Helpful hints if you happen upon a Peace Rally
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LOL... What did he say different than me that you didn't read into my messages? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
;P Old saying "It is not what you say, it is how you say it." :) Works like a dream on clients. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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so i did. :) anyway, this discussion is going nowhere. neither of us has any interest in the point the other is trying to make. we're only interested in the fact that the other doesn't agree with us. cheers. :beer: -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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;P Old saying "It is not what you say, it is how you say it." :) Works like a dream on clients. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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I know Chris, I really do know it is not the best answer. But the world has it's collective back to the wall and the terrorists are not listening to our pleas. They do not appreciate the food conveys helping their own people in Afghanistan. They take international relief funds and spend it on more weapons. They threaten, plan and plot while world leaders attempt to sit around a table and discuss the problems. In Israel and Palestine the two leaders sit together, speak together and at the same time their own radical people escalate the violence. Words are of no help, relief is of no help. Sympathy will enrage them further. Money just helps their cause. Subertive tactics have simply resulted in radicals being trained even further. Outright war has not been tried, maybe it is all the terrorist will listen to. Up until the WTC event the only remaining super power did not have a large enough reason to use all it's power to stop terrorism for good. Now they do, a very big and valid reason. Living in Africa I see things like this pretty much every day. I see money sent from America and Europe to feed the poor being used to buy jet fighters, assault rifles and navy corvettes. I see the people recieving the money shake the hand of Bush himself and then come back to SA with words of hate and recrimination towards America. Most of it stems simply from an unfathomable fount of jealousy. Africa cannot understand why it flounders while America shines, so it assumes that it is Americas fault. When America helps it is not enough and Africa declares America as repressing us. I think the western world has been very patient. Now we either fight and get over it, or carry on before waiting for the next terrorist attack. It is a sad state of affairs regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
You have to understand that neither bin Laden nor Taliban are fully native Afghans. So Afghan people are not their people either. The taliban is just using the Afghan land to their advantage. To prevent people from talking back, they do all kinds of atrocities. I think that the Afghan people will be happy to get rid of Taliban, so that they can lead a better life. As for the blood shed issue, how many lives did America pay at Gettysberg for it being united and help becoming the country it is today. There are a lot of such examples. A few deaths, if it can cause a better tomorrow, will be acceptable to many. I guess people in military, police and fire are risking their lives .. why? because they believe that they can contribute to a collective well-being of the society. Afghans are too oppressed and their tormentors brutal. So, we will see more Afghans dying, if the world does not get rid of Taliban than if we looked for a peaceful solution. The Afghan people does not deserve this. The world should act to liberate them from the mess they are in. I think it is the duty of every democratic nation to contribute to this. -Thomas
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do we know why we're under attack? i haven't heard any good reason, except what g_wBush mentioned in his vague speech. i guess it could be our "freedom" - but there are plenty of other countries with similar freedoms. it could be our "economy" - but plenty of other countries have solid thriving economies. it might be our "way of life" - but the US lifestyle is probably close to many other countries, in the eyes of a poor afghan. maybe we should find out why this happened - maybe there's a simple solution that doesn't involve a war that, in my opinion, will only create more problems. look at Isreal - they've been trying to beat back the Palestinians for years; Isreal has better weapons, better intelligence (spies), better infrastructure better everything. but what has their use of their better weapons accomplished? absolutely nothing except more resistance, more suicide bombers, more fighting, more hatred. but no, i don't know of a better way - wouldn't matter if i did. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
The attacks as we know today was planned against a large number of targets in Europe also, but I guess they had better security than US. Also US is symbolic of the capitalistic world than any other prosperous country in the world. If the attack was on capitalism, then NY is the place to strike. But, the motives are not yet known. How do we find it, unless someone speaks up? -Thomas
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You have to understand that neither bin Laden nor Taliban are fully native Afghans. So Afghan people are not their people either. The taliban is just using the Afghan land to their advantage. To prevent people from talking back, they do all kinds of atrocities. I think that the Afghan people will be happy to get rid of Taliban, so that they can lead a better life. As for the blood shed issue, how many lives did America pay at Gettysberg for it being united and help becoming the country it is today. There are a lot of such examples. A few deaths, if it can cause a better tomorrow, will be acceptable to many. I guess people in military, police and fire are risking their lives .. why? because they believe that they can contribute to a collective well-being of the society. Afghans are too oppressed and their tormentors brutal. So, we will see more Afghans dying, if the world does not get rid of Taliban than if we looked for a peaceful solution. The Afghan people does not deserve this. The world should act to liberate them from the mess they are in. I think it is the duty of every democratic nation to contribute to this. -Thomas
the worst bit is that if America steps in to help the Afghan people then in a few years time everyone will be hearing the self same people ripping of America and calling them opressors. Much like in Iran and Saudi Arabia now. Anyways, no more on this topic... sometimes it gets too much and no amount of talking it out helps. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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The sad fact is that without the military, the diplomatic wouldn't work. To repeat myself, I agree with you. Without the military, the diplomatic won't work. The part you miss is that experimental evidence (Israel, etc.) suggests that the military solution won't work either. If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? We don't have anything that can be demonstrated to work against this kind of opponent. Just because diplomacy won't work does not prove that military force will work. In fact, we really don't have much of a clue at all how to deal with terrorism. I feel as though our political leaders are like bad engineers. They are copying a circuit design that hasn't worked in the past. When someone else points out that the design is known not to work, they reply, "but I can't just sit around and do nothing!" The idea of working hard to learn new techniques and find something that will work just does not occur to them. On the positive side, there are some constructive things being done. Pursuing the money trail, while boring and not photogenic, is probably one of the most effective responses. Nonetheless, I fear that we will never be able to win a war on terrorism as we can win a conventional war. Israel, which is the best in the business, has been waging military war on terrorists for decades with little success to show for their efforts. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and, as difficult as it is, we will still love you --- Martin Luther King, Jr.
If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? 1) Because the airplane is full of unarmed civilians, just as the tall building. :mad: 2) They don't have a chance of surviving and being captured by their enemy. :mad: We've all heard that a million monkeys on a million keyboards would eventually come up with the entire works of Shakespeare - thanks to the Internet, we now know this isn't true...
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so i did. :) anyway, this discussion is going nowhere. neither of us has any interest in the point the other is trying to make. we're only interested in the fact that the other doesn't agree with us. cheers. :beer: -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? 1) Because the airplane is full of unarmed civilians, just as the tall building. :mad: 2) They don't have a chance of surviving and being captured by their enemy. :mad: We've all heard that a million monkeys on a million keyboards would eventually come up with the entire works of Shakespeare - thanks to the Internet, we now know this isn't true...
Ah, and I forgot to add to #1... After what happened in Pennsylvania (United Flight 93) we know that the passengers can be unarmed but not defenseless, not anymore after what happened. Passengers will strike back... I don't think that terrorists will be so "brave" now that they lost leverage on the passengers (hope of surviving) We've all heard that a million monkeys on a million keyboards would eventually come up with the entire works of Shakespeare - thanks to the Internet, we now know this isn't true...
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- Approach ignorant person talking about peace and saying there should be "no retaliation. " 2) Have a brief conversation with them and ask if military force is appropriate. 3) When he says, "No, " ask him, "Why not?" 4) When he says, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful, and we should not cause more violence." 5) Punch him in the face . . . hard. 6) When he gets up to punch you, point out to him that it would be a mistake to (and contrary to his values) to punch you because he would be causing more violence. 7) When he agrees with you that he has pledged not to commit violence, punch him in the face again . . . only harder this time. 8) Repeat steps 2 through 7 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to punch back. -John
*spontaneous applause* The day after the WTC inident, we had a womaon on the FRONT page of the paper holding a candle and saying that we should not respond to violence with violence and that Tasmania could be a beacon to the world for peace. Yeah, right. I wonder if she'd be holding that stupid candle on my newspaper if the effents affected her personally in any way - until that time she has NO right to comment. All of Hobart is covered with posters that say 'War does not stop terrorism - if war starts, protest in the city square at 4 pm that day'. It has three names and phone numbers. Next time I'm on a coding spree and up at 2 am I'm going to call each of these people to ask if painting a target on your bum and bending over is a better solution in their opinion. To quote the mighty James Hetfield - 'To want peace is to declare for war'. I hope that we DON'T end up in the middle of WW III and I hope that more innocent people do not die, but I don't see how anyone can claim that the US should not retaliate, not for an eye for an eye, but to make clear that people who do this sort of thing will recieve the just reward for their actions. Otherwise you may as well paint a target on the new WTC and one on the White House as well. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Case and point "Libya" No, it didn't get rid of terrorism, but it stopped it for a long time. I hate to really break the news to you, nothing will get rid of it for good. As far as Israel, they have not been at war with terrorism. The political climate won't let them get serious. They just sort of play at it. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
As far as Israel, they have not been at war with terrorism. The political climate won't let them get serious. They just sort of play at it. Excuse me? Israel is fighting for its life. I know. My brother is on active duty in the Israeli army. The problem is that when they "get serious," as they did at Shatila and Sabra, it has only made the problem worse. You might try reading "E-Mail from an Anxious State," in last Sunday's New York Times for a perspective on this from a wise Israeli. The USSR tried to get very serious with terrorism in Afghanistan and Chechnya with similar results. Unless they are willing to commit genocide, they can't kill all the terrorists because they can't find them all. I concede to you about Libya, but still am not convinced that military force will work on this brand of terrorism any more than executing McVeigh will end his kind. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and, as difficult as it is, we will still love you --- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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If someone has no fear of flying an airplane into a tall building, why would he be scared of a soldier? I don't care if such an individual is scared or not. The military action is not for making them scared, it's for making them dead. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
I don't care if such an individual is scared or not. The military action is not for making them scared, it's for making them dead. They're already dead. What I would prefer would be to stop them from trying to fly airplanes into tall buildings in the first place. It's cold comfort that they're dead. Here's the problem: In the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq had much better trained and better equipped troops than Iran (the U.S., always wise in international relations, gave Saddam Hussain lots of help in this department). Iraqi arms did very well at killing poorly armed and poorly trained Iranian soldiers. However, the Iranians were not afraid to die, so thousands of soldiers would launch human-wave attacks against Iraq. By the end of the war, almost 400,000 Iranian soldiers were dead. However, the willingness of hundreds of thousands of soldiers to show up at the front, many bringing their own burial shrouds and expecting to become martyrs, allowed Iran to push Iraq back. If you're counting on military to kill all the terrorists, you will find that there are far too many who will continue to slip through the holes and deliver commit atrocities as on the 11th. Moreover, as you try to tighten the net, you will increasingly find your soldiers shooting down innocent civilian airplanes, as the U.S.S. Vincennes did during the Iran-Iraq war. At some point, your soldiers and the people back home may lose their taste for killing innocent civilians by mistake, as happened to the U.S. in VietNam. Military action works well against nation-states, but it is not at all clear how to conduct a military operation against a small number of individuals spread out across many nations. Many Arab oil states have a long history of funding not only Islamic terrorism, but other groups (e.g., the IRA, ETA, possibly Baader-Meinhof and the Japanese Red Army although these last two are not so clear). If they call in their chips and next group of terrorists to attack the U.S. comes from Ireland or Spain, do we bomb Belfast or Guernica?
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My biggest problem is how terse my messages get. edit... Which is also why they don't let me close to clients. :) Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Which is also why they don't let me close to clients. We had a deal happening with people in Singapore that was going to put our company on the map, or at least in the black. Over time they basically screwed us over ( to be fair I think things didn't work out their end, we'd not tied them to anything concrete enough to get ANY return on a years coding, but we got screwed nonetheless ), and towards the end when visists from Singapore that didn't happen were proposed I suggested we all wear 'Stop the Asian invasion' T-shirts. ( As an aside I can remember that being painted all over Melbourne for real by people who felt that immigrants were to blame for their laziness ). Now, I'm not racist at *all*, but I also will go just about anywhere in jest for a laugh. For me, it's a coping mechanism as much as anything, for example I told the guys at work I stayed home yesterday to show Donna how unusually sensitive I am and set myself up for the next year. It gets me in all sorts of trouble when people misunderstand my intention, which is often to comment on how terrible the thing I am joking about is, certainly in the case of racism. However, since those days and the office overhearing me in complaint mode on the phone to morons, I am last on the list of people given customer contact. My proposals within the office for replies to really dumb support questions ( Like the person buying the software and asking at the same time if he could get his money back if he returned it shrinkwrapped ) probably didn't help. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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- Approach ignorant person talking about peace and saying there should be "no retaliation. " 2) Have a brief conversation with them and ask if military force is appropriate. 3) When he says, "No, " ask him, "Why not?" 4) When he says, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful, and we should not cause more violence." 5) Punch him in the face . . . hard. 6) When he gets up to punch you, point out to him that it would be a mistake to (and contrary to his values) to punch you because he would be causing more violence. 7) When he agrees with you that he has pledged not to commit violence, punch him in the face again . . . only harder this time. 8) Repeat steps 2 through 7 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to punch back. -John
Oh, this is terrible. It violates my delicate sensibilities. Please move this awful thread to the Rant and Rave forum post haste. :rolleyes: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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*spontaneous applause* The day after the WTC inident, we had a womaon on the FRONT page of the paper holding a candle and saying that we should not respond to violence with violence and that Tasmania could be a beacon to the world for peace. Yeah, right. I wonder if she'd be holding that stupid candle on my newspaper if the effents affected her personally in any way - until that time she has NO right to comment. All of Hobart is covered with posters that say 'War does not stop terrorism - if war starts, protest in the city square at 4 pm that day'. It has three names and phone numbers. Next time I'm on a coding spree and up at 2 am I'm going to call each of these people to ask if painting a target on your bum and bending over is a better solution in their opinion. To quote the mighty James Hetfield - 'To want peace is to declare for war'. I hope that we DON'T end up in the middle of WW III and I hope that more innocent people do not die, but I don't see how anyone can claim that the US should not retaliate, not for an eye for an eye, but to make clear that people who do this sort of thing will recieve the just reward for their actions. Otherwise you may as well paint a target on the new WTC and one on the White House as well. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
After coming home from work and reading 57 posts it struck me that a significant number of folks from around the world have it right. With so much interaction it just seemed necessary to add my 2 cents. So I will. One key consideration is that the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon was an act of war - an absolute declaration of war on my country. I frankly do not give a sh*t why it happened and I simply do not care a whit about the motives. My country, under admittedly weak leadership of previous administrations, has turned the other cheek many times - to no avail. This time we are blessed with (so far) strong leadership who shows every indication of executing the correct series of responses. My heart goes out to the poor Afgans, their life appears to be a horrid existence. But they are also harboring a warped killer of civilians: men, women and children - supported by a religous group that finds sport in murdering citizens in a football stadium. A significant number of Afgans seem to understand and are fleeing the country. I applaud their intelligience. As to comments regarding the nation of Israel , the real problem there is the rest of the world - we should let the dogs loose and let Sharon clean house. One fault I find with my country's leadership is its' willingness to cater to Arafat - scum who should have been dealt with long ago. I sincerely hope that we go in and deal with the immediate problem and deal with it decisively. No, that doesn't mean to love them to death. A few days ago there was a comment regarding a "bucket of sunshine" - I don't disagree, civilization is at risk if the problem is not dealt with. Some of you may say that the problem is best solved by understanding the root cause. I'll repeat myself, I don't care what the root cause may be. It simply doesn't matter. If the terrorists believe they have a religous duty to punish western civilization with a religous Jihad then it is time for western civilization to fight back with a non-stop crusade. I have children, one in the service, grandchildren and one grandchild. I want them all to have a life free these types of concerns. The only way for that to be truly achieved is for my country and its honest allies to fight back, do so immediately - then move on to the other groups/countries: Hezbullah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad / and those nations that support these groups. Mike Old Programmer - still capable of logical thought
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- Approach ignorant person talking about peace and saying there should be "no retaliation. " 2) Have a brief conversation with them and ask if military force is appropriate. 3) When he says, "No, " ask him, "Why not?" 4) When he says, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful, and we should not cause more violence." 5) Punch him in the face . . . hard. 6) When he gets up to punch you, point out to him that it would be a mistake to (and contrary to his values) to punch you because he would be causing more violence. 7) When he agrees with you that he has pledged not to commit violence, punch him in the face again . . . only harder this time. 8) Repeat steps 2 through 7 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to punch back. -John
Colorful... and if the analogy holds, what you are saying is that he should punch the elderly lady on the bench over there for "harboring" you, right?
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BZZZZZZZZZZZ. I sorry contestant #2, but that is the wrong answer. 200 points off your score. Imagine what the world would be like if the allies didn't "punch back" against Hitler. Saying the violence is never the solution is like saying the no violence is always the solution. If we lived in a world where everyone thought just like me, we would all get along just fine. But, that isn't the real world. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Violence is never the solution, but sometimes it's needed just to get people to talk about a solution.
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Which is also why they don't let me close to clients. We had a deal happening with people in Singapore that was going to put our company on the map, or at least in the black. Over time they basically screwed us over ( to be fair I think things didn't work out their end, we'd not tied them to anything concrete enough to get ANY return on a years coding, but we got screwed nonetheless ), and towards the end when visists from Singapore that didn't happen were proposed I suggested we all wear 'Stop the Asian invasion' T-shirts. ( As an aside I can remember that being painted all over Melbourne for real by people who felt that immigrants were to blame for their laziness ). Now, I'm not racist at *all*, but I also will go just about anywhere in jest for a laugh. For me, it's a coping mechanism as much as anything, for example I told the guys at work I stayed home yesterday to show Donna how unusually sensitive I am and set myself up for the next year. It gets me in all sorts of trouble when people misunderstand my intention, which is often to comment on how terrible the thing I am joking about is, certainly in the case of racism. However, since those days and the office overhearing me in complaint mode on the phone to morons, I am last on the list of people given customer contact. My proposals within the office for replies to really dumb support questions ( Like the person buying the software and asking at the same time if he could get his money back if he returned it shrinkwrapped ) probably didn't help. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I am last on the list of people given customer contact oh lord how I wish I were on the last of that list. Can you give me a few pointers on how to drop a few places? :-D I can deal with buggy programmes, junior programmers, crashing Windows, faulty networks, stupid bosses and non-standard compliance products. But dealing with customer support calls leave me feeling all twitchy and irritable. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. You may have been good at it but did you enjoy it? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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I am last on the list of people given customer contact oh lord how I wish I were on the last of that list. Can you give me a few pointers on how to drop a few places? :-D I can deal with buggy programmes, junior programmers, crashing Windows, faulty networks, stupid bosses and non-standard compliance products. But dealing with customer support calls leave me feeling all twitchy and irritable. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. You may have been good at it but did you enjoy it? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
oh lord how I wish I were on the last of that list. Can you give me a few pointers on how to drop a few places? Like I said, make racist and inflamatory remarks in jest until they're not sure what you WILL say if you're in a customer contact situation. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. You may have been good at it but did you enjoy it? I *thought* I did, but in hindsight I loved sitting in cafes ( I sold coffee for most of my career ), driving the company car around the state and choosing my own schedule/hours. When I turned 30 I got really depressed, which is how I ended up here ( i.e. programming again & doing it for a living ), and I realise now I could never go back to sales. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I don't care if such an individual is scared or not. The military action is not for making them scared, it's for making them dead. They're already dead. What I would prefer would be to stop them from trying to fly airplanes into tall buildings in the first place. It's cold comfort that they're dead. Here's the problem: In the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq had much better trained and better equipped troops than Iran (the U.S., always wise in international relations, gave Saddam Hussain lots of help in this department). Iraqi arms did very well at killing poorly armed and poorly trained Iranian soldiers. However, the Iranians were not afraid to die, so thousands of soldiers would launch human-wave attacks against Iraq. By the end of the war, almost 400,000 Iranian soldiers were dead. However, the willingness of hundreds of thousands of soldiers to show up at the front, many bringing their own burial shrouds and expecting to become martyrs, allowed Iran to push Iraq back. If you're counting on military to kill all the terrorists, you will find that there are far too many who will continue to slip through the holes and deliver commit atrocities as on the 11th. Moreover, as you try to tighten the net, you will increasingly find your soldiers shooting down innocent civilian airplanes, as the U.S.S. Vincennes did during the Iran-Iraq war. At some point, your soldiers and the people back home may lose their taste for killing innocent civilians by mistake, as happened to the U.S. in VietNam. Military action works well against nation-states, but it is not at all clear how to conduct a military operation against a small number of individuals spread out across many nations. Many Arab oil states have a long history of funding not only Islamic terrorism, but other groups (e.g., the IRA, ETA, possibly Baader-Meinhof and the Japanese Red Army although these last two are not so clear). If they call in their chips and next group of terrorists to attack the U.S. comes from Ireland or Spain, do we bomb Belfast or Guernica?
They're already dead. Is this a metaphore or are you trying to suggest that the only people responsible for the attacks were on the planes? Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
