Tab and lyrics sites in danger?
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Having read the article, I think his tone is a bit offensive. Jail time is just plain silly unless you use the printed out lyrics as tinder to commit criminal acts of arson. However, that being said, it doesn't matter what the scores or lyrics are being used for, they're still covered by copyright law. Consequently, posting them on a web site without the express consent of the author is, well, illegal. The fact that some people think everything on the Internet should be free does not strip creative people of their rights. It's no different than source code. If you want to share your work for free, that's your choice. However, if someone else gets a copy of your code and posts it on web sites without your permission, it's not unreasonable for you to request its removal, and you're not the bad guy if you do. The rules of conduct in a civilized society aren't that difficult to understand. If it doesn't belong to you, don't take it without asking. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
I don't think that a comparison can be made between source code and song lyrics/tabs. Having the tabs and lyrics wouldn't make you Bob Dylan nor Madonna. What will be next? Forbidding to play other peoples songs when your friends are present, because this will result in them not buying the album? Whispering a song on the street? Or quoting any part of a tune? All these would definitely deprive the songwriter of the ability to make a living. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm[^] The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics. I certainly hope that a) this isn't a repost and that b) I will not be sent packing to the soap box. I haven't posted much on CP lately but this just came as such a shock I had to complain somewhere. IMHO this is plain outrageous; sites like taborama.com[^] offer user posted tabs (not copied scorebooks) and lyrics, which as far as I know the authors have rights over. They have temporarily removed access to a large number of tabs while this is happening... I don't know what you people think of this but to me it seems like it's really a step further than is reasonable. These tabs are used mainly for home hobby purposes and I can't see the justification for banning personal peoples' interpretation of music. Am I totally off track here? Don't get me wrong here, I agree that for instance sharing copyrighted music in any form is wrong, but I consider this a completely different matter. Paul
What are tabs?
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
it doesn't matter what the scores or lyrics are being used for, they're still covered by copyright law. Consequently, posting them on a web site without the express consent of the author is, well, illegal.
Ah, but that's where this is totally different - the sites we're talking about allow users to post their own approximated tablatures, that they've created by listening to the tune. They're expressly *not* copied from songbooks or other people or the band etc. The users (read: authors) post the tabs themselves. Paul
Jim also made this argument, so I'll reply to both of you at the same time... In order to publish a score, the publishing company must obtain permission and typically enter into a business agreement with the author (or author's representative) to do so. Then, and only then, may they create and publish a score. The holder of the copyright owns the song in all representations. Someone else may recreate this song, regardless of format (lyrics, score, live performance, recording, etc.) only with express permission. Consequently, people who create and post tab (a score which merely uses a different notation convention), are creating illegal scores, i.e. they did not obtain this permission, and that's where they violate copyright law. I doubt that there is every any ill intent, and as a songwriter myself, I see this as a compliment. Nonetheless, in terms of rights, the folks creating the tab have none when it comes to use of the song. A publishing company who sells scores will protest this because either a) they have an exclusive agreement to reproduce the score or b) they feel the illegally posted tab competes with their legal commerce. Both positions are correct. However, any time a company asserts its legal rights in order to protect its revenue, they're quickly painted as a greedy bad guy. I can assure you that as an artist I've been screwed by many people in the music biz. Nonetheless, this doesn't remove anyone's legal rights to make money off of a deal freely entered into by all sides, or protect that income. Being a company trying to make money doesn't make you wrong. Being a non commercial, regular kinda guy doesn't make you right. Copyright law exists to protect the rights of the creative spirit, and it's neither wrong nor immoral to seek the protection of that law. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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What are tabs?
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What are tabs?
It is another type of representation of tracks besides the notes representation. It is a diagrammatic representation of the strings and frets of the instrument, which shows you how to play the sounds. This will give you a fair amount of information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_tab[^] regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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I don't think that a comparison can be made between source code and song lyrics/tabs. Having the tabs and lyrics wouldn't make you Bob Dylan nor Madonna. What will be next? Forbidding to play other peoples songs when your friends are present, because this will result in them not buying the album? Whispering a song on the street? Or quoting any part of a tune? All these would definitely deprive the songwriter of the ability to make a living. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
I respect the fact that you have strong feelings on the matter. Unfortulately, although I appreciate your idealism and support for the arts, your assertions aren't consistent with the reality of copyright law. Source code allows one to reproduce a computer program that someone else wrote. Lyrics and tab (or any other kind of musical score) allows one to reproduce a song that someone else wrote. In fact, in this regard they are identical. And technically, if you perform someone's songs without paying royalties to a performing rights society such as ASCAP or BMI, yeah, you're in violation of copyright law. Most people don't care about that so much if you're not making money, like playing a gig at a bar. In the latter case, the bar makes payments to ASCAP / BMI for a blanket liscense so that bands can come in and play cover tunes. Nonetheless, whether you're making money or not, the law applies. Here's the thing. It doesn't matter how much it affects someone's ability to make a living, and it doesn't matter if it makes you Bob Dylan or Madonna. It's the law, and the law was put in place to protect the rights of creative people. People just like you. Whether you're writing songs or programs (or anything else), when someone else's rights are allowed to deteriorate, it diiminishes yours as well. I wouldn't take your source code without asking, nor would I try to reverse engineer an app you wrote. Is it really asking so much that musicians receive the same respect? Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio) -- modified at 17:48 Tuesday 20th December, 2005
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
it doesn't matter what the scores or lyrics are being used for, they're still covered by copyright law. Consequently, posting them on a web site without the express consent of the author is, well, illegal.
Ah, but that's where this is totally different - the sites we're talking about allow users to post their own approximated tablatures, that they've created by listening to the tune. They're expressly *not* copied from songbooks or other people or the band etc. The users (read: authors) post the tabs themselves. Paul
Paul van der Walt wrote:
Ah, but that's where this is totally different - the sites we're talking about allow users to post their own approximated tablatures, that they've created by listening to the tune. They're expressly *not* copied from songbooks or other people or the band etc. The users (read: authors) post the tabs themselves.
so what you're saying is if I "copied" the Mona Lisa painting using my own paints and canvas and then uploaded a digital copy of it to the internet, that should be allowed?
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Jim also made this argument, so I'll reply to both of you at the same time... In order to publish a score, the publishing company must obtain permission and typically enter into a business agreement with the author (or author's representative) to do so. Then, and only then, may they create and publish a score. The holder of the copyright owns the song in all representations. Someone else may recreate this song, regardless of format (lyrics, score, live performance, recording, etc.) only with express permission. Consequently, people who create and post tab (a score which merely uses a different notation convention), are creating illegal scores, i.e. they did not obtain this permission, and that's where they violate copyright law. I doubt that there is every any ill intent, and as a songwriter myself, I see this as a compliment. Nonetheless, in terms of rights, the folks creating the tab have none when it comes to use of the song. A publishing company who sells scores will protest this because either a) they have an exclusive agreement to reproduce the score or b) they feel the illegally posted tab competes with their legal commerce. Both positions are correct. However, any time a company asserts its legal rights in order to protect its revenue, they're quickly painted as a greedy bad guy. I can assure you that as an artist I've been screwed by many people in the music biz. Nonetheless, this doesn't remove anyone's legal rights to make money off of a deal freely entered into by all sides, or protect that income. Being a company trying to make money doesn't make you wrong. Being a non commercial, regular kinda guy doesn't make you right. Copyright law exists to protect the rights of the creative spirit, and it's neither wrong nor immoral to seek the protection of that law. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
Damn well written. Five!
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Having read the article, I think his tone is a bit offensive. Jail time is just plain silly unless you use the printed out lyrics as tinder to commit criminal acts of arson. However, that being said, it doesn't matter what the scores or lyrics are being used for, they're still covered by copyright law. Consequently, posting them on a web site without the express consent of the author is, well, illegal. The fact that some people think everything on the Internet should be free does not strip creative people of their rights. It's no different than source code. If you want to share your work for free, that's your choice. However, if someone else gets a copy of your code and posts it on web sites without your permission, it's not unreasonable for you to request its removal, and you're not the bad guy if you do. The rules of conduct in a civilized society aren't that difficult to understand. If it doesn't belong to you, don't take it without asking. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
This is madness. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard a snatch of song lyric on the radio/TV and then used the Internet to locate - and then purchase - the music in question. This will do more harm than good IMHO. However, I have also noticed that one of the most popular tab sites (and perhaps the oldest) on the Net - OLGA - removed the lyrics a long time ago (at least 4 years back) because of the threat of legal action, so no similar site owner can say they didn't see this coming. I also have to wonder how this affects band fan sites that reproduce material knowing full well they have the support of the band. Some even have links to bootleg live gig MP3s with the bands full knowledge and approval. This could prove interesting when the record companies go for these sites. Also, as an amateur guitarist, I think that posting your interpretation of a songs chords is totally harmless - in fact, the vast amount of material available encourages people to learn to play in the first place IMHO. My neighbours son learnt to play the bass when he discovered online tabs - how on earth can this be a bad thing? Because he plays the bands songs in his bedroom he is infringing their rights perhaps? :) I am _not_ a brilliant guitarist (what I lack in talent I more than make up in enthusiasm) amd I cannot work out the chords to a song by ear alone. These tab sites are a real treasure. I have finished work for Christmas and have spent the last two days strapped to my Rickenbacker banging out Green Day, Radiohead and Oasis tunes - all thanks to other people working out the chords. Maybe I should pay these bands royalties? I mean, isn't what I am doing _technically_ illegal? Or do I need a paying audience first? If I were good enough to play in the local pub, would I have to cough up £1 per cover-version? Sheesh. And as for suggesting these site owners should be imprisoned, well, what ARE they smoking???
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm[^] The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics. I certainly hope that a) this isn't a repost and that b) I will not be sent packing to the soap box. I haven't posted much on CP lately but this just came as such a shock I had to complain somewhere. IMHO this is plain outrageous; sites like taborama.com[^] offer user posted tabs (not copied scorebooks) and lyrics, which as far as I know the authors have rights over. They have temporarily removed access to a large number of tabs while this is happening... I don't know what you people think of this but to me it seems like it's really a step further than is reasonable. These tabs are used mainly for home hobby purposes and I can't see the justification for banning personal peoples' interpretation of music. Am I totally off track here? Don't get me wrong here, I agree that for instance sharing copyrighted music in any form is wrong, but I consider this a completely different matter. Paul
I agree - this is a joke. I play guitar. If I work out a song, am I not allowed to play it if I didn't buy the book ? Am I not allowed to show someone else how to play it ? And lyrics - I am buying a CD today because my wife heard a song, caught a few words and I googled them. How is that a copyright problem ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Paul van der Walt wrote:
Ah, but that's where this is totally different - the sites we're talking about allow users to post their own approximated tablatures, that they've created by listening to the tune. They're expressly *not* copied from songbooks or other people or the band etc. The users (read: authors) post the tabs themselves.
so what you're saying is if I "copied" the Mona Lisa painting using my own paints and canvas and then uploaded a digital copy of it to the internet, that should be allowed?
Maybe I'm sounding silly here, but if it is clearly marked as your own version of the Mona Lisa (like a cover tune) such as all tabs are (they mention that it is the author's interpretation of the song and that it might not be accurate etc) I can't honestly see why not. Paul
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Thanks
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Maybe I'm sounding silly here, but if it is clearly marked as your own version of the Mona Lisa (like a cover tune) such as all tabs are (they mention that it is the author's interpretation of the song and that it might not be accurate etc) I can't honestly see why not. Paul
Paul van der Walt wrote:
I can't honestly see why not.
Because someone could download my picture and make a print if it rather than go to the art store and buy a print of it. Same is true of guitar-tabs and other onlie forms of printed music. Now, I do think it's silly of the MPA to attack the problem by suing people or jailing them (ya, right!). They should offer the ability to download the music for a buck. That way a lot more band could be covered. You will note that only the very most popular musicians are ever published in printed form.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm[^] The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics. I certainly hope that a) this isn't a repost and that b) I will not be sent packing to the soap box. I haven't posted much on CP lately but this just came as such a shock I had to complain somewhere. IMHO this is plain outrageous; sites like taborama.com[^] offer user posted tabs (not copied scorebooks) and lyrics, which as far as I know the authors have rights over. They have temporarily removed access to a large number of tabs while this is happening... I don't know what you people think of this but to me it seems like it's really a step further than is reasonable. These tabs are used mainly for home hobby purposes and I can't see the justification for banning personal peoples' interpretation of music. Am I totally off track here? Don't get me wrong here, I agree that for instance sharing copyrighted music in any form is wrong, but I consider this a completely different matter. Paul
I agree - this is a joke. I play guitar. If I work out a song, am I not allowed to play it if I didn't buy the book ? Am I not allowed to show someone else how to play it ? And lyrics - I am buying a CD today because my wife heard a song, caught a few words and I googled them. How is that a copyright problem ? I know of private FTP servers I can get all the music I like from. I don't use them, I buy my own CDs and don't give them away. But this is all that will happen to tabs, they will go underground, and be as easy to find as ever. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm[^] The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics. I certainly hope that a) this isn't a repost and that b) I will not be sent packing to the soap box. I haven't posted much on CP lately but this just came as such a shock I had to complain somewhere. IMHO this is plain outrageous; sites like taborama.com[^] offer user posted tabs (not copied scorebooks) and lyrics, which as far as I know the authors have rights over. They have temporarily removed access to a large number of tabs while this is happening... I don't know what you people think of this but to me it seems like it's really a step further than is reasonable. These tabs are used mainly for home hobby purposes and I can't see the justification for banning personal peoples' interpretation of music. Am I totally off track here? Don't get me wrong here, I agree that for instance sharing copyrighted music in any form is wrong, but I consider this a completely different matter. Paul
BTW, I use UltimateGuitar.com[^]. It's hosted in Russia, so no chance of it disappearing anytime soon. It allows users to rate tabs too, just like taborama.com (a killer feature when it comes to using these sites IMHO). And, FWIW, I also think this is outrageous. I know kids that have picked up a guitar for the first time just because, thanks to the Internet, they can learn to play their favourite songs. Unfortunately, the law of often an ass.
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
BTW, I use UltimateGuitar.com[^]. It's hosted in Russia, so no chance of it disappearing anytime soon. It allows users to rate tabs too, just like taborama.com (a killer feature when it comes to using these sites IMHO). And, FWIW, I also think this is outrageous. I know kids that have picked up a guitar for the first time just because, thanks to the Internet, they can learn to play their favourite songs. Unfortunately, the law of often an ass.
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecottRobert Edward Caldecott wrote:
Unfortunately, the law of often an ass.
Huh?
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This is madness. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard a snatch of song lyric on the radio/TV and then used the Internet to locate - and then purchase - the music in question. This will do more harm than good IMHO. However, I have also noticed that one of the most popular tab sites (and perhaps the oldest) on the Net - OLGA - removed the lyrics a long time ago (at least 4 years back) because of the threat of legal action, so no similar site owner can say they didn't see this coming. I also have to wonder how this affects band fan sites that reproduce material knowing full well they have the support of the band. Some even have links to bootleg live gig MP3s with the bands full knowledge and approval. This could prove interesting when the record companies go for these sites. Also, as an amateur guitarist, I think that posting your interpretation of a songs chords is totally harmless - in fact, the vast amount of material available encourages people to learn to play in the first place IMHO. My neighbours son learnt to play the bass when he discovered online tabs - how on earth can this be a bad thing? Because he plays the bands songs in his bedroom he is infringing their rights perhaps? :) I am _not_ a brilliant guitarist (what I lack in talent I more than make up in enthusiasm) amd I cannot work out the chords to a song by ear alone. These tab sites are a real treasure. I have finished work for Christmas and have spent the last two days strapped to my Rickenbacker banging out Green Day, Radiohead and Oasis tunes - all thanks to other people working out the chords. Maybe I should pay these bands royalties? I mean, isn't what I am doing _technically_ illegal? Or do I need a paying audience first? If I were good enough to play in the local pub, would I have to cough up £1 per cover-version? Sheesh. And as for suggesting these site owners should be imprisoned, well, what ARE they smoking???
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecottWell, I'll certainly have a pipe of whatever these guys are smoking. Everything I've said thus far has been in defense of the legal rights of creative creatures. However, the way some companies and organizations are handling this truly amazes me given that public relations is the backbone of the entertainment industry. Massive lawsuits of 13 year olds for downloading mp3s? Proposed jail time for sites posting lyrics? Sony incorporating copy protection in their CDs that creates problems for the PC of the person who legally paid for that CD? Do any of these people have a single soul in their marketing department who understands the word "consequences"? Without a doubt, this is a huge and extremely difficult problem. Folks, I'm a programmer, a musician and an author. That's three different places that I appreciate the protection of copyright law. My attitude towards casual software piracy (making a copy for your friend) of my work was always pretty lax - I figured that the small percentage who share software turn out to be great free advertising. Same with music. And then came the Internet. What used to be a few copies here and there now quickly becomes, literally, millions of copies. If I owned a publishing or record company, I'd be putting the bartender's kids through college right now. How on earth do you protect the property that you make a living selling when it can be copied in a heartbeat across the globe? It seems an impossible problem with no clear solution in sight. The success of iTunes gives hope as far as downloading songs, but it misses the real issue. People didn't download because they wanted the convenience. They downloaded because it was free. So, I absolutely agree with these companies that this is a critical issue to their financial future. I'm just not sure that bitch slapping the very people you're asking for money is the best way to go about it. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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I respect the fact that you have strong feelings on the matter. Unfortulately, although I appreciate your idealism and support for the arts, your assertions aren't consistent with the reality of copyright law. Source code allows one to reproduce a computer program that someone else wrote. Lyrics and tab (or any other kind of musical score) allows one to reproduce a song that someone else wrote. In fact, in this regard they are identical. And technically, if you perform someone's songs without paying royalties to a performing rights society such as ASCAP or BMI, yeah, you're in violation of copyright law. Most people don't care about that so much if you're not making money, like playing a gig at a bar. In the latter case, the bar makes payments to ASCAP / BMI for a blanket liscense so that bands can come in and play cover tunes. Nonetheless, whether you're making money or not, the law applies. Here's the thing. It doesn't matter how much it affects someone's ability to make a living, and it doesn't matter if it makes you Bob Dylan or Madonna. It's the law, and the law was put in place to protect the rights of creative people. People just like you. Whether you're writing songs or programs (or anything else), when someone else's rights are allowed to deteriorate, it diiminishes yours as well. I wouldn't take your source code without asking, nor would I try to reverse engineer an app you wrote. Is it really asking so much that musicians receive the same respect? Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio) -- modified at 17:48 Tuesday 20th December, 2005
I agree with you, when it comes to posting on the internet an auhtors songbook/tabsbook. But not when it comes to posting your own interpretation. The same with code. Right here on CP there are articles that say a skinnable MSN Messenger-like popup[^] or a toolbar like the Firefox optins dialog (can't rebebmer title nor link) and there are also others. Do you think that Microsoft and Mozilla should sue the authors for reproducing their work and posting the source code? Maybe the authors managed to write the axact same code as Microsoft did or maybe not. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Paul van der Walt wrote:
I can't honestly see why not.
Because someone could download my picture and make a print if it rather than go to the art store and buy a print of it. Same is true of guitar-tabs and other onlie forms of printed music. Now, I do think it's silly of the MPA to attack the problem by suing people or jailing them (ya, right!). They should offer the ability to download the music for a buck. That way a lot more band could be covered. You will note that only the very most popular musicians are ever published in printed form.
ahz wrote:
They should offer the ability to download the music for a buck. That way a lot more band could be covered. You will note that only the very most popular musicians are ever published in printed form.
Not a bad idea - I am sat here looking at a bookcase full with tab books I have purchased over the years. However, not all tabs are 100% accurate - sometimes I find lots of different versions of the same song online for example, and I need to play a few until I find one that sounds best when, for example, played on an acoustic. A "proper" guitarist friend of mine also says that some of the printed material I have is waaaay off the sound of the record. Case in point - Green Day and the superb American Idiot album. I purchased the songbook just last week, but the chords to Boulevard of Broken Dreams sound arse when played on an acoustic. Thanks to a tab site, I found a specific (and MUCH nicer sounding) acoustic version.
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:
Unfortunately, the law of often an ass.
Huh?
Sorry should of been "the law is an ass". http://www.bartleby.com/73/1002.html[^]
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott