Kerry K. Gates MSDN magazine publisher thinks Canadians are US citizens!
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How many people here outside the U.S. are as annoyed as I am to continually get otherwise legitimate offers from Microsoft and others in email only to see the fine print that you must be in the U.S. to get the offer? :mad: I get an offer this morningn via email for a free MSDN magazine subscription as a bonus for being an MSDN universal subscriber, courtesy of "Kerry K. Gates, Publisher". Telling me how great it is and how absolutely free and how to sign up etc etc. Then at the fine print at the bottom "*You must be an active MSDN Universal subscriber in the U.S. to take advantage of this offer." Apparently they either don't know how to restrict their mass email query from their own MSDN subscriber database to "WHERE Country='USA'" or they just figure that sending out all those emails to so many people who can't take advantage of it and are going to get pissed off and have their time wasted is just plain funny! Oh, and to top it off, no reply address you can use to tell them how friggin stupid they are, so let me just say "Kerry K. Gates" if in fact that is your name, I wish I could email you, but I'll have to settle for a mini-rant here instead. :mad:
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
Hey John, I know Kerry very well and she's a great person. She knows exactly where Canada is too (she lives in Nebraska btw - not that that in any way makes her a Geography expert). I have no idea why they didn't filter their list to US subscribers only but it's quite possible that they can't. FWIW, the folks at MSDN Magazine are good friends and have been strong supporters of CodeProject from early on. David
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Sounds about average to me. Most Americans seem to think one of the following. a. The whole world IS American b. The whole world SHOULD BE American c. The Whole world would LOVE TO BE American Troll. Troll. Sorry. ;P JJ
I remember Jay Leno asking people on the street what was the first thing north of the USA. The answers were: - Nothing - North Pole - State of Canada Some people are really clueless :) Carl Mercier Geek entrepreneurs, visit my blog! [^]
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Don't get too mad at me for saying this, but my aunt thought Canada is an US state when I told her I am going there. I had to spent 5 minutes with her to convince her that it's not. I think the first thing Canadians need to do to get a separate identity is to ask for a separate country phone code. Right now, Canada uses +1 which is an US/Caribbean thing I think.
[Old Kids in the Hall skit] Dave Foley: "Hi, I'm Dave. I'm a Canadian." Other person: "Canadian? What's that?" Dave Foley: "It's like an American, but without a gun." -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Hey John, I know Kerry very well and she's a great person. She knows exactly where Canada is too (she lives in Nebraska btw - not that that in any way makes her a Geography expert). I have no idea why they didn't filter their list to US subscribers only but it's quite possible that they can't. FWIW, the folks at MSDN Magazine are good friends and have been strong supporters of CodeProject from early on. David
Well I'm sure she probably is a great person and I'm glad they have been strong supporters of C.P., I did my bit by buying the MSDN universal through CodeProject in the first place, but the fact remains she put her name on a silly email without confirming it was going to the right people and the bit that makes me particularly angry and prompted my post here: not providing any way for anyone to respond to the email to let them know of their mistake and on top of it all, by not confirming that the email was only going to U.S. based subscribers showing everyone else that they don't rate as highly as American subscribers. If I sent out an offer to our clients and blanketed our entire client base but restricted the offer to a single country the result would be what can only be described as a shit storm so I would naturally make the effort to ensure that didn't happen (although we would never make an offer based on a particular nationality in the first place). I could charitably call it a marketing fiasco I guess and leave it at that.
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
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[Old Kids in the Hall skit] Dave Foley: "Hi, I'm Dave. I'm a Canadian." Other person: "Canadian? What's that?" Dave Foley: "It's like an American, but without a gun." -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
If it wasn't for the League of Gentlemen and Little Brittain I would still be pining away over the loss of such great black humour. The kids in the hall were great!
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
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Well I'm sure she probably is a great person and I'm glad they have been strong supporters of C.P., I did my bit by buying the MSDN universal through CodeProject in the first place, but the fact remains she put her name on a silly email without confirming it was going to the right people and the bit that makes me particularly angry and prompted my post here: not providing any way for anyone to respond to the email to let them know of their mistake and on top of it all, by not confirming that the email was only going to U.S. based subscribers showing everyone else that they don't rate as highly as American subscribers. If I sent out an offer to our clients and blanketed our entire client base but restricted the offer to a single country the result would be what can only be described as a shit storm so I would naturally make the effort to ensure that didn't happen (although we would never make an offer based on a particular nationality in the first place). I could charitably call it a marketing fiasco I guess and leave it at that.
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
All very good points John, and I'm not disputing them. I was taken aback I suppose because it seemed like a personal attack on Kerry and I couldn't stay quiet about that. She's a good egg, and very good at her job. You have every right to take offense to the way the offer was put forward. We've seen this over and over again from Microsoft: they seem to make a point of telling the whole World what they are not eligible for. David
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Well I'm sure she probably is a great person and I'm glad they have been strong supporters of C.P., I did my bit by buying the MSDN universal through CodeProject in the first place, but the fact remains she put her name on a silly email without confirming it was going to the right people and the bit that makes me particularly angry and prompted my post here: not providing any way for anyone to respond to the email to let them know of their mistake and on top of it all, by not confirming that the email was only going to U.S. based subscribers showing everyone else that they don't rate as highly as American subscribers. If I sent out an offer to our clients and blanketed our entire client base but restricted the offer to a single country the result would be what can only be described as a shit storm so I would naturally make the effort to ensure that didn't happen (although we would never make an offer based on a particular nationality in the first place). I could charitably call it a marketing fiasco I guess and leave it at that.
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
I moved from North Carolina to Maryland three years ago and I still get advertisements from my NC dentist and car dealership. Obviously I'm not going to make a 6 hour drive for a dentist appointment so of course these ads are just a waste of money. I just throw them away.... what's the big deal?:((
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I moved from North Carolina to Maryland three years ago and I still get advertisements from my NC dentist and car dealership. Obviously I'm not going to make a 6 hour drive for a dentist appointment so of course these ads are just a waste of money. I just throw them away.... what's the big deal?:((
You're not a customer anymore so you don't care. It would be more like your current cell phone service provider writes you to tell you you get a free phone upgrade. Offer valid only if you live in Mexico.
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Well I'm sure she probably is a great person and I'm glad they have been strong supporters of C.P., I did my bit by buying the MSDN universal through CodeProject in the first place, but the fact remains she put her name on a silly email without confirming it was going to the right people and the bit that makes me particularly angry and prompted my post here: not providing any way for anyone to respond to the email to let them know of their mistake and on top of it all, by not confirming that the email was only going to U.S. based subscribers showing everyone else that they don't rate as highly as American subscribers. If I sent out an offer to our clients and blanketed our entire client base but restricted the offer to a single country the result would be what can only be described as a shit storm so I would naturally make the effort to ensure that didn't happen (although we would never make an offer based on a particular nationality in the first place). I could charitably call it a marketing fiasco I guess and leave it at that.
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
Hello, Since my name is on the mail you received, I of course must take responsibility. Please note that MOST MSDN Universal subscribers are only registered through e-mail, making it impossible to distinguish where you or anyone else is located. In short, the database cannot distinguish where a subscriber resides. John, our offers are not based on nationality, the charges for those residing outside the US merely cover postage costs. There are no charges in the US as the postage here is far cheaper than in Canada. By the way I do know where Canada is and have enjoyed the land and the people on many occasions. I do apologize for the obvious pain and irritation this has caused you. Kerry
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What!!!! WTF??? Other Countries??? Pfft, next you'll tell me there are other languages besides English! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Hello, Since my name is on the mail you received, I of course must take responsibility. Please note that MOST MSDN Universal subscribers are only registered through e-mail, making it impossible to distinguish where you or anyone else is located. In short, the database cannot distinguish where a subscriber resides. John, our offers are not based on nationality, the charges for those residing outside the US merely cover postage costs. There are no charges in the US as the postage here is far cheaper than in Canada. By the way I do know where Canada is and have enjoyed the land and the people on many occasions. I do apologize for the obvious pain and irritation this has caused you. Kerry
"John, our offers are not based on nationality, the charges for those residing outside the US merely cover postage costs. There are no charges in the US as the postage here is far cheaper than in Canada." I can see both sides of the arguement and I am very comfortable on my fence, but I think that John's main gripe was that the email said that the offer was only good for US citizens. The question that I have is: Is that really what the email said? And, if the email offer didn't say that those outside the US could take offer but have to cover the cost of mailing, shouldn't that be added to avoid some confusion? Perhaps the wording of the email is the actual issue....not the intention behind it. Just my $0.00000000002 worth. Why is common sense not common? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert.
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Hello, Since my name is on the mail you received, I of course must take responsibility. Please note that MOST MSDN Universal subscribers are only registered through e-mail, making it impossible to distinguish where you or anyone else is located. In short, the database cannot distinguish where a subscriber resides. John, our offers are not based on nationality, the charges for those residing outside the US merely cover postage costs. There are no charges in the US as the postage here is far cheaper than in Canada. By the way I do know where Canada is and have enjoyed the land and the people on many occasions. I do apologize for the obvious pain and irritation this has caused you. Kerry
Hi Kerry, thank you for responding, the mighty power of CodeProject in evidence once again! I would certainly have preferred to just respond to the email unfortunately there was no option given for that and the email in question was probably about the zillionth such I've received over the years causing me to finally blow up. I apologize for my inflammatory subject in this post, it was attention grabbing, but in hindsight over the line, particularly since you took the time to respond personally. I of course do understand that it's common for marketing efforts to go on without the full knowledge of the person in charge and I extend my sympathies to you for unknowingly being made to appear foolish to so many thousands of non-U.S. subscribers.
Kerry Gates wrote:
Please note that MOST MSDN Universal subscribers are only registered through e-mail, making it impossible to distinguish where you or anyone else is located.
This is news to me, I wonder how they manage to get those dvd's sent to me each month without my physical address! :) And why my address is required to subscribe if no record is kept of it. Or how Microsoft knows they are not sending software to embargoed countries etc etc etc. I guess in short I don't agree at all with this assessment, perhaps you were mis-informed.
Kerry Gates wrote:
John, our offers are not based on nationality, the charges for those residing outside the US merely cover postage costs. There are no charges in the US as the postage here is far cheaper than in Canada.
If I may take the liberty of interpretation here, I think what you are saying is that the US postage to mail an item out of the U.S. into Canada is more expensive, it's certainly not been my experience that it's more expensive to mail an item within Canada. Perhaps the email should have included this information to make it more effective and get more people to sign up? What it did say was that the offer is valid only to people in the U.S. That certainly on the surface appears to state that the offer *is* based on nationality. Not on postage costs.
Kerry Gates wrote:
do apologize for the obvious pain and irritation this has caused you.
I appreciate your apology, however please note it's all irritation, no pain was involved unless you're sending the big guy in "customer relations" to my office with a baseball bat. ;)
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Hello, Since my name is on the mail you received, I of course must take responsibility. Please note that MOST MSDN Universal subscribers are only registered through e-mail, making it impossible to distinguish where you or anyone else is located. In short, the database cannot distinguish where a subscriber resides. John, our offers are not based on nationality, the charges for those residing outside the US merely cover postage costs. There are no charges in the US as the postage here is far cheaper than in Canada. By the way I do know where Canada is and have enjoyed the land and the people on many occasions. I do apologize for the obvious pain and irritation this has caused you. Kerry
Kerry Gates wrote:
Please note that MOST MSDN Universal subscribers are only registered through e-mail, making it impossible to distinguish where you or anyone else is located. In short, the database cannot distinguish where a subscriber resides.
But doesn't the MSDN profile hold the subscriber's address details? How else would the CDs, DVDs and stuff be sent out? Also, people outside North America - like people from India, Japan, South Africa etc don't receive these emails. So looks like, there is some flag that marks a subscription as within North America, but there is probably no distinguishing sub-flag to differentiate between Canada and the US.
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"John, our offers are not based on nationality, the charges for those residing outside the US merely cover postage costs. There are no charges in the US as the postage here is far cheaper than in Canada." I can see both sides of the arguement and I am very comfortable on my fence, but I think that John's main gripe was that the email said that the offer was only good for US citizens. The question that I have is: Is that really what the email said? And, if the email offer didn't say that those outside the US could take offer but have to cover the cost of mailing, shouldn't that be added to avoid some confusion? Perhaps the wording of the email is the actual issue....not the intention behind it. Just my $0.00000000002 worth. Why is common sense not common? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert.
Wes Aday wrote:
Is that really what the email said
Yup, I copy/pasted from it in my original post
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
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I moved from North Carolina to Maryland three years ago and I still get advertisements from my NC dentist and car dealership. Obviously I'm not going to make a 6 hour drive for a dentist appointment so of course these ads are just a waste of money. I just throw them away.... what's the big deal?:((
Well it's a peculiar annoyance that you would probably only fully feel if you were living outside the U.S. and been suffering from this same thing happening over and over. A company that I have personally paid tens of thousands of dollars to over the years makes me an offer for something for free which I could acutally find useful, they absolutely do have my current address, in fact they mail me a pack of dvd's once a month, but despite that they tell me at the bottom of the email that I don't qualify because I live outside the U.S. It's a bit different than moving and a company not getting the new address updated. There are a lot of people here over the years that reside outside the U.S. that have posted similar complaints about Microsoft mainly and others. It ties into the perception that Amercian companies don't really understand that there is a whole world out there and take that into consideration when making these offers despite the fact that they make a lot of money selling things to those same people. In other words they are perfectly willing to make every effort to sell you something but don't make a tenth of the effort to reward you with something.
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
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Kerry Gates wrote:
Please note that MOST MSDN Universal subscribers are only registered through e-mail, making it impossible to distinguish where you or anyone else is located. In short, the database cannot distinguish where a subscriber resides.
But doesn't the MSDN profile hold the subscriber's address details? How else would the CDs, DVDs and stuff be sent out? Also, people outside North America - like people from India, Japan, South Africa etc don't receive these emails. So looks like, there is some flag that marks a subscription as within North America, but there is probably no distinguishing sub-flag to differentiate between Canada and the US.
Hello Nishant, We are not Microsoft-the folks that send you those handy dandy DVD's and such. I work at CMP media and co produce the magazine with Microsoft. The privacy laws effect the detail we can use and see in the database. This is a good thing, but it can cause issues like this. Subs outside of North American do not recieve this mail, as we offer MSDN Magazine in those areas through a licensee. We currently have MSDN Mag Russia, Brazil, Australia, NZ and India and the EMEA. We are trying to get the Magazine out in as many places as possible. Thanks. Kerry
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Hi Kerry, thank you for responding, the mighty power of CodeProject in evidence once again! I would certainly have preferred to just respond to the email unfortunately there was no option given for that and the email in question was probably about the zillionth such I've received over the years causing me to finally blow up. I apologize for my inflammatory subject in this post, it was attention grabbing, but in hindsight over the line, particularly since you took the time to respond personally. I of course do understand that it's common for marketing efforts to go on without the full knowledge of the person in charge and I extend my sympathies to you for unknowingly being made to appear foolish to so many thousands of non-U.S. subscribers.
Kerry Gates wrote:
Please note that MOST MSDN Universal subscribers are only registered through e-mail, making it impossible to distinguish where you or anyone else is located.
This is news to me, I wonder how they manage to get those dvd's sent to me each month without my physical address! :) And why my address is required to subscribe if no record is kept of it. Or how Microsoft knows they are not sending software to embargoed countries etc etc etc. I guess in short I don't agree at all with this assessment, perhaps you were mis-informed.
Kerry Gates wrote:
John, our offers are not based on nationality, the charges for those residing outside the US merely cover postage costs. There are no charges in the US as the postage here is far cheaper than in Canada.
If I may take the liberty of interpretation here, I think what you are saying is that the US postage to mail an item out of the U.S. into Canada is more expensive, it's certainly not been my experience that it's more expensive to mail an item within Canada. Perhaps the email should have included this information to make it more effective and get more people to sign up? What it did say was that the offer is valid only to people in the U.S. That certainly on the surface appears to state that the offer *is* based on nationality. Not on postage costs.
Kerry Gates wrote:
do apologize for the obvious pain and irritation this has caused you.
I appreciate your apology, however please note it's all irritation, no pain was involved unless you're sending the big guy in "customer relations" to my office with a baseball bat. ;)
Hello Thanks for the reply. Please note my reply to another post in regards to addresses. No, not mis-informed at all. Much of what you have suggested has been sent to the three people that have input on the language and text of the e-mails that go out. Thanks for the dialog. Oh and I would never send anyone but myself when it involves customer relations. Best, Kerry
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What!!!! WTF??? Other Countries??? Pfft, next you'll tell me there are other languages besides English! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Jim Crafton wrote:
next you'll tell me there are other languages besides English!
Yes and Americans speak one of them! The tigress is here :-D
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Well it's a peculiar annoyance that you would probably only fully feel if you were living outside the U.S. and been suffering from this same thing happening over and over. A company that I have personally paid tens of thousands of dollars to over the years makes me an offer for something for free which I could acutally find useful, they absolutely do have my current address, in fact they mail me a pack of dvd's once a month, but despite that they tell me at the bottom of the email that I don't qualify because I live outside the U.S. It's a bit different than moving and a company not getting the new address updated. There are a lot of people here over the years that reside outside the U.S. that have posted similar complaints about Microsoft mainly and others. It ties into the perception that Amercian companies don't really understand that there is a whole world out there and take that into consideration when making these offers despite the fact that they make a lot of money selling things to those same people. In other words they are perfectly willing to make every effort to sell you something but don't make a tenth of the effort to reward you with something.
"Hello, hello, what's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here! This is a Local Shop for Local People, there's nothing for you here!" -Edward Tattsyrup
I've seen/heard this complaint hundred's of times. But rather than wonder why the vendors are too stupid to filter better I'm more curious as to why the offer is limited to US citizens in the first place ? Come on, do you believe the vendors *really* think non-US citizens are less worthy ? There has to be a better explanation. Obviously there must be some other barrier that is causing the vendor to restrict the offer. Wouldn't ire be better targeted at that ? ... but getting back to the point of stupidity and marketing, I've know of at least one insurance company that sends sales literature to people their database knows are dead ... now tell me mailing to dead people isnt at least as stupid as mailing to Candians :-) "We need less government, not more. The idea that we can become a better society by having a bigger rule book is ridiculous, regardless of who is trying to change the rules" - Doug Goulden
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Hello Nishant, We are not Microsoft-the folks that send you those handy dandy DVD's and such. I work at CMP media and co produce the magazine with Microsoft. The privacy laws effect the detail we can use and see in the database. This is a good thing, but it can cause issues like this. Subs outside of North American do not recieve this mail, as we offer MSDN Magazine in those areas through a licensee. We currently have MSDN Mag Russia, Brazil, Australia, NZ and India and the EMEA. We are trying to get the Magazine out in as many places as possible. Thanks. Kerry
Thanks for clearing that up, Kerry.