Helpful hints if you happen upon a Peace Rally
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if someone punches me in the face, i'll punch them back, harder. but what happened on 9/11 was not a punch in the face. can you see the difference? 6,000 dead and billions of dollars in damage vs. a fucking black eye. we're talking many magnitudes of difference. the analogy fails, it doesn't scale. even with your murdered children example, the analogy fails; if it happened, you wouldn't murder a murderer's family (in any civilized country), right? you'd take him to jail and let the law decide what to do. eye-for-an-eye went out with the old testament. punch-in-the-face analogies are an attempt to over-simplify the situation. and they only make matters worse by hiding important details and worse, by suppressing rational thought. who are you going to go kill 6,000 of? afghans? pakistanis? palestinians? will doing that change anything but our sense of dignity? hell no. and the millions we didn't kill will be on our doorstep in no time, avenging the deaths of those we killed. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
Chris, I don't follow your logic either. We are already under attack, isn't it kind of late to worry about makeing someone else angry? "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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Ok Chris, then tell us, what should we do? I would love to know. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
i don't know. but an eye-for-an-eye can't be the best answer. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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Chris, I don't follow your logic either. We are already under attack, isn't it kind of late to worry about makeing someone else angry? "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
do we know why we're under attack? i haven't heard any good reason, except what g_wBush mentioned in his vague speech. i guess it could be our "freedom" - but there are plenty of other countries with similar freedoms. it could be our "economy" - but plenty of other countries have solid thriving economies. it might be our "way of life" - but the US lifestyle is probably close to many other countries, in the eyes of a poor afghan. maybe we should find out why this happened - maybe there's a simple solution that doesn't involve a war that, in my opinion, will only create more problems. look at Isreal - they've been trying to beat back the Palestinians for years; Isreal has better weapons, better intelligence (spies), better infrastructure better everything. but what has their use of their better weapons accomplished? absolutely nothing except more resistance, more suicide bombers, more fighting, more hatred. but no, i don't know of a better way - wouldn't matter if i did. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. Running around saying "PLEASE STOP" won't help anything. When you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, why stop? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
then the goal should be to eliminate the "everything to gain" part of it. ie. why do people need to resort to such acts to get their point across? what point are they trying to make? is it a valid point? can we do something to help them? ignoring them until we get mad enough to kill them is stupid. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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i don't know. but an eye-for-an-eye can't be the best answer. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
It sounds like you're using the "eye for an eye" phrase way out of proportion. Never was is meant to apply to anyone other than the criminal. In other words, you can take the eyes from a criminal if he took the eyes from 6000 people. But you can't take any more than that -- can't kill him because he didn't kill them, can't take the eyes of other people since they weren't involved, etc. Just trying to straighten out your apparent misunderstanding. John
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do we know why we're under attack? i haven't heard any good reason, except what g_wBush mentioned in his vague speech. i guess it could be our "freedom" - but there are plenty of other countries with similar freedoms. it could be our "economy" - but plenty of other countries have solid thriving economies. it might be our "way of life" - but the US lifestyle is probably close to many other countries, in the eyes of a poor afghan. maybe we should find out why this happened - maybe there's a simple solution that doesn't involve a war that, in my opinion, will only create more problems. look at Isreal - they've been trying to beat back the Palestinians for years; Isreal has better weapons, better intelligence (spies), better infrastructure better everything. but what has their use of their better weapons accomplished? absolutely nothing except more resistance, more suicide bombers, more fighting, more hatred. but no, i don't know of a better way - wouldn't matter if i did. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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Why? Because bad people sometimes want to do bad things. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
it's as simple as that? really? how do you know? ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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then the goal should be to eliminate the "everything to gain" part of it. ie. why do people need to resort to such acts to get their point across? what point are they trying to make? is it a valid point? can we do something to help them? ignoring them until we get mad enough to kill them is stupid. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
Answers: 1) Because the mainstream element no longer support their desired outcome. (Have you ever noticed that the group out of power tends to be violent. In the 60s, it was the more militant liberals. These days, it is the more militant conservatives.) 2) The destruction of the state is Israel. 3) Why should we? Ignoring them while they kill us is stupid. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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it's as simple as that? really? how do you know? ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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Answers: 1) Because the mainstream element no longer support their desired outcome. (Have you ever noticed that the group out of power tends to be violent. In the 60s, it was the more militant liberals. These days, it is the more militant conservatives.) 2) The destruction of the state is Israel. 3) Why should we? Ignoring them while they kill us is stupid. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
who said anything about ignoring them? -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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i don't know. but an eye-for-an-eye can't be the best answer. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
I know Chris, I really do know it is not the best answer. But the world has it's collective back to the wall and the terrorists are not listening to our pleas. They do not appreciate the food conveys helping their own people in Afghanistan. They take international relief funds and spend it on more weapons. They threaten, plan and plot while world leaders attempt to sit around a table and discuss the problems. In Israel and Palestine the two leaders sit together, speak together and at the same time their own radical people escalate the violence. Words are of no help, relief is of no help. Sympathy will enrage them further. Money just helps their cause. Subertive tactics have simply resulted in radicals being trained even further. Outright war has not been tried, maybe it is all the terrorist will listen to. Up until the WTC event the only remaining super power did not have a large enough reason to use all it's power to stop terrorism for good. Now they do, a very big and valid reason. Living in Africa I see things like this pretty much every day. I see money sent from America and Europe to feed the poor being used to buy jet fighters, assault rifles and navy corvettes. I see the people recieving the money shake the hand of Bush himself and then come back to SA with words of hate and recrimination towards America. Most of it stems simply from an unfathomable fount of jealousy. Africa cannot understand why it flounders while America shines, so it assumes that it is Americas fault. When America helps it is not enough and Africa declares America as repressing us. I think the western world has been very patient. Now we either fight and get over it, or carry on before waiting for the next terrorist attack. It is a sad state of affairs regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. Running around saying "PLEASE STOP" won't help anything. When you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, why stop? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. To repeat myself, I agree with you. Without the military, the diplomatic won't work. The part you miss is that experimental evidence (Israel, etc.) suggests that the military solution won't work either. If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? We don't have anything that can be demonstrated to work against this kind of opponent. Just because diplomacy won't work does not prove that military force will work. In fact, we really don't have much of a clue at all how to deal with terrorism. I feel as though our political leaders are like bad engineers. They are copying a circuit design that hasn't worked in the past. When someone else points out that the design is known not to work, they reply, "but I can't just sit around and do nothing!" The idea of working hard to learn new techniques and find something that will work just does not occur to them. On the positive side, there are some constructive things being done. Pursuing the money trail, while boring and not photogenic, is probably one of the most effective responses. Nonetheless, I fear that we will never be able to win a war on terrorism as we can win a conventional war. Israel, which is the best in the business, has been waging military war on terrorists for decades with little success to show for their efforts. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and, as difficult as it is, we will still love you --- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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who said anything about ignoring them? -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. To repeat myself, I agree with you. Without the military, the diplomatic won't work. The part you miss is that experimental evidence (Israel, etc.) suggests that the military solution won't work either. If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? We don't have anything that can be demonstrated to work against this kind of opponent. Just because diplomacy won't work does not prove that military force will work. In fact, we really don't have much of a clue at all how to deal with terrorism. I feel as though our political leaders are like bad engineers. They are copying a circuit design that hasn't worked in the past. When someone else points out that the design is known not to work, they reply, "but I can't just sit around and do nothing!" The idea of working hard to learn new techniques and find something that will work just does not occur to them. On the positive side, there are some constructive things being done. Pursuing the money trail, while boring and not photogenic, is probably one of the most effective responses. Nonetheless, I fear that we will never be able to win a war on terrorism as we can win a conventional war. Israel, which is the best in the business, has been waging military war on terrorists for decades with little success to show for their efforts. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and, as difficult as it is, we will still love you --- Martin Luther King, Jr.
Case and point "Libya" No, it didn't get rid of terrorism, but it stopped it for a long time. I hate to really break the news to you, nothing will get rid of it for good. As far as Israel, they have not been at war with terrorism. The political climate won't let them get serious. They just sort of play at it. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. To repeat myself, I agree with you. Without the military, the diplomatic won't work. The part you miss is that experimental evidence (Israel, etc.) suggests that the military solution won't work either. If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? We don't have anything that can be demonstrated to work against this kind of opponent. Just because diplomacy won't work does not prove that military force will work. In fact, we really don't have much of a clue at all how to deal with terrorism. I feel as though our political leaders are like bad engineers. They are copying a circuit design that hasn't worked in the past. When someone else points out that the design is known not to work, they reply, "but I can't just sit around and do nothing!" The idea of working hard to learn new techniques and find something that will work just does not occur to them. On the positive side, there are some constructive things being done. Pursuing the money trail, while boring and not photogenic, is probably one of the most effective responses. Nonetheless, I fear that we will never be able to win a war on terrorism as we can win a conventional war. Israel, which is the best in the business, has been waging military war on terrorists for decades with little success to show for their efforts. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and, as difficult as it is, we will still love you --- Martin Luther King, Jr.
If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? I don't care if such an individual is scared or not. The military action is not for making them scared, it's for making them dead. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
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I know Chris, I really do know it is not the best answer. But the world has it's collective back to the wall and the terrorists are not listening to our pleas. They do not appreciate the food conveys helping their own people in Afghanistan. They take international relief funds and spend it on more weapons. They threaten, plan and plot while world leaders attempt to sit around a table and discuss the problems. In Israel and Palestine the two leaders sit together, speak together and at the same time their own radical people escalate the violence. Words are of no help, relief is of no help. Sympathy will enrage them further. Money just helps their cause. Subertive tactics have simply resulted in radicals being trained even further. Outright war has not been tried, maybe it is all the terrorist will listen to. Up until the WTC event the only remaining super power did not have a large enough reason to use all it's power to stop terrorism for good. Now they do, a very big and valid reason. Living in Africa I see things like this pretty much every day. I see money sent from America and Europe to feed the poor being used to buy jet fighters, assault rifles and navy corvettes. I see the people recieving the money shake the hand of Bush himself and then come back to SA with words of hate and recrimination towards America. Most of it stems simply from an unfathomable fount of jealousy. Africa cannot understand why it flounders while America shines, so it assumes that it is Americas fault. When America helps it is not enough and Africa declares America as repressing us. I think the western world has been very patient. Now we either fight and get over it, or carry on before waiting for the next terrorist attack. It is a sad state of affairs regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
thank you. :) -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. To repeat myself, I agree with you. Without the military, the diplomatic won't work. The part you miss is that experimental evidence (Israel, etc.) suggests that the military solution won't work either. If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? We don't have anything that can be demonstrated to work against this kind of opponent. Just because diplomacy won't work does not prove that military force will work. In fact, we really don't have much of a clue at all how to deal with terrorism. I feel as though our political leaders are like bad engineers. They are copying a circuit design that hasn't worked in the past. When someone else points out that the design is known not to work, they reply, "but I can't just sit around and do nothing!" The idea of working hard to learn new techniques and find something that will work just does not occur to them. On the positive side, there are some constructive things being done. Pursuing the money trail, while boring and not photogenic, is probably one of the most effective responses. Nonetheless, I fear that we will never be able to win a war on terrorism as we can win a conventional war. Israel, which is the best in the business, has been waging military war on terrorists for decades with little success to show for their efforts. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and, as difficult as it is, we will still love you --- Martin Luther King, Jr.
If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? Osama bin Laden did not fly an airplane into a building. He hid in a cave while ordering a lackey to fly a plane into a building. The Taliban did not fly an airplane in a building. They treat there own women and children like cattle while harboring a coward who hides in caves after ordering lackeys to fly a plane into a building. These people are nothing but power-hungry, cowardly monsters that need to be removed from the planet. In the long run, if a coalition of countries can hunt down and eliminate the leaders of all internatinal terrorist cells, maybe we can keep their violence down to a palatable level. Don't kid yourselves, it will NEVER be completely eliminated.:(( Real programmers don't document their code. It was hard to write - it should be hard to read!
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who said anything about ignoring them? Doh, you did. ignoring them until we get mad enough to kill them is stupid. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
so i did. :) anyway, this discussion is going nowhere. neither of us has any interest in the point the other is trying to make. we're only interested in the fact that the other doesn't agree with us. cheers. :beer: -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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thank you. :) -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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LOL... What did he say different than me that you didn't read into my messages? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
;P Old saying "It is not what you say, it is how you say it." :) Works like a dream on clients. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
