say or wish he die today,he won`t die,as i am not his creator and destructor,if i wish and pray for his long live,yet i am helpless as i am not hsi creator and destructor.. i hope he would find some day who`s his creator.. MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
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No, he won't. He stopped replying to me also, I guess because he couldn't answer my questions. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
No, he won't. He stopped replying to me also, I guess because he couldn't answer my questions.
you dont know yourself what you want to ask about :> MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
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Christian Graus wrote:
I repeat - not accepting your bizarre interpetations is not the same as not believing the Bible. I've quoted a number of things and asked if you believe them, why won't you answer me ? I think you've made it clear that it's you who rejects the Bible.
its not matter of interpetation,i asked you about the verses in bible,i asked your answer,many times you rejected the verses by saying its wrong,you were saying wrong to biblic verses,what i have felt that you dont have enough knowledge about bible,if you are Christian by name,it doesn`t mean you automatically got into the christianity in a true manner..sometimes you got so confused that you were rejecting your own statment in a single post for instance,in one of reply in which i qouted verse of a bible you simply replied Jesus was plainly a prophet, and: which is against Christianity concept of diety that is Trinity in which Essa(AS) which is called Jesus,ranks second in trinity(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) he`s prolly the first chiristian who calimed that Jesus was the prophet.I have met christians in real life ,i have talked and discussed on internet,i found noone who said that jesus was a prophet..infact i am happy to know that chrisitan graus beliving in reality that Jesus was nothing but an ordinary man like us and messenger of God,regardless of truth. anyway,the whole point is not hes wrong or I am right..he just got confused in his own statments,everytime his statments rejected his old statments,like when i qouted him the following verse in a mail i sent him John 12:14: "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon, as it is written." he called this verse wrong and said Jesus never came on ass..how could i talk with this guy who`s not serious about his own religion,and just reply with lack of responsibility.i ve debat with many christians and jews and sometimes i found them very sensible towards listening me.. Christians Gaurus,my friend,take my advice,better study bible throughly then come for dicussion with others,you are even dangerous for fellow chiristians. MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
its not matter of interpetation,i asked you about the verses in bible
Sure - you asked for my interpretation, after offering yours.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
many times you rejected the verses by saying its wrong
You continue to be deliberatly obtuse, almost as if you don't realise that I've asked you a lot of questions, which you refuse to even acknowledge, let alone answer.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
what i have felt that you dont have enough knowledge about bible
You can feel whatever makes you feel better. I know enough to ask questions from the Bible you can't answer, and either way, I don't stand before you, so your opinion doesn't matter to me.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
you simply replied Jesus was plainly a prophet, and: which is against Christianity concept of diety that is Trinity
You've suggested that this is the case ( because how can one be a prophet when one speaks of oneself ). Your argument is like everything else you say, nothing to do with God, or faith, a lot to do with word games, and semantics. Jesus was a prophet because He foretold the future. Every true prophet tells the future because they have communication with God. Your concept of the Trinity ( an idea I have not pursued at all ) has no bearing on me, or Jesus.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
he`s prolly the first chiristian who calimed that Jesus was the prophet
What's with 'the prophet' ? He was THE saviour. He was A prophet.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
i found noone who said that jesus was a prophet..
Really ? I guess they defined prophet differently to me. I say it's someone who delivers a message from God, under His inspiration.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
infact i am happy to know that chrisitan graus beliving in reality that Jesus was nothing but an ordinary man like us
Yep - you can't answer my questions, so instead put words in my mouth, in fact the opposite of what I said.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
he called this verse wrong
You, sir, are a liar. You never quoted this, and I pointed out to you that He RODE the ass, it did not pull a chariot,
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Christian Graus wrote:
No, he won't. He stopped replying to me also, I guess because he couldn't answer my questions.
you dont know yourself what you want to ask about :> MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
I sent you the same questions via email several times, I know what I want to ask: Adnan Siddiqi wrote: JEsus will not take a bit of your sins on His shoulder in the judgment day,he will be worried himself and requesting God to let get him into heaven Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Good - so we agree that you reject Jesus and therefore His God ? Like I said at the start, I respect your right to be wrong, I won't set out to attack you personally ( although you've taken a few shots at me ). However, so long as we're discussing it, I reserve the right to point out that you are a very confused individual. You claim to believe in Jesus, but you rely on some misinterpreted old testament scripture to reject everything He stood for, in favour of a false prophet. In the New Testament church, God heals people. Do you believe that God heals you ? In the New Testament church, prophets speak regularly. Do people prophecy in Islamic churches ? In the New Testament, the church is to take communion to remember the sacrifice of Jesus. Do you do this? If the answer is no, then you reject Jesus - you should be honest enough to admit this, although you pretty much did admit it when you said that Jesus would be worried about His salvation on judgement day ( which is weird, because the day in question is the day of Jesus' return to earth, assuming you are still claiming to believe the Bible ). Out of interest, do you agree with me that Mohammed is dead ? Do you agree with me that Jesus rose from the dead and went to be with God ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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I sent you the same questions via email several times, I know what I want to ask: Adnan Siddiqi wrote: JEsus will not take a bit of your sins on His shoulder in the judgment day,he will be worried himself and requesting God to let get him into heaven Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Good - so we agree that you reject Jesus and therefore His God ? Like I said at the start, I respect your right to be wrong, I won't set out to attack you personally ( although you've taken a few shots at me ). However, so long as we're discussing it, I reserve the right to point out that you are a very confused individual. You claim to believe in Jesus, but you rely on some misinterpreted old testament scripture to reject everything He stood for, in favour of a false prophet. In the New Testament church, God heals people. Do you believe that God heals you ? In the New Testament church, prophets speak regularly. Do people prophecy in Islamic churches ? In the New Testament, the church is to take communion to remember the sacrifice of Jesus. Do you do this? If the answer is no, then you reject Jesus - you should be honest enough to admit this, although you pretty much did admit it when you said that Jesus would be worried about His salvation on judgement day ( which is weird, because the day in question is the day of Jesus' return to earth, assuming you are still claiming to believe the Bible ). Out of interest, do you agree with me that Mohammed is dead ? Do you agree with me that Jesus rose from the dead and went to be with God ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
In the New Testament church, prophets speak regularly. Do people prophecy in Islamic churches ?
Reading this several times, I was having a hard time understanding what the reference is to. As for the other comments that pertain to Islam.
Christian Graus wrote:
Good - so we agree that you reject Jesus and therefore His God ?
Muslims reject Jesus is a god, part of God, or the son of God.
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you believe that God heals you ?
Al-Shuraa:080 "And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me;In the New Testament, the church is to take communion to remember the sacrifice of Jesus. Do you do this? If the answer is no, then you reject Jesus - you should be honest enough to admit this
No, Muslims don't do that.
Christian Graus wrote:
which is weird, because the day in question is the day of Jesus' return to earth, assuming you are still claiming to believe the Bible
Muslims believe that he will come back.
Christian Graus wrote:
Out of interest, do you agree with me that Mohammed is dead ?
Without a doubt. With the refrence to the prophet Muhammad.
Az-Zumar:30 Surely you shall die and they (too) shall surely die.Christian Graus wrote:
Do you agree with me that Jesus rose from the dead and went to be with God ?
Different parts of this incident is mentioned in several places here is one.
An-Nisa:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- An-Nisa:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- -
I sent you the same questions via email several times, I know what I want to ask: Adnan Siddiqi wrote: JEsus will not take a bit of your sins on His shoulder in the judgment day,he will be worried himself and requesting God to let get him into heaven Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Good - so we agree that you reject Jesus and therefore His God ? Like I said at the start, I respect your right to be wrong, I won't set out to attack you personally ( although you've taken a few shots at me ). However, so long as we're discussing it, I reserve the right to point out that you are a very confused individual. You claim to believe in Jesus, but you rely on some misinterpreted old testament scripture to reject everything He stood for, in favour of a false prophet. In the New Testament church, God heals people. Do you believe that God heals you ? In the New Testament church, prophets speak regularly. Do people prophecy in Islamic churches ? In the New Testament, the church is to take communion to remember the sacrifice of Jesus. Do you do this? If the answer is no, then you reject Jesus - you should be honest enough to admit this, although you pretty much did admit it when you said that Jesus would be worried about His salvation on judgement day ( which is weird, because the day in question is the day of Jesus' return to earth, assuming you are still claiming to believe the Bible ). Out of interest, do you agree with me that Mohammed is dead ? Do you agree with me that Jesus rose from the dead and went to be with God ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
In the New Testament church, prophets speak regularly. Do people prophecy in Islamic churches ?
Reading this several times, I was having a hard time understanding what the reference is to. As for the other comments that pertain to Islam.
Christian Graus wrote:
Good - so we agree that you reject Jesus and therefore His God ?
Muslims reject Jesus is a god, part of God, or the son of God.
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you believe that God heals you ?
Al-Shuraa:080 "And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me;In the New Testament, the church is to take communion to remember the sacrifice of Jesus. Do you do this? If the answer is no, then you reject Jesus - you should be honest enough to admit this
No, Muslims don't do that.
Christian Graus wrote:
which is weird, because the day in question is the day of Jesus' return to earth, assuming you are still claiming to believe the Bible
Muslims believe that he will come back.
Christian Graus wrote:
Out of interest, do you agree with me that Mohammed is dead ?
Without a doubt. With the refrence to the prophet Muhammad.
Az-Zumar:30 Surely you shall die and they (too) shall surely die.Christian Graus wrote:
Do you agree with me that Jesus rose from the dead and went to be with God ?
Different parts of this incident is mentioned in several places here is one.
An-Nisa:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- An-Nisa:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-The board is being extremely annoying today I hope it doesn't double post. Quran -
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
its not matter of interpetation,i asked you about the verses in bible
Sure - you asked for my interpretation, after offering yours.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
many times you rejected the verses by saying its wrong
You continue to be deliberatly obtuse, almost as if you don't realise that I've asked you a lot of questions, which you refuse to even acknowledge, let alone answer.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
what i have felt that you dont have enough knowledge about bible
You can feel whatever makes you feel better. I know enough to ask questions from the Bible you can't answer, and either way, I don't stand before you, so your opinion doesn't matter to me.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
you simply replied Jesus was plainly a prophet, and: which is against Christianity concept of diety that is Trinity
You've suggested that this is the case ( because how can one be a prophet when one speaks of oneself ). Your argument is like everything else you say, nothing to do with God, or faith, a lot to do with word games, and semantics. Jesus was a prophet because He foretold the future. Every true prophet tells the future because they have communication with God. Your concept of the Trinity ( an idea I have not pursued at all ) has no bearing on me, or Jesus.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
he`s prolly the first chiristian who calimed that Jesus was the prophet
What's with 'the prophet' ? He was THE saviour. He was A prophet.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
i found noone who said that jesus was a prophet..
Really ? I guess they defined prophet differently to me. I say it's someone who delivers a message from God, under His inspiration.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
infact i am happy to know that chrisitan graus beliving in reality that Jesus was nothing but an ordinary man like us
Yep - you can't answer my questions, so instead put words in my mouth, in fact the opposite of what I said.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
he called this verse wrong
You, sir, are a liar. You never quoted this, and I pointed out to you that He RODE the ass, it did not pull a chariot,
It's hardly worth the effort is it, Christian? BW
Meanwhile, behind the facade of this innocent looking bookstore...
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Christian Graus wrote:
In the New Testament church, prophets speak regularly. Do people prophecy in Islamic churches ?
Reading this several times, I was having a hard time understanding what the reference is to. As for the other comments that pertain to Islam.
Christian Graus wrote:
Good - so we agree that you reject Jesus and therefore His God ?
Muslims reject Jesus is a god, part of God, or the son of God.
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you believe that God heals you ?
Al-Shuraa:080 "And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me;In the New Testament, the church is to take communion to remember the sacrifice of Jesus. Do you do this? If the answer is no, then you reject Jesus - you should be honest enough to admit this
No, Muslims don't do that.
Christian Graus wrote:
which is weird, because the day in question is the day of Jesus' return to earth, assuming you are still claiming to believe the Bible
Muslims believe that he will come back.
Christian Graus wrote:
Out of interest, do you agree with me that Mohammed is dead ?
Without a doubt. With the refrence to the prophet Muhammad.
Az-Zumar:30 Surely you shall die and they (too) shall surely die.Christian Graus wrote:
Do you agree with me that Jesus rose from the dead and went to be with God ?
Different parts of this incident is mentioned in several places here is one.
An-Nisa:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- An-Nisa:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-The board is being extremely annoying today I hope it doesn't double post. QuranA.A. wrote:
Reading this several times, I was having a hard time understanding what the reference is to.
That's fine, I don't expect you to know the Bible.
A.A. wrote:
Muslims reject Jesus is a god, part of God, or the son of God.
OK, so Muslims reject the Bible from Matthew onwards, yet somehow claim that Mohammed follows on from Jesus ?
A.A. wrote:
No, Muslims don't do that.
Again, what I don't get is that if you reject the New Testament, how can you claim Mohammed followed on from Jesus ?
A.A. wrote:
Muslims believe that he will come back.
Jesus is coming back, but He's not the son of God ? Is Mohammed coming back, too ?
A.A. wrote:
but they killed him not, nor crucified him
I don't get it - what do you believe happened to Jesus ? How do you view the New Testament ? How can your religion call Jesus the messenger of Allah, when you don't believe so much of what He is recorded as having said ? I'm really interested to know how you reconcile these things. If the NT is just plain wrong, then how do you know Jesus lived at all ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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It's hardly worth the effort is it, Christian? BW
Meanwhile, behind the facade of this innocent looking bookstore...
To be honest, I've become kind of interested to know how they justify their position. I have no trouble with them believing something different to me, that is their right. It's just that their position is self defeating, as far as I can see. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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A.A. wrote:
Reading this several times, I was having a hard time understanding what the reference is to.
That's fine, I don't expect you to know the Bible.
A.A. wrote:
Muslims reject Jesus is a god, part of God, or the son of God.
OK, so Muslims reject the Bible from Matthew onwards, yet somehow claim that Mohammed follows on from Jesus ?
A.A. wrote:
No, Muslims don't do that.
Again, what I don't get is that if you reject the New Testament, how can you claim Mohammed followed on from Jesus ?
A.A. wrote:
Muslims believe that he will come back.
Jesus is coming back, but He's not the son of God ? Is Mohammed coming back, too ?
A.A. wrote:
but they killed him not, nor crucified him
I don't get it - what do you believe happened to Jesus ? How do you view the New Testament ? How can your religion call Jesus the messenger of Allah, when you don't believe so much of what He is recorded as having said ? I'm really interested to know how you reconcile these things. If the NT is just plain wrong, then how do you know Jesus lived at all ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
That's fine, I don't expect you to know the Bible.
I thought it was a wording issue. :) 'Do people prophecy in Islamic churches ?' Is prophecy not a noun in that sentence?
Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so Muslims reject the Bible from Matthew onwards, yet somehow claim that Mohammed follows on from Jesus ?
Al-Imran:003 He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.Muslims believe in what was sent to previous messengers. Though what we have today was changed. The Islamic stance is if Islam doesnt say anything about something we do not accept it or falsify it, otherwise we falsify it if it contradicts Islam and confirm it if it is in accordance with Islam.Christian Graus wrote:
Again, what I don't get is that if you reject the New Testament, how can you claim Mohammed followed on from Jesus ?
I am not sure what you mean by 'followed on from Jesus' but all came with the same basic message:
Al-Araf:059 We sent Noah to his people. He said: "O my people! worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful day! Al-Araf:65 To the 'Ad people, (We sent) Hud, one of their (own) brethren: He said: O my people! worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him will ye not fear (Allah)?" Al-Araf:85 To the Madyan people We sent Shu'aib, one of their own brethren: he said: "O my people! worship Allah; Ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! Give just measure and weight, nor withhold from the people the things that are their due; and do no mischief on the earth after it has been set in order: that will be best for you, if ye have Faith Al-Anbiya:25 And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus is coming back, but He's not the son of God ? Is Mohammed coming back, too ?
Jesus (pbuh) is coming back and is not the son of God. Muhammad (pbuh) is dead and not coming back before the day of judgement.
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Christian Graus wrote:
That's fine, I don't expect you to know the Bible.
I thought it was a wording issue. :) 'Do people prophecy in Islamic churches ?' Is prophecy not a noun in that sentence?
Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so Muslims reject the Bible from Matthew onwards, yet somehow claim that Mohammed follows on from Jesus ?
Al-Imran:003 He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.Muslims believe in what was sent to previous messengers. Though what we have today was changed. The Islamic stance is if Islam doesnt say anything about something we do not accept it or falsify it, otherwise we falsify it if it contradicts Islam and confirm it if it is in accordance with Islam.Christian Graus wrote:
Again, what I don't get is that if you reject the New Testament, how can you claim Mohammed followed on from Jesus ?
I am not sure what you mean by 'followed on from Jesus' but all came with the same basic message:
Al-Araf:059 We sent Noah to his people. He said: "O my people! worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful day! Al-Araf:65 To the 'Ad people, (We sent) Hud, one of their (own) brethren: He said: O my people! worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him will ye not fear (Allah)?" Al-Araf:85 To the Madyan people We sent Shu'aib, one of their own brethren: he said: "O my people! worship Allah; Ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! Give just measure and weight, nor withhold from the people the things that are their due; and do no mischief on the earth after it has been set in order: that will be best for you, if ye have Faith Al-Anbiya:25 And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus is coming back, but He's not the son of God ? Is Mohammed coming back, too ?
Jesus (pbuh) is coming back and is not the son of God. Muhammad (pbuh) is dead and not coming back before the day of judgement.
A.A. wrote:
Though what we have today was changed. The Islamic stance is if Islam doesnt say anything about something we do not accept it or falsify it, otherwise we falsify it if it contradicts Islam and confirm it if it is in accordance with Islam.
Actually, the evidence is overwhelming for the Bible in it's present form. You knowingly reject any evidence that contradicts what you believe ?
A.A. wrote:
Jesus (pbuh) is coming back and is not the son of God.
The Bible has not been altered, the evidence for this is overwhelming, as I said. No other book has been concentrated on and maintained as the Bible has. So, if Jesus is coming back ( the new testament is true ), then how can He not be the Son of God ( the NT is therefore full of lies ) ?
A.A. wrote:
He was raised. If you want I can provide more details regarding this or any other part.
Well, what I fundamentally don't get is this fantasy that you can trust parts of the Bible, and reject others. It's either true, or it's not. And neither possibility allows for the existance of Islam. Jesus is either not who He said He was ( which you claim ), which means we can't trust the NT at all and should all be Jews, or He was, in which case Mohammed can't be who he claimed to be. Every prophet before Jesus spoke of one to come. If Mohammed was to come after Jesus, why didn't Jesus say so ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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A.A. wrote:
Though what we have today was changed. The Islamic stance is if Islam doesnt say anything about something we do not accept it or falsify it, otherwise we falsify it if it contradicts Islam and confirm it if it is in accordance with Islam.
Actually, the evidence is overwhelming for the Bible in it's present form. You knowingly reject any evidence that contradicts what you believe ?
A.A. wrote:
Jesus (pbuh) is coming back and is not the son of God.
The Bible has not been altered, the evidence for this is overwhelming, as I said. No other book has been concentrated on and maintained as the Bible has. So, if Jesus is coming back ( the new testament is true ), then how can He not be the Son of God ( the NT is therefore full of lies ) ?
A.A. wrote:
He was raised. If you want I can provide more details regarding this or any other part.
Well, what I fundamentally don't get is this fantasy that you can trust parts of the Bible, and reject others. It's either true, or it's not. And neither possibility allows for the existance of Islam. Jesus is either not who He said He was ( which you claim ), which means we can't trust the NT at all and should all be Jews, or He was, in which case Mohammed can't be who he claimed to be. Every prophet before Jesus spoke of one to come. If Mohammed was to come after Jesus, why didn't Jesus say so ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Actually, the evidence is overwhelming for the Bible in it's present form.
What percentage were words that Jesus uttered? What percentage of it exists in original form?
Christian Graus wrote:
The Bible has not been altered, the evidence for this is overwhelming, as I said. No other book has been concentrated on and maintained as the Bible has.
The Quran has been transferred and memorized from generation to generation by millions upon millions of people in the same form throughout the world.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, if Jesus is coming back ( the new testament is true ), then how can He not be the Son of God ( the NT is therefore full of lies ) ?
My previous point on how we deal with what was brought to the people of the Book [think Christians/Jews] is that we can’t deny what Islam did not speak about because from the Islamic point of view these religion/books were based on truth and still contain some, but we also believe that they were changed.
Christian Graus wrote:
Every prophet before Jesus spoke of one to come. If Mohammed was to come after Jesus, why didn't Jesus say so ?
The Quran tells us otherwise.
Al-Araf:157 "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." Al-Araf:158 Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."Quran -
Christian Graus wrote:
Actually, the evidence is overwhelming for the Bible in it's present form.
What percentage were words that Jesus uttered? What percentage of it exists in original form?
Christian Graus wrote:
The Bible has not been altered, the evidence for this is overwhelming, as I said. No other book has been concentrated on and maintained as the Bible has.
The Quran has been transferred and memorized from generation to generation by millions upon millions of people in the same form throughout the world.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, if Jesus is coming back ( the new testament is true ), then how can He not be the Son of God ( the NT is therefore full of lies ) ?
My previous point on how we deal with what was brought to the people of the Book [think Christians/Jews] is that we can’t deny what Islam did not speak about because from the Islamic point of view these religion/books were based on truth and still contain some, but we also believe that they were changed.
Christian Graus wrote:
Every prophet before Jesus spoke of one to come. If Mohammed was to come after Jesus, why didn't Jesus say so ?
The Quran tells us otherwise.
Al-Araf:157 "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." Al-Araf:158 Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."QuranA.A. wrote:
What percentage were words that Jesus uttered?
I've never counted. The bulk of four of the larger books, plus some of Acts.
A.A. wrote:
What percentage of it exists in original form?
Most of it comes pretty close. The problem you have is this - if you don't trust the NT, how do you trust in Jesus at all, which, if you're a Muslim, you claim to do.
A.A. wrote:
The Quran has been transferred and memorized from generation to generation by millions upon millions of people in the same form throughout the world.
No more or less than the Bible has.
A.A. wrote:
because from the Islamic point of view these religion/books were based on truth and still contain some, but we also believe that they were changed
If when Islam came into being, the Bible was true, why didn't you guys preserve that, the same as you claim to have preserved the Quran ? This makes no sense at all.
A.A. wrote:
The Quran tells us otherwise.
You miss my point. I could care less what the Quran says, I expect it to uphold itself. If Jesus was a prophet, and then Mohammed was, why didn't JESUS tell us that there was one to follow, as every prophet before had done ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++