Bad News........

Michael P Butler

Sorry to hear that. John Crocker wrote: So my question to you all.... Is how do we compete with these guys?? We have to drive the costs of software development down. Make software cheaper so that we can sell more of it to those who can't currently afford it. Seeing as we aren't likely to take a pay cut, the first thing we need to do is to reduce the time taken to build software. We need to start looking into new techniques and tools that help produce code faster and produce more robust code in the first release. As developers we need to add value to ourselves. Improve our communication skills, learn how and why businesses work. Understand our market and customers better. Offer the things that can't be as easily done by overseas workers. Michael CP Blog [^]

palbano

Michael P Butler wrote: the first thing we need to do is to reduce the time taken to build software. We need to start looking into new techniques and tools that help produce code faster and produce more robust code in the first release. That logic is perfect. However in reality the same executives in my company that would make the decision to outsource are the ones that make the decisions that prohibit me from doing exactly what you prescribed. Ever hear of Dilbert? Now, what can be done about that short of a firing squad?

"No matter where you go, there your are." - Buckaroo Banzai

-pete

Michael P Butler

palbano wrote: That logic is perfect. However in reality the same executives in my company that would make the decision to outsource are the ones that make the decisions that prohibit me from doing exactly what you prescribed. Not having had a boss in a few years, I forget how hard it can be. We have to start somewhere though. I think the first imperative is to add value to ourselves. Make the managers start taking us seriously. Learn business knowledge and how to best communicate our ideas. For me it is easy. I am my own boss. I have to go and get to know my customers otherwise I can't provide their solutions. I also can't afford massive timescales therefore I'm forced to look at new and different ways to speed up the process. Development is moving away from the raw code-face. When I started out I was a C programmer in DOS. I had to write my own GUI code, my own print routines, pretty much everything was written in-house. With .NET, most of that stuff has been written for us. All the concentration goes on the business logic. So now we need tools to make writing this easier and techniques that allow better interoperability between applications. Component reuse rather than code-reuse. I don't care who writes the components as long as I can plug them into my solution so my customer can pay me. Michael CP Blog [^]

Navin

Well, I've noticed - now this may not be universal, or true for your particular case - but it seems that most of the jobs going offshore are grunt coding jobs, maintenance work, support, etc. Most new work, design, planning, managment, etc. is staying here. So I suppose the way to compete is to keep your horizons broad. Learn those new technologies, keep yourself employable, so if your current company turns hostile, you have a better chance of finding gainful employment somewhere else. :) An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.

palbano

Michael P Butler wrote: I think the first imperative is to add value to ourselves. Make the managers start taking us seriously. Learn business knowledge and how to best communicate our ideas. I appreciate your intentions as well as the accuracy of your stated logic. Unfortunately none of it is founded in reality for large corporate environments. The problem is that, carrying that message up the ladder you eventually arrive at an individual executive that has 25 years in the company that is not tech based, because the company is not. Not only is that individual technically ignorant but their view of tech is as a "necessary evil". They therefore adopt an adversarial position to anyone pro-technology. Everything quickly spirals down the drain at that point since they have the position of power in the company. This is a problem that has no solution, it is a problem that only time will cure. Over time these dinosaurs will die off and be replaced by younger technology friendly individuals and the problem will effectively be erased. But, that's just my opinion... I could be wrong. :)

javaJones

Let's outsource baseball, if it's good for us then why not those guys? After attending the Rangers/Yankees game last night I was struck with the thought that with all that major league teams have to go through to keep the talent happy, Major League Baseball is ripe for a bit of outsourcing. Oh sure just checking all of the international flavored names on both teams makes it sound like the teams have already considered this. Watching Derek Jeeter hit what should have been a basehit, and then lollygag down the first base line only to be tagged out made those sitting around me contemplate whether he was waiting for his limo to come pick him up and drive him down. Have ball players reached their limit? For years I have preferred going to minor league games and college games because the kids have got heart. With out all that money getting in the way America's favorite passtime gets on with being a darn nice way to spend a few hours. If the rest of corporate America is any indication then Baseball should be following suit. That's right let's see Derek Jeeter get traded to the Indian Cricket League and get some hardworking ball players (about 1.2 million for what he's getting paid) in here to give us our game back.

Nish Nishant

Ramanan Sivan wrote: Just out of curiousity, Overseas where ? Probably India? Ramanan Sivan wrote: I have a feeling I'm not going to like the answer As an Indian working in the US, why would work being outsourced to India worry you? Nish

My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com

Michael P Butler

palbano wrote: Unfortunately none of it is founded in reality for large corporate environments. You may be right. I'm no longer interested in the corporate battleground. I prefer fights that I can win and that aren't stacked against me. I more interested in supplying software solutions to small and medium sized businesses. The kind of customers who prefer face to face contact. The people who need their hands holding and prefer the personal touch. The point I was making (badly), is that the corporate developer will have to adapt, because the cheaper resources aren't going away. A developer needs to be more flexible now than they have ever been. They have to offer the service that the consumer requires and that may no longer be working for a corporate. We have to look for new opportunties and for most of us, that will mean learning new things and changing the way we look at software development. Michael CP Blog [^]

Nish Nishant

Michael P Butler wrote: Seeing as we aren't likely to take a pay cut, the first thing we need to do is to reduce the time taken to build software. We need to start looking into new techniques and tools that help produce code faster and produce more robust code in the first release. Cool :-) As usual, a sensible unemotional reply from you :-) Nish

My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com

Rocky Moore

I pretty much agree. We are moving into a new component world for software development and basically will be aranging components to build our solutions. A simple picture is the free portals floating around out there like IBuySpy, that for many sites can be a simple key which about anyone in the company can throw the components together and make a site do mostly what they want. A few years down the road, I think the demand for developers will be far less and this includes senior positions and managment. Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - 2004 Election poll is #33 www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com "We plan for the future, we learn from the past, we live life in the present!"

caractacus

The offshore outsourcers will adopt the same tools and techniques. Here in South Africa we have a Proudly South African initialtive, with an easily recognizable logo, etc. to create awareness of keeping money from flowing out of the country. http://www.proudlysouthafrican.co.za/[^] I believe that a solidarity movement like this would be a first step. Or (I don't approve of this, but) a UNION of IT professionals who will punish companies that shed too many jobs over outsourcing. From our perspective here in South Africa, we have the skills, and we need the work. For various reasons many companies do not qualify for large contracts, due to demographic reasons (affirmative action in the strongest sense). So the US/UK market is, for some, the only growth market out there. For many years the USA has enjoyed its island universe of prosperity, and the rest of the world has been through a long walk to stability and an acceptable standard of living. We're still working on that every day. Maybe this is a sign that the hollywood days are fading fast, and membership in the world economy is being grasped (perhaps hastily) by cost-cutting executives, no matter what the long-term cost to the fabric of the US IT services industry. American businesses have made fortunes in the developing world. And now the world is asking for it back.

Rocky Moore

I do not agree. Most of the companies offshoring their work are looking to increase their pockets. They do not lower the price of their products, they just pull in more revenue to keep their investors happy. It is the Walmart mentality that you want the lowest possible price regardless. If they can find someone who will do the work for far less than you, they jump on it. They have no morals. The only real answer is to build your own products to sell and be done with the greed misters! Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - 2004 Election poll is #33 www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com "We plan for the future, we learn from the past, we live life in the present!"

Michael P Butler

Rocky Moore wrote: simple picture is the free portals floating around out there like IBuySpy, that for many sites can be a simple key which about anyone in the company can throw the components together and make a site do mostly what they want. If I judge based on some of my clients. The day that they can throw components together and produce a site is a long way off :-D Rocky Moore wrote: A few years down the road, I think the demand for developers will be far less and this includes senior positions and managment. I no longer consider myself a developer. I'm a software solution provider. I create software solutions to business problems or software to automate business processes. I'm frustrated that we haven't yet reached the level of component interoperabilty that I want to see. Michael CP Blog [^]

Michael P Butler

caractacus wrote: The offshore outsourcers will adopt the same tools and techniques. Of course they will. Competition is good. The winners will be the ones who adapt to the new situation and provide the better service. The consumer will choose where they get their software from. I'm gambling on that I can provide a better, personalised service than the competiton. Isn't that what our free-market economies are all about. As with all evolution. You either adapt our die. And as we improve our tools and techniques, then the more opportunities there will be for all of use to build software solutions. Michael CP Blog [^]

Rocky Moore

Michael P Butler wrote: I'm frustrated that we haven't yet reached the level of component interoperabilty that I want to see. Sad part is when that day arrives, you may not have work any longer as there will be millions of people who can do the very same thing. They easier solutions become to provide, the more people will jump on the gravy train and the faster the train will derail! Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - 2004 Election poll is #33 www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com "We plan for the future, we learn from the past, we live life in the present!"

Michael P Butler

Nishant S wrote: As usual, a sensible unemotional reply from you :-D (looks like I upset a few people though) Michael CP Blog [^]

Michael P Butler

Rocky Moore wrote: The only real answer is to build your own products to sell and be done with the greed misters! I totally agree. My current plan is to provide low-cost software solutions to local businesses. "A local (development) shop for local people". Of course, first thing I need to do is reduce my development costs. Michael CP Blog [^]

Michael P Butler

Rocky Moore wrote: Sad part is when that day arrives, you may not have work any longer as there will be millions of people who can do the very same thing. They easier solutions become to provide, the more people will jump on the gravy train and the faster the train will derail! Thats the fun part isn't it. Keeping having to adapt to new circumstances, to make yourself stand out from the rest of the crowd by providing a better service. After all, if we didn't like adapting to changing circumstances and technologies, we'd be 'Walmart Greeters" rather than software developers. :-D Michael CP Blog [^]

Kant

That's bad news and Best of Luck for your future. Lost your IT job? Blame HR and your management. Don't blame India, or Indians.[^]
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
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RB Emphasys

Why would work being outsourced to India worry us? Are you serious? Well, it might have something to do with the shrinking availability of jobs for US developers.