Scientology and other things
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jan larsen wrote: It was a clash between a Theologist and one of the front persons in the Danish Scientology fraction. The Theologist read aloud some of the more funny parts of the "secret papers" that is kept private in the inner circles of Scientology (the small crowd of people who is controlling the minds and money of the outer circles), which claim that humans are some sort of lost souls from another planet (i think that Mars is the actual planet, but i do not recall). The guy from Scientology went all red in the face and claimed that the paper was NOT coming from Scientology, but at the same time he accused the Theologist's source of stealing from Scientology I had a pretty interesting discussion about this kind of thing with a smart guy the other day. Basically he took the example of Budhist monks. They sit all day, all life, chanting
omin 50 varients and most people look upon them as being highly spiritual. However Buddhas teachings and his "goal" for Buddhism has nothing to do with chanting om in 50 varients. In fact what the monks do is a polar affect of what Buddha wanted. He wanted them to take what he taught and to better their lives, simple as that. He did not want them wasting their lives chanting om, in 50 varients. This result of these monks is what is called a religious affect. The monks have become an affect of their chosen religion/belief/etc., instead of being an affect on their universe, as Buddha teaches. When that happens to the people you think are representative of a religion or belief you should realise that they are not what the religion or belief is about. The same with Islamic fundamentalists who kill in the name of Allah. Their religion does not actually preach it, yet they have twisted their belief in their minds so much that they believe what they are doing is what their religion teaches. It is pretty sad. Anyway, my point is that all these inner and outer circles in Scientology are not what Scientology is about. These people who "who is controlling the minds and money of the outer circles" have seen how they can use Scientology to their own benefit. They present themselves as representatives of Scientology, but ultimately they are not. Unfortunatley us humans are gullible and like to take the way "out", not through. So we fall into these traps quite easily. This is where the taking responsibility for your universe is key. You are responsible for not falling into the trap. You are responsible fYou are a fool Paul Watson. ;) As every sane and elightened individual on Earth knows, all goods things that happen to me and those around me happened because of me, all bads things must of been caused by something or someone else. ;P Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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first i really loath sf.. and so there is no other possibility for me to loath a religion which is based on sf.. (i loath all sf - like - religion - like thingies like the star wars cult and everything like that..) my personal problem i do have got with scientology is that they try to get people in trouble (x - drug addicts, kids with learning problems) by helping them, not saying that them that they are from scientology, and when the people "wake up" they are in the claws of them and have to pay much money to them.. i am not really religious, but all the catholic church wants from me are about 100$ per year and that's it.. not strings anything attached.. have a nice one bernhard
Sometimes I think the surest sign for intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is that none of them ever tried to contact us.
Bernhard wrote: my personal problem i do have got with scientology is that they try to get people in trouble (x - drug addicts, kids with learning problems) by helping them, not saying that them that they are from scientology, and when the people "wake up" they are in the claws of them and have to pay much money to them.. Ugh that just sucks. I see this as a huge problem for any religion or belief. You get these sharks who prey on the gullible or weak by using the religions message, then they nail you. Meanwhile the religion is toddling along doing nothing wrong, yet we all think it itself is the bad thing, not the manipulative bastards who corrupt the face of the religion. One interesting point is that Scientology does not help those most in need. In fact it says that the able should help the able. Make the able more able. I think, because I am still new at all this, that L Ron Hubbard firmly believed that we should not be "wasting" our resources on the poor, the disabled, the addicted but rather we should be uplifting the uplifted even more. The idea was that by uplifting the uplifted you uplifted the general "environment" and this helps the downtrodden by making them more able indirectly. Having lived in Africa and seen billions being pumped into the hands of the poor I have to agree that helping the able is a better way to help the poor. i.e. Don't give the poor Africans the money, give it to those who are able to use the money to create more and use it wisely. The poor just go directly and buy food, the money does not build on it's own foundations, it just gets used. Bernhard wrote: first i really loath sf I will pray for you ;) I love sci-fi. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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jan larsen wrote: but you asked about Scientology which is the Church, and not about Dianetics which is the methods :-O Yeah you are right, sorry, my mistake. I always assume when I talk about things that people will see I am not asking about the organisation around it, or preconcieved notions, or the hype or suppresive thoughts. I normally always mean the actual kernel of the subject. Bad assumption :) jan larsen wrote: But my beliefs are very much anchored to the words of science, and when it comes to "Dianetics" and Scientology, then i just can't get myself to take a Sci-Fi writers non-scientific rantings for anything else than mumbo jumbo. Well that is quite interesting. L Ron Hubbard was a respected nuclear scientist. He knew his quantum physics etc. and in recent years with Hawking's and others work a lot of scientists are realising that quantum physics and religion are coming to a crossing point. A lot of what Scientology is about is the multiverse, multiple histories, imaginary time etc. Basically, what quantum physics is describing our universe as being is scarily close to Scientology and more importantly Buddhism. I don't pretend to understand quantum physics but that really is a viewpoint a lot of scientists who do know their stuff are having. I always thought science and religion was dyamertrically opposed, but I am seeing that they aren't. jan larsen wrote: (that is, if somebody pointed a gun to my head and yelled: "CHOOSE or die!"), If that happened I would quickly choose a religion which ensured the guy pulling the trigger got fried by a bolt of lighting from the heaves in retribution for killing a "believer", or preferably one which fried him before he killed me ;P jan larsen wrote: then i would probably choose Zen, it is SO obscure, mind boggling, and vague that you just HAVE to love it. All I know about Zen is that my garden definitley is not Zen and that if I had a motorbike I would make sure I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Repair & Maintenance. So what is Zen? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: All I know about Zen is that my garden definitley is not Zen and that if I had a motorbike I would make sure I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Repair & Maintenance. Funnily enough, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance doesn't really contain much about motorcycle maintenance. Doesn't have much about Zen in it either... Kevin
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Michael P Butler wrote: My own problems with Scientology come from some of those dubious legal practises that I've read about This is a problem I have with a lot of intelligent people, myself included. We hear about some or other quite amazing thing and think "sounds cool, lets investigate." We then run into the mob surrounding the thing. Often this puts us off straight away and we link that because the mob is interested and into it, that whatever it is, is bollocks. We smarties have a big problem with organised anything, tell me I am wrong. We don't like being told what to do, or being force fed a religion. We like to be in control, have our way and not be brainwashed. I totally agree and that is a good thing, a good thing that we are not sheep. However it seems to sometimes blind us to good things. Another thing is that as with anything successful there are sharks circling it, biting off bits of it and using those bits to their own end. It seems as though Scientology has been a big victim of that. While Scientology itself is not bad, the people who say they are lead Scientologists (an oxymoron really as Scientology is a one person, one universe type of thing) use it's success to get what they want. Unfortunatley the mob often just glosses over that, clamouring to pay more money to the sharks, while us smarties see the sharks and label both the sharks and the religion as bad. It kind of reminds me of Linux. I see all these idiots surrounding it, using it, manipulating it and it makes it harder for Linux to win me over. I know Linux is not really about beating MS, I know that the daft script kiddies and Linuz zealots do not represent what Linux is about, but I also know that if I get involved with Linux other smarties will look down on me with disdain for "having fallen into such a stupid trap." Michael P Butler wrote: I'm probably more of a Bill and Ted kind of person, "Be excellent to each other". Respect nature and respect each other, as we are all made from the same basic building blocks. Dude, party on man, party on that way :-D You are not that far from Scientology with that thinking. Just FYI to all those thinking "oh god, Paul is deep in the Scientology trap". I am not, I am looking into it and finding it very insteresting. I have not paid one cent to one shark for anything Scientology related regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape T
Paul Watson wrote: You are not that far from Scientology with that thinking. The difference is that I have come to these beliefs by my own experience and thinking. I don't need no organised religion to say I am a Scientologist, I am a Christian, I am a Jedi or I am a Muslim. I am Michael and that is all that matters to me. All religions contain the same basic concepts in the 'Be excellent to each other' message. It is just that these 'religions' have been subverted throughout history by people for there own ends. The Dianetics concept at the heart of scientology is interesting, it's just the rest of the crap that comes within the organised religion that bothers me. I'm lucky, I can think for myself but not all people are that lucky. Paul Watson wrote: Just FYI to all those thinking "oh god, Paul is deep in the Scientology trap". I am not, I am looking into it and finding it very insteresting. I have not paid one cent to one shark for anything Scientology related It's okay, you survived the VB trap - you should be able to beat the Scientology brain-washing. Even if you don't, I'm sure plenty of people will volunteer to beat it out of you :-) Michael :-)
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jan larsen wrote: but you asked about Scientology which is the Church, and not about Dianetics which is the methods :-O Yeah you are right, sorry, my mistake. I always assume when I talk about things that people will see I am not asking about the organisation around it, or preconcieved notions, or the hype or suppresive thoughts. I normally always mean the actual kernel of the subject. Bad assumption :) jan larsen wrote: But my beliefs are very much anchored to the words of science, and when it comes to "Dianetics" and Scientology, then i just can't get myself to take a Sci-Fi writers non-scientific rantings for anything else than mumbo jumbo. Well that is quite interesting. L Ron Hubbard was a respected nuclear scientist. He knew his quantum physics etc. and in recent years with Hawking's and others work a lot of scientists are realising that quantum physics and religion are coming to a crossing point. A lot of what Scientology is about is the multiverse, multiple histories, imaginary time etc. Basically, what quantum physics is describing our universe as being is scarily close to Scientology and more importantly Buddhism. I don't pretend to understand quantum physics but that really is a viewpoint a lot of scientists who do know their stuff are having. I always thought science and religion was dyamertrically opposed, but I am seeing that they aren't. jan larsen wrote: (that is, if somebody pointed a gun to my head and yelled: "CHOOSE or die!"), If that happened I would quickly choose a religion which ensured the guy pulling the trigger got fried by a bolt of lighting from the heaves in retribution for killing a "believer", or preferably one which fried him before he killed me ;P jan larsen wrote: then i would probably choose Zen, it is SO obscure, mind boggling, and vague that you just HAVE to love it. All I know about Zen is that my garden definitley is not Zen and that if I had a motorbike I would make sure I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Repair & Maintenance. So what is Zen? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: So what is Zen? The main computer on the Liberator in Blakes 7 :-) Michael :-)
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Scientology is a cult. :| A can't say it more clearly or conscisely than this: "I speak religion's message clear -- and I control you" 'Mr. Self-Destruct' by Nine Inch Nails I have a copy of 'The Prophet' by Kahlil Gibran; I think it's brilliant, but I don't think it has anything to do with scientology or organized religion in general. And as for MS striving to be like Apple -- did Apple not have a GUI before MS? (and they got it from PARC or someone else..) Viewing Apple, MS, Linux, et al as an US vs THEM scenario is uninformed and immature. It is not a black and white, right vs wrong battle. They all have good and bad points. "Why kill time, when you can kill yourself?" - Cabaret Voltaire
Daniel Ferguson wrote: A can't say it more clearly or conscisely than this: "I speak religion's message clear -- and I control you" 'Mr. Self-Destruct' by Nine Inch Nails Now there is someone we all should really be listening to. Mr. Self-destruct... X| Daniel Ferguson wrote: I have a copy of 'The Prophet' by Kahlil Gibran; I think it's brilliant, but I don't think it has anything to do with scientology or organized religion in general. I never said they were related, I am just curious as I have been recommended the book by the same guy who thinks Scientology has a lot of good stuff in it. Daniel Ferguson wrote: And as for MS striving to be like Apple -- did Apple not have a GUI before MS? (and they got it from PARC or someone else..) Viewing Apple, MS, Linux, et al as an US vs THEM scenario is uninformed and immature. It is not a black and white, right vs wrong battle. They all have good and bad points. I am sure I said "on a lighter note" when I posted that about MS and Apple. Don't take it so seriously, I just thought it was a hilarious statement from an MS employee. MS employees are reknowned for, like Sun employees, not saying anything good about "the other camp." I am sure Bill will have a private chat with that vice president. :-D Daniel Ferguson wrote: "Why kill time, when you can kill yourself?" - Cabaret Voltaire Thats funny. Scientology has quite a bit about supressive personalities who end up killing themselves and how they take things down around with them. Your signature is pretty much spot on with what it says about the matter. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Just curious but who here is into, knows anything about, or has an opinion on Scientology? To spark some memories Scientology was L Ron Hubbards creation and . Alternatively, has anyone read either of the following two books, if so, what did you think about them? The Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch and The PROPHET by Kahlil Gibran. On a lighter note I just read an article in the latest Time (the one with Bono on the cover saving the world, go Bono!) on page 38 about how MS and Intel are getting very much into mobile phones. The bit that had me in tears of mirth was "We want to help people create the iMac of cell phones" said by none other than the vice president of Microsoft's mobility group. :laugh: . MS striving to be like Apple... :laugh: ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
L. Ron Hubbard quote: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion" Scientology is second only to christianity/islam in the mind-control department. Stay as far away from these people as possible. It was started deliberately to make money by L. Ron Hubbard after he came up with the idea in a science fiction story. The 'secrets' of this 'religion', which you only find out years after you have poured your life savings into the organisation, are that the Earth is haunted by the lost souls of the 'Xemu' people who were excess to the requirements of some alien empire and were all executed by being drugged and left to burn at the foot of one of Earths active volcanoes. The problems of mankind are, supposedly, the result of us being haunted by these lost souls and the process of 'dyanetics' is the exorcism of them from us (Getting 'Clear'). There are many different levels of being clear - they seem to add on to them once too many people reach the last level. Shortly before L. Ron died, his wife (and several others) were arrested in connection with a plot to steal documents and other things from the federal government in order to inhibit the ongoing IRS investigation into Scientology. Criminal convictions were obtained for L. Ron's wife and others, but L. Ron himself escaped the net of "justice." Eventually, Scientology and the government entered into a settlement which provided that Scientology could keep its status as a church (and the associated tax exemption privilege), pay the government a bunch of money, and the government would back off until at least January 1, 2000. Well, its 2 years past the deadline now, and if there is any good to come out of the incoming religious reich, it is that they will have absolutely no reason to keep their hands off of Scientology. There is no good reason why the USA can't do what the Germans and French have done: outlaw this cult! Oh, proof. Right. *digs through the 'cults and religion' folder of favorites* http://www.xenu.net/ http://www.sky.net/~sloth/sci/Harlan.Ellison http://home.kvalito.no/~xenu/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm http://www.scientology-lies.com/ // Rock
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Paul Watson wrote: You are not that far from Scientology with that thinking. The difference is that I have come to these beliefs by my own experience and thinking. I don't need no organised religion to say I am a Scientologist, I am a Christian, I am a Jedi or I am a Muslim. I am Michael and that is all that matters to me. All religions contain the same basic concepts in the 'Be excellent to each other' message. It is just that these 'religions' have been subverted throughout history by people for there own ends. The Dianetics concept at the heart of scientology is interesting, it's just the rest of the crap that comes within the organised religion that bothers me. I'm lucky, I can think for myself but not all people are that lucky. Paul Watson wrote: Just FYI to all those thinking "oh god, Paul is deep in the Scientology trap". I am not, I am looking into it and finding it very insteresting. I have not paid one cent to one shark for anything Scientology related It's okay, you survived the VB trap - you should be able to beat the Scientology brain-washing. Even if you don't, I'm sure plenty of people will volunteer to beat it out of you :-) Michael :-)
Michael P Butler wrote: The Dianetics concept at the heart of scientology is interesting, it's just the rest of the crap that comes within the organised religion that bothers me. Hear! Hear! That is exactly my reaction to organised religion. All the mob mentality, pontification, organisations, non-profit, do-this-do-that, harass-the-living-hell-out-of-anyone-who-misses-one-meeting, I-will-pray-for-your-soul-Paul-Watson cooky-baking-child-making-nose-in-my-business-sticking-goody-two-shoes piss me off. All of that makes me hate the thing that they say they represent. Michael P Butler wrote: The difference is that I have come to these beliefs by my own experience and thinking. I don't need no organised religion to say I am a Scientologist, I am a Christian, I am a Jedi or I am a Muslim. I am Michael Well that is the good thing from my perspective too. I have thought a lot of these things long before someone told me there was a religion on it. So when you do find something, the methodology and core beliefs of Scientology, that fits quite well with what you believe it does something to you. Even you cannot admit surely that the "hey, we think and believe alike" event has no affect on you. Michael P Butler wrote: It is just that these 'religions' have been subverted throughout history by people for there own ends. Well, this is why I am asking you smart and often wise people here on CP about Scientology. I don't want to know that some daft bugger used Scientology to scam some people, I couldn't care less. I know I don't have to pay anyone or wear a white robe to be a better person. I know I don't have to attend church or be seen doing things. What I wan't to know is: The core beliefs and the methodology of Scientology, is it valid, is it real, what do you think about it, is it a good way or has it some blinding flaw which makes it unreal. What can a young person such as my self learn from it so that I can carry on stearing my own course but without having to reinvent the wheel on every thought. I don't want to be re-programmed or shove an e-meter up my arse. I want to know about the universe and my part in it. If someone says "oh, in reality you are a rock" I will just laugh and carry on with my own thinking and life. As you say, think for yourself. But there have been some smart people before us whose thoughts we can use to better our thoughts. Otherwise I and you have to start at rock botto
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jan larsen wrote: but you asked about Scientology which is the Church, and not about Dianetics which is the methods :-O Yeah you are right, sorry, my mistake. I always assume when I talk about things that people will see I am not asking about the organisation around it, or preconcieved notions, or the hype or suppresive thoughts. I normally always mean the actual kernel of the subject. Bad assumption :) jan larsen wrote: But my beliefs are very much anchored to the words of science, and when it comes to "Dianetics" and Scientology, then i just can't get myself to take a Sci-Fi writers non-scientific rantings for anything else than mumbo jumbo. Well that is quite interesting. L Ron Hubbard was a respected nuclear scientist. He knew his quantum physics etc. and in recent years with Hawking's and others work a lot of scientists are realising that quantum physics and religion are coming to a crossing point. A lot of what Scientology is about is the multiverse, multiple histories, imaginary time etc. Basically, what quantum physics is describing our universe as being is scarily close to Scientology and more importantly Buddhism. I don't pretend to understand quantum physics but that really is a viewpoint a lot of scientists who do know their stuff are having. I always thought science and religion was dyamertrically opposed, but I am seeing that they aren't. jan larsen wrote: (that is, if somebody pointed a gun to my head and yelled: "CHOOSE or die!"), If that happened I would quickly choose a religion which ensured the guy pulling the trigger got fried by a bolt of lighting from the heaves in retribution for killing a "believer", or preferably one which fried him before he killed me ;P jan larsen wrote: then i would probably choose Zen, it is SO obscure, mind boggling, and vague that you just HAVE to love it. All I know about Zen is that my garden definitley is not Zen and that if I had a motorbike I would make sure I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Repair & Maintenance. So what is Zen? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: So what is Zen? It is an interpretation of Bhuddism, and is one of the religions that some nuclear scientists are refering to when they talk about religion that applies to some results. While i know that it is a general belief that a lot of well known scientists are going for Zen, they are not THAT well known that i can name just one... Some say that Niels Bohr were into Zen because of the Yin/Yang sign he chose when he got his knighthood in Denmark, but i do not think he ever claimed such beliefs. The official reason he chose the sign was because of the symbolism to the duality of the photon particle/wave. The idea of science interwoved (spelling?) with Zen though, is very interesting, i think this book would be of interest to you: "Godel, Escher, Bach : An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas R. Hofstadter. In this book, Hofstadter compares the art of the Mathematician Kurt Godel, the painter Escher and J.S. Bach, not only to each other, but also to the workings of the human mind (Hofstadter is a brilliant AI scientist) and the Zen beliefs. I think Hawking is one of the scientists who believe that the similarities to some of the theories of particles and Zen is just a coinscidence. A more harsh rebuffing is to be found in the book "The Quark and the Jaguar" by Murray Gell-Mann, the scientist who named the Quark. I do not remember his exact wordings but i think it was short of calling such beliefs foolhardy nonsense, though he seems to be a bit conservative, i do recommend this book too. Jan "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!"
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Just curious but who here is into, knows anything about, or has an opinion on Scientology? To spark some memories Scientology was L Ron Hubbards creation and . Alternatively, has anyone read either of the following two books, if so, what did you think about them? The Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch and The PROPHET by Kahlil Gibran. On a lighter note I just read an article in the latest Time (the one with Bono on the cover saving the world, go Bono!) on page 38 about how MS and Intel are getting very much into mobile phones. The bit that had me in tears of mirth was "We want to help people create the iMac of cell phones" said by none other than the vice president of Microsoft's mobility group. :laugh: . MS striving to be like Apple... :laugh: ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Well, you know you'll always get me with a religious thread... I was walking down the streets of Melbourne in the late 80's with a girl ( no, really ), and we were stopped by a poerson who asked us our name, if we could have anything what would it be, if we could change anything what would it be ( me : world peace, her : natural blonde hair ). I was suspicious when they wrote her answers down back to front. They took us to a place where we filled in a questionaire with questions like 'if you saw an old granny lying hurt on the road, what would you do'. While they 'graded' our test we watched a video where a man always fights with his wife, and scientology gets him to hold two paddles connected to a machine while asking him to cast his mind back. He remembers moments of conflict going back in his life until one day as a toddler, he was eating an icecream, took a big lick and the ice cream bit the dust, causing his mother to smack him (!). Knowing this caused him to be all happy and run off to be a devoted and caring husband. Alarm bells ringing at this point. We got separated and individually shown the results of our tests. They were both the same. I think I've covered above how different our answers were likely to have been. Both of us were good people with serious issues in our lives, which only scientology could address. The only way for us to get help was to buy a poorly bound paperback, which was a bargain at $60, and they couldn't afford to sell it for less. They asked us to sign a contract stating that we were not psychiatrists, people who had been treated by psyciatrists ( we both had been, that's another story ), journalists or police. We also had to sign our commitment to the 'church of scientology' and our willingness to work ofr it, selling their grotty books, and furthermore to reimburse the church for training it gave us ( how to sell grotty books so L Ron Hubbard gets enough money to buy copies of his own books to make them bestsellers while you starve on the dole ) if we left, training is obviously a loose definition. We politely declined and they (not literally) threw us out on our ears. In fact when I told them I was a psyciatric patient ( I exaggerated not a little when I percieved an easy way out of the whole mess ), they seemed quite terrified of me. Funny enough it was the close physical proximity to that place that delayed by about a year my involvedment in the church I am still a part of 13 years later. They have nothing to do with scientology at ALL, but the hall wa
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Thanks for your opinion and the info. However a lot of what you say is based on the human side of manipulating a good thing to get money really, not on what Scientology or Dyanetics is actually about. It is like discrediting the coins that a mint creates because someone made a forgery. CLaW wrote: *digs through the 'cults and religion' folder of favorites* Just a quote I once heard: There is only one thing more ridiculous than a cult member. It is a fanatical cult-hater. I think it has something to do with people who become so caught up in debasing cults to others that their "cause" becomes a cult to themselves. Interesting stuff that :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
I have folders for all of humanities moronicies. Not just cults. :) If your intrested in the actual meat of the cult, and not what people twisted it into, then check out the raw texts, and dianetic therapy. // Rock
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L. Ron Hubbard quote: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion" Scientology is second only to christianity/islam in the mind-control department. Stay as far away from these people as possible. It was started deliberately to make money by L. Ron Hubbard after he came up with the idea in a science fiction story. The 'secrets' of this 'religion', which you only find out years after you have poured your life savings into the organisation, are that the Earth is haunted by the lost souls of the 'Xemu' people who were excess to the requirements of some alien empire and were all executed by being drugged and left to burn at the foot of one of Earths active volcanoes. The problems of mankind are, supposedly, the result of us being haunted by these lost souls and the process of 'dyanetics' is the exorcism of them from us (Getting 'Clear'). There are many different levels of being clear - they seem to add on to them once too many people reach the last level. Shortly before L. Ron died, his wife (and several others) were arrested in connection with a plot to steal documents and other things from the federal government in order to inhibit the ongoing IRS investigation into Scientology. Criminal convictions were obtained for L. Ron's wife and others, but L. Ron himself escaped the net of "justice." Eventually, Scientology and the government entered into a settlement which provided that Scientology could keep its status as a church (and the associated tax exemption privilege), pay the government a bunch of money, and the government would back off until at least January 1, 2000. Well, its 2 years past the deadline now, and if there is any good to come out of the incoming religious reich, it is that they will have absolutely no reason to keep their hands off of Scientology. There is no good reason why the USA can't do what the Germans and French have done: outlaw this cult! Oh, proof. Right. *digs through the 'cults and religion' folder of favorites* http://www.xenu.net/ http://www.sky.net/~sloth/sci/Harlan.Ellison http://home.kvalito.no/~xenu/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm http://www.scientology-lies.com/ // Rock
Thanks for your opinion and the info. However a lot of what you say is based on the human side of manipulating a good thing to get money really, not on what Scientology or Dyanetics is actually about. It is like discrediting the coins that a mint creates because someone made a forgery. CLaW wrote: *digs through the 'cults and religion' folder of favorites* Just a quote I once heard: There is only one thing more ridiculous than a cult member. It is a fanatical cult-hater. I think it has something to do with people who become so caught up in debasing cults to others that their "cause" becomes a cult to themselves. Interesting stuff that :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Bernhard wrote: my personal problem i do have got with scientology is that they try to get people in trouble (x - drug addicts, kids with learning problems) by helping them, not saying that them that they are from scientology, and when the people "wake up" they are in the claws of them and have to pay much money to them.. Ugh that just sucks. I see this as a huge problem for any religion or belief. You get these sharks who prey on the gullible or weak by using the religions message, then they nail you. Meanwhile the religion is toddling along doing nothing wrong, yet we all think it itself is the bad thing, not the manipulative bastards who corrupt the face of the religion. One interesting point is that Scientology does not help those most in need. In fact it says that the able should help the able. Make the able more able. I think, because I am still new at all this, that L Ron Hubbard firmly believed that we should not be "wasting" our resources on the poor, the disabled, the addicted but rather we should be uplifting the uplifted even more. The idea was that by uplifting the uplifted you uplifted the general "environment" and this helps the downtrodden by making them more able indirectly. Having lived in Africa and seen billions being pumped into the hands of the poor I have to agree that helping the able is a better way to help the poor. i.e. Don't give the poor Africans the money, give it to those who are able to use the money to create more and use it wisely. The poor just go directly and buy food, the money does not build on it's own foundations, it just gets used. Bernhard wrote: first i really loath sf I will pray for you ;) I love sci-fi. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
i think it is pretty strange if a religious leader (l.r. hubbard) says: "the surest way to make a lot of money is to found a religion".. think this says all / most bernhard (great that you are going to pray for me.. but i don't know if god or whatever you may call it will help me..)
Sometimes I think the surest sign for intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is that none of them ever tried to contact us.
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Scientology is that the study of Scients? At this risk of upsetting people - Scientology is like all religions, praying on the gullibility of people. Except with Scientology, you can pretty much see it is all bollocks, where as the rest are at least shrouded in the mist of history. Now I'd better watch out for those Scientology lawyers :-D Michael :-)
scientology gets it's name because it became a religion to avoid the exposure it got in the us when it was just bad science. Under freedom of religion laws they are now allowed to be wrong without fear of prosecution. \ Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little.
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Michael P Butler wrote: The Dianetics concept at the heart of scientology is interesting, it's just the rest of the crap that comes within the organised religion that bothers me. Hear! Hear! That is exactly my reaction to organised religion. All the mob mentality, pontification, organisations, non-profit, do-this-do-that, harass-the-living-hell-out-of-anyone-who-misses-one-meeting, I-will-pray-for-your-soul-Paul-Watson cooky-baking-child-making-nose-in-my-business-sticking-goody-two-shoes piss me off. All of that makes me hate the thing that they say they represent. Michael P Butler wrote: The difference is that I have come to these beliefs by my own experience and thinking. I don't need no organised religion to say I am a Scientologist, I am a Christian, I am a Jedi or I am a Muslim. I am Michael Well that is the good thing from my perspective too. I have thought a lot of these things long before someone told me there was a religion on it. So when you do find something, the methodology and core beliefs of Scientology, that fits quite well with what you believe it does something to you. Even you cannot admit surely that the "hey, we think and believe alike" event has no affect on you. Michael P Butler wrote: It is just that these 'religions' have been subverted throughout history by people for there own ends. Well, this is why I am asking you smart and often wise people here on CP about Scientology. I don't want to know that some daft bugger used Scientology to scam some people, I couldn't care less. I know I don't have to pay anyone or wear a white robe to be a better person. I know I don't have to attend church or be seen doing things. What I wan't to know is: The core beliefs and the methodology of Scientology, is it valid, is it real, what do you think about it, is it a good way or has it some blinding flaw which makes it unreal. What can a young person such as my self learn from it so that I can carry on stearing my own course but without having to reinvent the wheel on every thought. I don't want to be re-programmed or shove an e-meter up my arse. I want to know about the universe and my part in it. If someone says "oh, in reality you are a rock" I will just laugh and carry on with my own thinking and life. As you say, think for yourself. But there have been some smart people before us whose thoughts we can use to better our thoughts. Otherwise I and you have to start at rock botto
I think the lesson here is to learn all that is learnable - but if they ask your for your wallet or to sign anything then runaway very fast. :-D Michael :-)
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Thanks for your opinion and the info. However a lot of what you say is based on the human side of manipulating a good thing to get money really, not on what Scientology or Dyanetics is actually about. It is like discrediting the coins that a mint creates because someone made a forgery. CLaW wrote: *digs through the 'cults and religion' folder of favorites* Just a quote I once heard: There is only one thing more ridiculous than a cult member. It is a fanatical cult-hater. I think it has something to do with people who become so caught up in debasing cults to others that their "cause" becomes a cult to themselves. Interesting stuff that :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: Just a quote I once heard: There is only one thing more ridiculous than a cult member. It is a fanatical cult-hater. I was thinking the other day about people who have an overwhelming hate for things that don't affect their own lives. As an example, I once came across a web page by a right wing christian group that was violently opposed to masturbation -- linking it directly with an increase in crime and advocating a law to prevent it. I couldn't help but laugh. If you don't like it -- then don't do it. Another example is the hatred of homosexuals. I don't understand why I should even care what others do in privacy, as long it does not undermine general human decency. I think that in the extreme cases, it boils down to 'self-hatred by proxy'. Essentially, this involves hating and punishing others for something that one is ashamed of a subconscious interest in. "Why kill time, when you can kill yourself?" - Cabaret Voltaire
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I have folders for all of humanities moronicies. Not just cults. :) If your intrested in the actual meat of the cult, and not what people twisted it into, then check out the raw texts, and dianetic therapy. // Rock
CLaW wrote: If your intrested in the actual meat of the cult, and not what people twisted it into, then check out the raw texts, and dianetic therapy Thank you for the links :) I will go off now and start twisting them to my own world domination ends... ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Paul Watson wrote: Just a quote I once heard: There is only one thing more ridiculous than a cult member. It is a fanatical cult-hater. I was thinking the other day about people who have an overwhelming hate for things that don't affect their own lives. As an example, I once came across a web page by a right wing christian group that was violently opposed to masturbation -- linking it directly with an increase in crime and advocating a law to prevent it. I couldn't help but laugh. If you don't like it -- then don't do it. Another example is the hatred of homosexuals. I don't understand why I should even care what others do in privacy, as long it does not undermine general human decency. I think that in the extreme cases, it boils down to 'self-hatred by proxy'. Essentially, this involves hating and punishing others for something that one is ashamed of a subconscious interest in. "Why kill time, when you can kill yourself?" - Cabaret Voltaire
Daniel Ferguson wrote: I once came across a web page by a right wing christian group that was violently opposed to masturbation -- linking it directly with an increase in crime and advocating a law to prevent it. ROFL. That would be one interesting law - 99.9% of the worlds population would be guility. Michael :-)
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Paul Watson wrote: Just a quote I once heard: There is only one thing more ridiculous than a cult member. It is a fanatical cult-hater. I was thinking the other day about people who have an overwhelming hate for things that don't affect their own lives. As an example, I once came across a web page by a right wing christian group that was violently opposed to masturbation -- linking it directly with an increase in crime and advocating a law to prevent it. I couldn't help but laugh. If you don't like it -- then don't do it. Another example is the hatred of homosexuals. I don't understand why I should even care what others do in privacy, as long it does not undermine general human decency. I think that in the extreme cases, it boils down to 'self-hatred by proxy'. Essentially, this involves hating and punishing others for something that one is ashamed of a subconscious interest in. "Why kill time, when you can kill yourself?" - Cabaret Voltaire
Daniel Ferguson wrote: As an example, I once came across a web page by a right wing christian group that was violently opposed to masturbation -- linking it directly with an increase in crime and advocating a law to prevent it. I couldn't help but laugh. If you don't like it -- then don't do it. On the contrary I believe such people are so vocal precisely because, well, what do YOU think these people did when they were in the shower ? Such public self righteousness is often an expression of self guilt, in terms of desire if not action, in my opinion. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little.
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Daniel Ferguson wrote: A can't say it more clearly or conscisely than this: "I speak religion's message clear -- and I control you" 'Mr. Self-Destruct' by Nine Inch Nails Now there is someone we all should really be listening to. Mr. Self-destruct... X| Daniel Ferguson wrote: I have a copy of 'The Prophet' by Kahlil Gibran; I think it's brilliant, but I don't think it has anything to do with scientology or organized religion in general. I never said they were related, I am just curious as I have been recommended the book by the same guy who thinks Scientology has a lot of good stuff in it. Daniel Ferguson wrote: And as for MS striving to be like Apple -- did Apple not have a GUI before MS? (and they got it from PARC or someone else..) Viewing Apple, MS, Linux, et al as an US vs THEM scenario is uninformed and immature. It is not a black and white, right vs wrong battle. They all have good and bad points. I am sure I said "on a lighter note" when I posted that about MS and Apple. Don't take it so seriously, I just thought it was a hilarious statement from an MS employee. MS employees are reknowned for, like Sun employees, not saying anything good about "the other camp." I am sure Bill will have a private chat with that vice president. :-D Daniel Ferguson wrote: "Why kill time, when you can kill yourself?" - Cabaret Voltaire Thats funny. Scientology has quite a bit about supressive personalities who end up killing themselves and how they take things down around with them. Your signature is pretty much spot on with what it says about the matter. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: I am sure I said "on a lighter note" Yes, I agree, it certainly is a funny statement from a MS exec. :-D What I wrote wasn't directed at you personally, or anything you said; it was directed at Microsycophants (my term) and Linux Zealots. Paul Watson wrote: > "Why kill time, when you can kill yourself?" - Cabaret Voltaire Thats funny. Scientology has quite a bit about supressive personalities who end up killing themselves and how they take things down around with them. Your signature is pretty much spot on with what it says about the matter. I interpret my sig differently. A friend of mine works at a video rental store and I sometimes visit him to keep him company. Some of the people renting movies seem to be looking for something to kill time until tomorrow (some movies seem to have no other purpose). I just wonder what the point of life is when they are just killing time. X| BTW, this is a good thread, Paul; it certainly got me thinking. :) "Why kill time, when you can kill yourself?" - Cabaret Voltaire