Microsoft Certification

[Jorgen Sigvardsson]

Ravi Bhavnani wrote:

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You're a good friend! :-D
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[Ravi Bhavnani]

But not half as good as the owner of the baby. :) /ravi My new year's resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Music | Articles | Freeware | Trips ravib(at)ravib(dot)com

[Colin Angus Mackay]

Isaac Sasson wrote:

Is a Microsoft Cetificate (say MCAD/MCSD) worth anything these days?

I used to think so. However, since someone at my work was bragging that he got some sort of cheetsheet with all the answers to the exam(s) he sat recently I'm fairly pissed off because I worked hard to get my certification (I even had to re-sit a couple because they were in areas I didn't really have any prior experience in).

Isaac Sasson wrote:

Are books enough to take the a exams or do I need a course?

I took a course and I found it excellent. The problem areas for me was the web services exam had a lot of COM stuff in it and I skipped that whole area going from MFC (sans COM) to .NET. So the course skipped over some of the detail I was never exposed to as it assumed that everyone had at least done COM programming previously. I also had to resit the Solution Architecture exam, because, to me, it seems that you have to think "How would the Microsoft Marketing department answer this question?" and I didn't pick that up the first time round.

Isaac Sasson wrote:

I was also wondering how many of you in the business have university degrees

I have a degree. I think most of the people I work with have degrees also. I know some do not have a computing/software related degree as their first degree though. I know that some people do manage to become software developers without degrees, but many companies look for this when hiring. I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter in the long run - however it might be problematic getting into the job market in the first place.

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My: Blog | Photos "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucious

[code frog 0]

You know you have a good point. I've done both. I've had formal education and I've taught myself. When I think back on it database theory, compilers and data-structures were a few courses where I would have paid a lot of money to be spoon fed. Going through those courses was a real challenging thing at times and when you are required to write a compiler I really don't think you can be spoon-fed. However, I've worked with guys that had their Masters in C.S. and were woefully inept at actually writing code. They seemed to be adequate as long as the topics stayed within what they had learned in school but when it went into real systems programming in Win32 they fell apart. So there are definitely really bright people out there and there are a lot of them. Education or lack thereof actually has very little to do with a persons aptitude and their ability to program. The critical skills needed are not something you learn from books or on your own. You either have it or you don't then it's just a matter of course-work or grunt-work. Either way it's a lot of work. - Rex

Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.

[rwestgraham]

I have an engineering degree - chemical - which is totally unrelated to most programming, but it did help me get my first software dev job. As far as certifications go, (as long as you live in or near a decent size metro area where there are programming interest groups) here is the way to get the most bang for your buck: 1) Pick an area you feel like is your strongest place to start. Buy a good cert book in that area with lots of code samples (I like Que books, Microsoft books generally suck). 2) Spend a few weeks on your own working with the book to get at least somewhat up to speed on the material. 3) Find and join a local study group for the same cert - usually not hard in any decent metro area - people organize informal study groups via the web, at Barnes and Nobles etc. 4) Hopefully someone in the study group will have a job - and hopefully since you have "pre-pared" before joining the group you will seem pretty on the ball. You never know - I have gotten one job offer from a cert study group. Worse case scenario, you'll engage in some networking that turns out to be totally useless. Hopefully you'll pass the exam though :-) In any case, if you are going to study for a cert exam, makes some contacts in the process - it may not help, it certainly cannot hurt. Good luck!

[peterchen]

Hint: everybody else from your country goes traveling to south america or asia. So if you miss your army buddies, you know where to look :) (0) Small Companies give a damn about education or certification, if you show technical skills. (1) A certificate can help you kick out the competition. Some companies do have "minimum standards" with respect to formal education, but never heard of someone who was told "we'd love to hire you but you have no MCSD" (2) You need the original study material (teachers kit if you can get your hands on). Courses are... helpful but shouldn't be necassary Ca. 5 (or 6?) years ago I got a course sponsored by not-so-straightforward means. It might be because of the situation, but the course itself was not worth it (Only 3 of the ca. 20 people fianlly took exams). But the company where I did the course would have hired me despite lack of formal education :cool: [edit] So forget the course and try to get hired. This gives a better feel what companies expect, Depending on the company, the MCSD might nudge your salary a bit, but you can also do this while you are employed.[/edit]

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[Rocky Moore]

Certification probably depends on the type of job and the company. Smaller companies usually only look at your ability, but the certification can show that you at least have some form of overall exposure that some self-taught developers may lack. In most places, I feel experience or some work you can point them too will speak louder than certification and in some instances, degrees. You are in the process of freeing up your life from a long term commitment, you might want to skip the extr effort and jump in the frying pan with a company and get some formal experience under your belt. It may mean a faster ride to the gravy train that spending all the extra time tring to obtain certification or degrees. As for myself, I am self-taught old school (that is starting out on computer before many that visit CP was even born ;) ) developer with the eight grade being extent of my formal education and no certification of any form, yet have always been hired on the first interview by skill and expressed knowledge. You might try an entry level position somewhere to get a little experience under you belt. This is not so much for programming skill or knowledge, but rather to show future employers your work ethics and how you handles yourself as a developer. Anyone that has the basic understanding of how to develop software through the cycle of development has the ability to learn or adapt to about any skill set, it is your work ethic (how much you put yourself into your work) and your logic skills that are important. After little while, you should be able to land a better job that has more realistic salary, but it really depends on where you plan to live and th size of your town. I know if you are in the Pacific Northwest, jobs are hot for anything .NET and senior developers are at times breaching the six digits salaries again. One thing I would suggest, is to bury yourself in beta technologes that will be here in a year or two (such as Longhorn Windows Vista and the technologies involved) making yourself highly in demand within a 12-24 month time . This can allow you to step into positions of senior level without putting in all the years to reach that point. When new technologies start hitting the ground, some companies jump in them, if nothing more than research on how those technologies will apply to thier businesses. If you already have that knowledge, you will command a serious consulting fee until the rest of the developers catch up. Anyway, that is what I have picked up after over

[Kevin McFarlane]

Isaac Sasson wrote:

Is a Microsoft Cetificate (say MCAD/MCSD) worth anything these days?

Usually only if you already have commercial experience in .NET. Then it may be an added bonus. It may also be beneficial when it's an employers' market. But most jobs don't specify it as a requirement.

Isaac Sasson wrote:

Are books enough to take the a exams or do I need a course?

People have done it just by studying books.

Isaac Sasson wrote:

I was also wondering how many of you in the business have university degrees (computer science, engineering etc.)

I have two degrees in civil engineering and worked in the oil and gas industry for a number of years before getting into programming. It was pretty hard to change careers. In general it's easier to get into IT as a new graduate than it is from another career. In my case, I did a correspondence course in C and was able to get a tech support job at a company that sold scientific and engineering software. So my engineering background came in useful. In that tech support job I was able to do a bit of programming and that eventually enabled me to get a job as a straight programmer. Kevin

[Kevin McFarlane]

Andrew Bleakley wrote:

Personally I prefer a self taught programmer without a degree than a degree holder who expects to be spoon fed

There certainly are some excellent self-taught programmers out there. Kevin

[Kevin McFarlane]

Colin Angus Mackay wrote:

I know some do not have a computing/software related degree as their first degree though.

Like me. I don't even have one as my second degree. Kevin

[Kevin McFarlane]

rwestgraham wrote:

I have an engineering degree - chemical - which is totally unrelated to most programming

For me it was civil engineering. Kevin

[Gary R Wheeler]

Isaac Sasson wrote:

I was also wondering how many of you in the business have university degrees

I have a B.S. in computer engineering (Wright State University[^], class of '84). I've worked with (and for) people both with and without a degree. People with a degree tend to have a broader tool set from which to choose when solving a problem. Those without a degree seem to have the 'if all I've got is a hammer, then every problem is a nail' view. The academic background gives you some exposure to a variety of problem-solving methods. Conversely, people without a degree seem to be better at extending their existing knowledge and techniques to cover new situations. A lot of entry-level degree'd kids seem to get lost when the situation doesn't duplicate closely what they're used to. This may simply be inexperience, but the folks without degrees seem to be more willing/able to persevere and 'bull' their way through problems. They also seem to have more 'depth', in that they've acquired a lot more of the nuances. Another difference, possibly the most important one, is motivation. Frankly, a lot of computer science graduates seem to have fallen into the field more because some high school aptitude test said they would be good at it, rather than any desire to work in software. Too many of them just don't seem to care about how and why they do their job. The folks without degrees are here because they want to be. If they didn't love developing software, they would be doing something else.

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[jcrussell]

Colin Angus Mackay wrote:

however it might be problematic getting into the job market in the first place

exactly. I think that if I hadn't had my degree, and with no prior commercial experience, there is no way I could have even come close to getting my foot in the door. Even with the degree I have I found it difficult to get a job that pays enough to work off my university debt :sigh: /jason