Helpful hints if you happen upon a Peace Rally

Chris Losinger

if someone punches me in the face, i'll punch them back, harder. but what happened on 9/11 was not a punch in the face. can you see the difference? 6,000 dead and billions of dollars in damage vs. a fucking black eye. we're talking many magnitudes of difference. the analogy fails, it doesn't scale. even with your murdered children example, the analogy fails; if it happened, you wouldn't murder a murderer's family (in any civilized country), right? you'd take him to jail and let the law decide what to do. eye-for-an-eye went out with the old testament. punch-in-the-face analogies are an attempt to over-simplify the situation. and they only make matters worse by hiding important details and worse, by suppressing rational thought. who are you going to go kill 6,000 of? afghans? pakistanis? palestinians? will doing that change anything but our sense of dignity? hell no. and the millions we didn't kill will be on our doorstep in no time, avenging the deaths of those we killed. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com

Jonathan Gilligan

When Gandhi maintained that nonviolence was the appropriate response to the British machine-gunning a peaceful demonstration in Amritsar in 1919, killing over 400, or when King maintained that nonviolence was the appropriate response to a terrorist bombing of a Sunday School, what was so different about their situations? Should King have demanded that we bomb Alabama, for at the highest levels, that state was clearly harboring terrorists and helping them evade justice for decades. What's interesting is to see how little effect military response has on terrorism. For decades, the English have been trying it in Northern Ireland, and Israel has been trying it against the Palestinian terrorists. As far as I can see, neither has managed to reduce terrorism significantly through force. Only diplomacy with the IRA seems to have reduced the level of terrorism, and even that has only been moderately effective. Gene Sharp, a professor at Harvard, has spent decades studying effective nonviolent methods of political struggle. He has collected case histories that show how nonviolence was even effective against the Holocaust (Civil disobedience and demonstrations by the Danes prevented the Nazis from deporting their Jews to the death camps. A peaceful protest by women in Berlin got the Nazis to release their Jewish husbands). Rather than reacting with violence for violence's sake, let's calm down and look at what might actually be most effective against terrorism. The sad fact is that for the most part, we don't have a clue what would be effective against terrorism. As Martin Luther King repeatedly said, "War is obsolete." (I would recommend reading what he had to say about war, particularly in his 1967 Christams sermon on peace, published in "The Trumpet of Conscience"). We need to find something that will be effective now that we see how impotent military power is against an invisible foe who does not fear death. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and, as difficult as it is, we will still love you --- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Paul Watson

Ok Chris, then tell us, what should we do? I would love to know. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes

Tim Smith

But asking them nicely to stop won't do anything either. Which of course is a moronic oversimplification of your position, but the idea that most want to level Afghanistan is just as moronic. I don't want a war. But if that is the only option THEY leave us, then so be it. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.

Tim Smith

The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. Running around saying "PLEASE STOP" won't help anything. When you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, why stop? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.

Paul Watson

lol I reckon that would have been a good idea... right now I feel like a HumourMint :-D regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes

Richard Stringer

No. But a short term solution, if reapplied on a regular and escalating basis, can be an effective alternate to a long term solution. The easiest long term solution is to eliminate the problem. Kill them all- end of problem. If the perfect solution is not attainable, and I'm not yet convinced of that, an answer may be found in making them so fearful that they will not be tempted to do anything again. In order to accomplish that we should just kill as many as practically possible. And leave a threat hanging over the head of the terrorist(s) that any activity on his/her part to bring him/her to the worlds attention will result in his/her early departure from the toils and troubles of a worldly existance. While on an abstract basis they may want to be martyers I'm a firm beliver that when the abstract becomes concrete they will have a different attitude. f you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

Stan Shannon

Sure, slam the old guys! Actually, I don't have a problem with the peace movement. I also don't have a problem with the Klan or Neo-Nazi's (so long as they aren't actually killing people). The existence of such groups simply prooves that *our* civilization is great enough to tolerate morons. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.

Stan Shannon

Chris, I don't follow your logic either. We are already under attack, isn't it kind of late to worry about makeing someone else angry? "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.

Chris Losinger

i don't know. but an eye-for-an-eye can't be the best answer. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com

Chris Losinger

do we know why we're under attack? i haven't heard any good reason, except what g_wBush mentioned in his vague speech. i guess it could be our "freedom" - but there are plenty of other countries with similar freedoms. it could be our "economy" - but plenty of other countries have solid thriving economies. it might be our "way of life" - but the US lifestyle is probably close to many other countries, in the eyes of a poor afghan. maybe we should find out why this happened - maybe there's a simple solution that doesn't involve a war that, in my opinion, will only create more problems. look at Isreal - they've been trying to beat back the Palestinians for years; Isreal has better weapons, better intelligence (spies), better infrastructure better everything. but what has their use of their better weapons accomplished? absolutely nothing except more resistance, more suicide bombers, more fighting, more hatred. but no, i don't know of a better way - wouldn't matter if i did. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com

Chris Losinger

then the goal should be to eliminate the "everything to gain" part of it. ie. why do people need to resort to such acts to get their point across? what point are they trying to make? is it a valid point? can we do something to help them? ignoring them until we get mad enough to kill them is stupid. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com

John Fisher

It sounds like you're using the "eye for an eye" phrase way out of proportion. Never was is meant to apply to anyone other than the criminal. In other words, you can take the eyes from a criminal if he took the eyes from 6000 people. But you can't take any more than that -- can't kill him because he didn't kill them, can't take the eyes of other people since they weren't involved, etc. Just trying to straighten out your apparent misunderstanding. John

Tim Smith

Why? Because bad people sometimes want to do bad things. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.

Chris Losinger

it's as simple as that? really? how do you know? ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com

Tim Smith

Answers: 1) Because the mainstream element no longer support their desired outcome. (Have you ever noticed that the group out of power tends to be violent. In the 60s, it was the more militant liberals. These days, it is the more militant conservatives.) 2) The destruction of the state is Israel. 3) Why should we? Ignoring them while they kill us is stupid. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.

Tim Smith

Because I don't have my head stuck in the sand saying "Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil." Sometimes a murderer is just a murderer. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.

Chris Losinger

who said anything about ignoring them? -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com

Paul Watson

I know Chris, I really do know it is not the best answer. But the world has it's collective back to the wall and the terrorists are not listening to our pleas. They do not appreciate the food conveys helping their own people in Afghanistan. They take international relief funds and spend it on more weapons. They threaten, plan and plot while world leaders attempt to sit around a table and discuss the problems. In Israel and Palestine the two leaders sit together, speak together and at the same time their own radical people escalate the violence. Words are of no help, relief is of no help. Sympathy will enrage them further. Money just helps their cause. Subertive tactics have simply resulted in radicals being trained even further. Outright war has not been tried, maybe it is all the terrorist will listen to. Up until the WTC event the only remaining super power did not have a large enough reason to use all it's power to stop terrorism for good. Now they do, a very big and valid reason. Living in Africa I see things like this pretty much every day. I see money sent from America and Europe to feed the poor being used to buy jet fighters, assault rifles and navy corvettes. I see the people recieving the money shake the hand of Bush himself and then come back to SA with words of hate and recrimination towards America. Most of it stems simply from an unfathomable fount of jealousy. Africa cannot understand why it flounders while America shines, so it assumes that it is Americas fault. When America helps it is not enough and Africa declares America as repressing us. I think the western world has been very patient. Now we either fight and get over it, or carry on before waiting for the next terrorist attack. It is a sad state of affairs regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes

Jonathan Gilligan

The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. To repeat myself, I agree with you. Without the military, the diplomatic won't work. The part you miss is that experimental evidence (Israel, etc.) suggests that the military solution won't work either. If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? We don't have anything that can be demonstrated to work against this kind of opponent. Just because diplomacy won't work does not prove that military force will work. In fact, we really don't have much of a clue at all how to deal with terrorism. I feel as though our political leaders are like bad engineers. They are copying a circuit design that hasn't worked in the past. When someone else points out that the design is known not to work, they reply, "but I can't just sit around and do nothing!" The idea of working hard to learn new techniques and find something that will work just does not occur to them. On the positive side, there are some constructive things being done. Pursuing the money trail, while boring and not photogenic, is probably one of the most effective responses. Nonetheless, I fear that we will never be able to win a war on terrorism as we can win a conventional war. Israel, which is the best in the business, has been waging military war on terrorists for decades with little success to show for their efforts. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and, as difficult as it is, we will still love you --- Martin Luther King, Jr.