MSDN Universal vs. VST-Suite
-
This just in from my MVP rep: Existing MSDN Universal licenses will transition to a choice of VST-A/D/T and have a 180 day trial to VSTS. Between 1st Nov 05 and 30th Jun 06, customers will be able to upgrade existing licenses to VST-Suite for the difference in the renewal price. This is available in Open Value or Retail at approx $1,200 per license, per year remaining on their agreement. For expired subscriptions, the cost to renew and upgrade would be approx $3,500pa. And, in part, my response (not trying to shoot the messenger, as my MVP rep is great): This truly sucks, and I hope you convey that to the idiots that decided to rape us MSDN Universal members for another $1200 to obtain the VSTS. We're Universal members for a reason--because we wear many hats--and this is pretty insulting, given how the A/D/T tracks individually have so many features missing that no one track fits the requirements of, at least, my work. I obviously don't expect Microsoft to change their policy on Universal members at this point, nor the ridiculous feature set combination. But please be aware that I am displeased to the extreme with this product versioning structure. It is not small-consultant friendly, and frankly, I will probably be recommending open source alternatives to the entire VS suite because of this, and investigating those alternatives myself. MVP status is great, but if you can't give us the tools to do our jobs, what value is it? So, can we all get on board and tell Microsoft how pissed off we are with 4 versions of VS, three of which are useless for a lot of us? Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Maybe it is best to just leave the TS and stay with their "premium" (I believe it is called that is more like the Universal Subscriptin) and find alternatives for there TS features. It is a lot out of the box to pay over $3,500 for those extras. Rocky <>< Latest Post: Time for change! Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
-
This just in from my MVP rep: Existing MSDN Universal licenses will transition to a choice of VST-A/D/T and have a 180 day trial to VSTS. Between 1st Nov 05 and 30th Jun 06, customers will be able to upgrade existing licenses to VST-Suite for the difference in the renewal price. This is available in Open Value or Retail at approx $1,200 per license, per year remaining on their agreement. For expired subscriptions, the cost to renew and upgrade would be approx $3,500pa. And, in part, my response (not trying to shoot the messenger, as my MVP rep is great): This truly sucks, and I hope you convey that to the idiots that decided to rape us MSDN Universal members for another $1200 to obtain the VSTS. We're Universal members for a reason--because we wear many hats--and this is pretty insulting, given how the A/D/T tracks individually have so many features missing that no one track fits the requirements of, at least, my work. I obviously don't expect Microsoft to change their policy on Universal members at this point, nor the ridiculous feature set combination. But please be aware that I am displeased to the extreme with this product versioning structure. It is not small-consultant friendly, and frankly, I will probably be recommending open source alternatives to the entire VS suite because of this, and investigating those alternatives myself. MVP status is great, but if you can't give us the tools to do our jobs, what value is it? So, can we all get on board and tell Microsoft how pissed off we are with 4 versions of VS, three of which are useless for a lot of us? Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Marc Clifton wrote:
MVP status is great, but if you can't give us the tools to do our jobs, what value is it?
You're an MVP ? I didn't know that. That being the case, you get an upgrade to MSDN with VSTS for free, although I think the deadline has just expired, you may need to contact your lead PDQ. And given that team system is a totally new product, and a huge one, I don't see any reason why you'd get it on top of what essentially is the stuff you were getting all along. None of the stuff you're paying extra for has an equivelant in the stuff you used to get. Having said that, I think the team system is going to be a hard sell for Microsoft, because we're just so used to getting the tools so cheap. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Developer MVPs have the "special" option to upgrade their MSDN Universal to VST-S.
So, your saying that an MVP can upgrade to VSTS, while non-MVP Universal people have to shell out $1200? If true, that information is not conveyed at all [edit] nor is it fair to non-MVP Universal people, IMO [/edit] Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome! -- modified at 14:30 Thursday 3rd November, 2005
Marc Clifton wrote:
So, your saying that an MVP can upgrade to VSTS
In addition to what Nish said, non-dev MVPs were free to apply to their lead if they felt they had a use for it.
Marc Clifton wrote:
while non-MVP Universal people have to shell out $1200?
MVPs get the top MSDN for free. Therefore, price doesn't come into it. There's a big new product in the Microsoft camp, and there's new MSDN subscriptions that take this into account.
Marc Clifton wrote:
nor is it fair to non-MVP Universal people, IMO
I don't agree. Obviously, I get it for free, and I'm very grateful for that, but it also means my thoughts are on an academic level, my pocket is not hurting. But the stuff that seperates the versions of VS is all stuff that plain wasn't there at all before. So, nothing is being taken away. I always felt that the different versions were dumb, they are obviously targetted at huge organisations where devs do no testing and no architecting either. But the VSTS version addresses that ( I'm running it, I love it ), admittedly at a price, but if you can't justify the price, perhaps you don't need the tools ( which you didn't have in the IDE before anyhow ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
MVP status is great, but if you can't give us the tools to do our jobs, what value is it?
You're an MVP ? I didn't know that. That being the case, you get an upgrade to MSDN with VSTS for free, although I think the deadline has just expired, you may need to contact your lead PDQ. And given that team system is a totally new product, and a huge one, I don't see any reason why you'd get it on top of what essentially is the stuff you were getting all along. None of the stuff you're paying extra for has an equivelant in the stuff you used to get. Having said that, I think the team system is going to be a hard sell for Microsoft, because we're just so used to getting the tools so cheap. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
You're an MVP ? I didn't know that.
I think you have a short memory, or I have a faulty one. Didn't you mention this before, and we got into some discussion on declarative programming?
Christian Graus wrote:
you get an upgrade to MSDN with VSTS for free, although I think the deadline has just expired, you may need to contact your lead PDQ.
I haven't come across any information, emails, etc., that mention that. It all seems very ill-defined.
Christian Graus wrote:
And given that team system is a totally new product, and a huge one, I don't see any reason why you'd get it on top of what essentially is the stuff you were getting all along. None of the stuff you're paying extra for has an equivelant in the stuff you used to get.
To some extent, I can understand that. I suppose even that Microsoft thinks they are helping people out by giving them some extra tools based on the pigeon holed role of architect, developer, or tester. However, I think Microsoft has made things confusing. I can just imagine in a company, sitting down at, say, the tester's system and saying, "hey, where's my developer tool that I use on my workstation?"
Christian Graus wrote:
Having said that, I think the team system is going to be a hard sell for Microsoft, because we're just so used to getting the tools so cheap.
I don't think the developer tools are cheap, unless you go the #D / other OS/freeware route. But yes, I do think the -S version will be a hard sell. Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
So, your saying that an MVP can upgrade to VSTS
In addition to what Nish said, non-dev MVPs were free to apply to their lead if they felt they had a use for it.
Marc Clifton wrote:
while non-MVP Universal people have to shell out $1200?
MVPs get the top MSDN for free. Therefore, price doesn't come into it. There's a big new product in the Microsoft camp, and there's new MSDN subscriptions that take this into account.
Marc Clifton wrote:
nor is it fair to non-MVP Universal people, IMO
I don't agree. Obviously, I get it for free, and I'm very grateful for that, but it also means my thoughts are on an academic level, my pocket is not hurting. But the stuff that seperates the versions of VS is all stuff that plain wasn't there at all before. So, nothing is being taken away. I always felt that the different versions were dumb, they are obviously targetted at huge organisations where devs do no testing and no architecting either. But the VSTS version addresses that ( I'm running it, I love it ), admittedly at a price, but if you can't justify the price, perhaps you don't need the tools ( which you didn't have in the IDE before anyhow ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
But the stuff that seperates the versions of VS is all stuff that plain wasn't there at all before. So, nothing is being taken away.
OK, but to a certain extent, if I have an MSDN Universal subscription, I feel that it should live up to its name. Universal in product line. Of course, that kind of thinking does make it impossible for them to ever raise the price on an individual product. But think about it--what else am I getting for my additional $1200 (barring the MVP status thing) besides Team Suite features? $1200 for a product upgrade is outrageous, IMO., especially if you consider the yearly renewal that many MSDN subscribers pay every year. Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
-
Christian Graus wrote:
You're an MVP ? I didn't know that.
I think you have a short memory, or I have a faulty one. Didn't you mention this before, and we got into some discussion on declarative programming?
Christian Graus wrote:
you get an upgrade to MSDN with VSTS for free, although I think the deadline has just expired, you may need to contact your lead PDQ.
I haven't come across any information, emails, etc., that mention that. It all seems very ill-defined.
Christian Graus wrote:
And given that team system is a totally new product, and a huge one, I don't see any reason why you'd get it on top of what essentially is the stuff you were getting all along. None of the stuff you're paying extra for has an equivelant in the stuff you used to get.
To some extent, I can understand that. I suppose even that Microsoft thinks they are helping people out by giving them some extra tools based on the pigeon holed role of architect, developer, or tester. However, I think Microsoft has made things confusing. I can just imagine in a company, sitting down at, say, the tester's system and saying, "hey, where's my developer tool that I use on my workstation?"
Christian Graus wrote:
Having said that, I think the team system is going to be a hard sell for Microsoft, because we're just so used to getting the tools so cheap.
I don't think the developer tools are cheap, unless you go the #D / other OS/freeware route. But yes, I do think the -S version will be a hard sell. Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Marc Clifton wrote:
I think you have a short memory, or I have a faulty one.
Ah, yes. You couldn't come to the summit because it was your chance to spend time with your child ( son, I think ). I am so busy nowadays, I barely know what day it is.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I haven't come across any information, emails, etc., that mention that. It all seems very ill-defined.
I got another email from my lead this morning, which he sent because the first one didn't have [MVP] at the front, or come from him. I've had quite a few, and it's all been pretty well defined. They sent me a link I had to go to in order to register my desire to upgrade for free.
Marc Clifton wrote:
However, I think Microsoft has made things confusing.
What, for the first time ? :P
Marc Clifton wrote:
I can just imagine in a company, sitting down at, say, the tester's system and saying, "hey, where's my developer tool that I use on my workstation?"
I suspect the system is largely built around how they work themselves, and therefore not as well geared for smaller shops as it could be.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I don't think the developer tools are cheap, unless you go the #D / other OS/freeware route.
Depends on how you look at it. If I consider how much money I make out of VS, I would have to say that I could afford to buy VS2003. Considering how much my employer makes out of it, they can certainly afford VSTS, and will probably save money out of buying it. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
Christian Graus wrote:
But the stuff that seperates the versions of VS is all stuff that plain wasn't there at all before. So, nothing is being taken away.
OK, but to a certain extent, if I have an MSDN Universal subscription, I feel that it should live up to its name. Universal in product line. Of course, that kind of thinking does make it impossible for them to ever raise the price on an individual product. But think about it--what else am I getting for my additional $1200 (barring the MVP status thing) besides Team Suite features? $1200 for a product upgrade is outrageous, IMO., especially if you consider the yearly renewal that many MSDN subscribers pay every year. Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Marc Clifton wrote:
I feel that it should live up to its name
So you think the one you have now should change it's name, and the one with TS should become the Universal version ? And you say Microsoft are confusing people ? :P Seriously, it's just a name, it was accurate, but it's not anymore, for reasons that are obvious.
Marc Clifton wrote:
But think about it--what else am I getting for my additional $1200 (barring the MVP status thing) besides Team Suite features?
Do you know how much it costs for a Universal subscriber to buy the upgrades they need to have the team suite running ? It's about $3500, I believe. At least, that's the lowest figure I have heard.
Marc Clifton wrote:
especially if you consider the yearly renewal that many MSDN subscribers pay every year.
Yeah, I guess that's a factor I had not considered. I'm sending you a couple of tips, by the way :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
I think you have a short memory, or I have a faulty one.
Ah, yes. You couldn't come to the summit because it was your chance to spend time with your child ( son, I think ). I am so busy nowadays, I barely know what day it is.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I haven't come across any information, emails, etc., that mention that. It all seems very ill-defined.
I got another email from my lead this morning, which he sent because the first one didn't have [MVP] at the front, or come from him. I've had quite a few, and it's all been pretty well defined. They sent me a link I had to go to in order to register my desire to upgrade for free.
Marc Clifton wrote:
However, I think Microsoft has made things confusing.
What, for the first time ? :P
Marc Clifton wrote:
I can just imagine in a company, sitting down at, say, the tester's system and saying, "hey, where's my developer tool that I use on my workstation?"
I suspect the system is largely built around how they work themselves, and therefore not as well geared for smaller shops as it could be.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I don't think the developer tools are cheap, unless you go the #D / other OS/freeware route.
Depends on how you look at it. If I consider how much money I make out of VS, I would have to say that I could afford to buy VS2003. Considering how much my employer makes out of it, they can certainly afford VSTS, and will probably save money out of buying it. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
If I consider how much money I make out of VS, I would have to say that I could afford to buy VS2003. Considering how much my employer makes out of it, they can certainly afford VSTS, and will probably save money out of buying it.
I would agree for an established consultancy or business. For a startup though, the cost is prohibitive, IMO. One can argue that if you can't afford $3-$4K up front investment for tools, you shouldn't be in business, but still, given that there are free alternatives... The result though will be that the additional cost will be passed down to the customer/client, or businesses may choose not to retool. Keep in mind that there are other costs in retooling as well--retesting, new features to learn, documentation updates, installation updates, etc. Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
I feel that it should live up to its name
So you think the one you have now should change it's name, and the one with TS should become the Universal version ? And you say Microsoft are confusing people ? :P Seriously, it's just a name, it was accurate, but it's not anymore, for reasons that are obvious.
Marc Clifton wrote:
But think about it--what else am I getting for my additional $1200 (barring the MVP status thing) besides Team Suite features?
Do you know how much it costs for a Universal subscriber to buy the upgrades they need to have the team suite running ? It's about $3500, I believe. At least, that's the lowest figure I have heard.
Marc Clifton wrote:
especially if you consider the yearly renewal that many MSDN subscribers pay every year.
Yeah, I guess that's a factor I had not considered. I'm sending you a couple of tips, by the way :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Seriously, it's just a name, it was accurate, but it's not anymore, for reasons that are obvious.
A rose by any other name... :)
Christian Graus wrote:
It's about $3500, I believe. At least, that's the lowest figure I have heard.
Ah. And Nish posted an interesting link to a white paper on Team Suite licensing. Interesting read.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sending you a couple of tips, by the way
Thanks! BTW, it's nice to have a conversation without CP crashing all the time. :) Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
-
Christian Graus wrote:
Seriously, it's just a name, it was accurate, but it's not anymore, for reasons that are obvious.
A rose by any other name... :)
Christian Graus wrote:
It's about $3500, I believe. At least, that's the lowest figure I have heard.
Ah. And Nish posted an interesting link to a white paper on Team Suite licensing. Interesting read.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sending you a couple of tips, by the way
Thanks! BTW, it's nice to have a conversation without CP crashing all the time. :) Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Marc Clifton wrote:
BTW, it's nice to have a conversation without CP crashing all the time.
Yes, it does make a nice change from the usual. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
So, your saying that an MVP can upgrade to VSTS
In addition to what Nish said, non-dev MVPs were free to apply to their lead if they felt they had a use for it.
Marc Clifton wrote:
while non-MVP Universal people have to shell out $1200?
MVPs get the top MSDN for free. Therefore, price doesn't come into it. There's a big new product in the Microsoft camp, and there's new MSDN subscriptions that take this into account.
Marc Clifton wrote:
nor is it fair to non-MVP Universal people, IMO
I don't agree. Obviously, I get it for free, and I'm very grateful for that, but it also means my thoughts are on an academic level, my pocket is not hurting. But the stuff that seperates the versions of VS is all stuff that plain wasn't there at all before. So, nothing is being taken away. I always felt that the different versions were dumb, they are obviously targetted at huge organisations where devs do no testing and no architecting either. But the VSTS version addresses that ( I'm running it, I love it ), admittedly at a price, but if you can't justify the price, perhaps you don't need the tools ( which you didn't have in the IDE before anyhow ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
but if you can't justify the price, perhaps you don't need the tools ( which you didn't have in the IDE before anyhow ).
That's what ticks me off with this whole thing. You describe the vibe that I'm getting from Microsoft. I know that I didn't have these tools before, and at the price they have set, I probably will continue to use the open source tools that I have been using. Plus, since I am priced out of using Microsoft's tools, I'm certainly not going to recommend them to anybody I work with and/or consult to.
-
Christian Graus wrote:
but if you can't justify the price, perhaps you don't need the tools ( which you didn't have in the IDE before anyhow ).
That's what ticks me off with this whole thing. You describe the vibe that I'm getting from Microsoft. I know that I didn't have these tools before, and at the price they have set, I probably will continue to use the open source tools that I have been using. Plus, since I am priced out of using Microsoft's tools, I'm certainly not going to recommend them to anybody I work with and/or consult to.
tidge wrote:
Plus, since I am priced out of using Microsoft's tools, I'm certainly not going to recommend them to anybody I work with and/or consult to.
Why not ? I'm priced out of buying a European car, that doesn't mean I'd badmouth them to people who can afford them.
tidge wrote:
You describe the vibe that I'm getting from Microsoft.
A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Microsoft is not a business. What do you think it cost to build all these tools ? I get what you're saying, but I don't see the Microsoft position as unreasonable. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
tidge wrote:
Plus, since I am priced out of using Microsoft's tools, I'm certainly not going to recommend them to anybody I work with and/or consult to.
Why not ? I'm priced out of buying a European car, that doesn't mean I'd badmouth them to people who can afford them.
tidge wrote:
You describe the vibe that I'm getting from Microsoft.
A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Microsoft is not a business. What do you think it cost to build all these tools ? I get what you're saying, but I don't see the Microsoft position as unreasonable. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
tidge wrote: Plus, since I am priced out of using Microsoft's tools, I'm certainly not going to recommend them to anybody I work with and/or consult to. Why not ? I'm priced out of buying a European car, that doesn't mean I'd badmouth them to people who can afford them.
To be fair, he didnt say he was going to bad mouth them ... just that he wasnt going to recommend them. After all, how can he honesty recommend something he has no experience with. You may recommend one European car over another, but if you've never owned either than what value is your opinion ? "We need less government, not more. The idea that we can become a better society by having a bigger rule book is ridiculous, regardless of who is trying to change the rules" - Doug Goulden
-
Christian Graus wrote:
tidge wrote: Plus, since I am priced out of using Microsoft's tools, I'm certainly not going to recommend them to anybody I work with and/or consult to. Why not ? I'm priced out of buying a European car, that doesn't mean I'd badmouth them to people who can afford them.
To be fair, he didnt say he was going to bad mouth them ... just that he wasnt going to recommend them. After all, how can he honesty recommend something he has no experience with. You may recommend one European car over another, but if you've never owned either than what value is your opinion ? "We need less government, not more. The idea that we can become a better society by having a bigger rule book is ridiculous, regardless of who is trying to change the rules" - Doug Goulden
David Patrick wrote:
but if you've never owned either than what value is your opinion ?
Yeah, that's reasonable. But having said that, there is a trial available. If I was in a position to provide an opinion that was supposed to matter, I'd at least run a trial of the products involved so my opinion meant something. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
tidge wrote:
Plus, since I am priced out of using Microsoft's tools, I'm certainly not going to recommend them to anybody I work with and/or consult to.
Why not ? I'm priced out of buying a European car, that doesn't mean I'd badmouth them to people who can afford them.
tidge wrote:
You describe the vibe that I'm getting from Microsoft.
A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Microsoft is not a business. What do you think it cost to build all these tools ? I get what you're saying, but I don't see the Microsoft position as unreasonable. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Woah, woah, steady there Christian. Tidge only said that he wasn't going to recommend the tools... and that doesn't equate to badmouthing them. I think you were a bit quick to put word's into his mouth. Jon