Helpful hints if you happen upon a Peace Rally
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BZZZZZZZZZZZ. I sorry contestant #2, but that is the wrong answer. 200 points off your score. Imagine what the world would be like if the allies didn't "punch back" against Hitler. Saying the violence is never the solution is like saying the no violence is always the solution. If we lived in a world where everyone thought just like me, we would all get along just fine. But, that isn't the real world. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Violence is never the solution, but sometimes it's needed just to get people to talk about a solution.
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Which is also why they don't let me close to clients. We had a deal happening with people in Singapore that was going to put our company on the map, or at least in the black. Over time they basically screwed us over ( to be fair I think things didn't work out their end, we'd not tied them to anything concrete enough to get ANY return on a years coding, but we got screwed nonetheless ), and towards the end when visists from Singapore that didn't happen were proposed I suggested we all wear 'Stop the Asian invasion' T-shirts. ( As an aside I can remember that being painted all over Melbourne for real by people who felt that immigrants were to blame for their laziness ). Now, I'm not racist at *all*, but I also will go just about anywhere in jest for a laugh. For me, it's a coping mechanism as much as anything, for example I told the guys at work I stayed home yesterday to show Donna how unusually sensitive I am and set myself up for the next year. It gets me in all sorts of trouble when people misunderstand my intention, which is often to comment on how terrible the thing I am joking about is, certainly in the case of racism. However, since those days and the office overhearing me in complaint mode on the phone to morons, I am last on the list of people given customer contact. My proposals within the office for replies to really dumb support questions ( Like the person buying the software and asking at the same time if he could get his money back if he returned it shrinkwrapped ) probably didn't help. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I am last on the list of people given customer contact oh lord how I wish I were on the last of that list. Can you give me a few pointers on how to drop a few places? :-D I can deal with buggy programmes, junior programmers, crashing Windows, faulty networks, stupid bosses and non-standard compliance products. But dealing with customer support calls leave me feeling all twitchy and irritable. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. You may have been good at it but did you enjoy it? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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I am last on the list of people given customer contact oh lord how I wish I were on the last of that list. Can you give me a few pointers on how to drop a few places? :-D I can deal with buggy programmes, junior programmers, crashing Windows, faulty networks, stupid bosses and non-standard compliance products. But dealing with customer support calls leave me feeling all twitchy and irritable. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. You may have been good at it but did you enjoy it? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
oh lord how I wish I were on the last of that list. Can you give me a few pointers on how to drop a few places? Like I said, make racist and inflamatory remarks in jest until they're not sure what you WILL say if you're in a customer contact situation. Which is sad, I was a sales rep, so I'm actually pretty good at it. You may have been good at it but did you enjoy it? I *thought* I did, but in hindsight I loved sitting in cafes ( I sold coffee for most of my career ), driving the company car around the state and choosing my own schedule/hours. When I turned 30 I got really depressed, which is how I ended up here ( i.e. programming again & doing it for a living ), and I realise now I could never go back to sales. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I don't care if such an individual is scared or not. The military action is not for making them scared, it's for making them dead. They're already dead. What I would prefer would be to stop them from trying to fly airplanes into tall buildings in the first place. It's cold comfort that they're dead. Here's the problem: In the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq had much better trained and better equipped troops than Iran (the U.S., always wise in international relations, gave Saddam Hussain lots of help in this department). Iraqi arms did very well at killing poorly armed and poorly trained Iranian soldiers. However, the Iranians were not afraid to die, so thousands of soldiers would launch human-wave attacks against Iraq. By the end of the war, almost 400,000 Iranian soldiers were dead. However, the willingness of hundreds of thousands of soldiers to show up at the front, many bringing their own burial shrouds and expecting to become martyrs, allowed Iran to push Iraq back. If you're counting on military to kill all the terrorists, you will find that there are far too many who will continue to slip through the holes and deliver commit atrocities as on the 11th. Moreover, as you try to tighten the net, you will increasingly find your soldiers shooting down innocent civilian airplanes, as the U.S.S. Vincennes did during the Iran-Iraq war. At some point, your soldiers and the people back home may lose their taste for killing innocent civilians by mistake, as happened to the U.S. in VietNam. Military action works well against nation-states, but it is not at all clear how to conduct a military operation against a small number of individuals spread out across many nations. Many Arab oil states have a long history of funding not only Islamic terrorism, but other groups (e.g., the IRA, ETA, possibly Baader-Meinhof and the Japanese Red Army although these last two are not so clear). If they call in their chips and next group of terrorists to attack the U.S. comes from Ireland or Spain, do we bomb Belfast or Guernica?
They're already dead. Is this a metaphore or are you trying to suggest that the only people responsible for the attacks were on the planes? Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
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Colorful... and if the analogy holds, what you are saying is that he should punch the elderly lady on the bench over there for "harboring" you, right?
Yeah, just beat the crap out of the old bag and if all the other old ladies in the neighborhood want some of it they can bring it on. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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After coming home from work and reading 57 posts it struck me that a significant number of folks from around the world have it right. With so much interaction it just seemed necessary to add my 2 cents. So I will. One key consideration is that the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon was an act of war - an absolute declaration of war on my country. I frankly do not give a sh*t why it happened and I simply do not care a whit about the motives. My country, under admittedly weak leadership of previous administrations, has turned the other cheek many times - to no avail. This time we are blessed with (so far) strong leadership who shows every indication of executing the correct series of responses. My heart goes out to the poor Afgans, their life appears to be a horrid existence. But they are also harboring a warped killer of civilians: men, women and children - supported by a religous group that finds sport in murdering citizens in a football stadium. A significant number of Afgans seem to understand and are fleeing the country. I applaud their intelligience. As to comments regarding the nation of Israel , the real problem there is the rest of the world - we should let the dogs loose and let Sharon clean house. One fault I find with my country's leadership is its' willingness to cater to Arafat - scum who should have been dealt with long ago. I sincerely hope that we go in and deal with the immediate problem and deal with it decisively. No, that doesn't mean to love them to death. A few days ago there was a comment regarding a "bucket of sunshine" - I don't disagree, civilization is at risk if the problem is not dealt with. Some of you may say that the problem is best solved by understanding the root cause. I'll repeat myself, I don't care what the root cause may be. It simply doesn't matter. If the terrorists believe they have a religous duty to punish western civilization with a religous Jihad then it is time for western civilization to fight back with a non-stop crusade. I have children, one in the service, grandchildren and one grandchild. I want them all to have a life free these types of concerns. The only way for that to be truly achieved is for my country and its honest allies to fight back, do so immediately - then move on to the other groups/countries: Hezbullah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad / and those nations that support these groups. Mike Old Programmer - still capable of logical thought
"Some of you may say that the problem is best solved by understanding the root cause. I'll repeat myself, I don't care what the root cause may be. It simply doesn't matter. If the terrorists believe they have a religous duty to punish western civilization with a religous Jihad then it is time for western civilization to fight back with a non-stop crusade." Exactly. We obviously have no power to make the Islamic world like us. The only power we have is to make them fear us. If terror is their weapon of choice, we should oblige them. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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You have to understand that neither bin Laden nor Taliban are fully native Afghans. So Afghan people are not their people either. The taliban is just using the Afghan land to their advantage. To prevent people from talking back, they do all kinds of atrocities. I think that the Afghan people will be happy to get rid of Taliban, so that they can lead a better life. As for the blood shed issue, how many lives did America pay at Gettysberg for it being united and help becoming the country it is today. There are a lot of such examples. A few deaths, if it can cause a better tomorrow, will be acceptable to many. I guess people in military, police and fire are risking their lives .. why? because they believe that they can contribute to a collective well-being of the society. Afghans are too oppressed and their tormentors brutal. So, we will see more Afghans dying, if the world does not get rid of Taliban than if we looked for a peaceful solution. The Afghan people does not deserve this. The world should act to liberate them from the mess they are in. I think it is the duty of every democratic nation to contribute to this. -Thomas
You realize that along with the military force to flush the terrorists, and probably the Taliban leadership. The US is also preparing a $100 million relief package for Afganistan. I wish people would stop assuming that all of our anger is directed at Afganistan. Our anger is directed at terrorists who happen to be in Afganistan, and the 'government' that supports them. Were they all to move, so would the battle. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for [the one in authority] does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of Wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer -- Romans 13:4
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do we know why we're under attack? i haven't heard any good reason, except what g_wBush mentioned in his vague speech. i guess it could be our "freedom" - but there are plenty of other countries with similar freedoms. it could be our "economy" - but plenty of other countries have solid thriving economies. it might be our "way of life" - but the US lifestyle is probably close to many other countries, in the eyes of a poor afghan. maybe we should find out why this happened - maybe there's a simple solution that doesn't involve a war that, in my opinion, will only create more problems. look at Isreal - they've been trying to beat back the Palestinians for years; Isreal has better weapons, better intelligence (spies), better infrastructure better everything. but what has their use of their better weapons accomplished? absolutely nothing except more resistance, more suicide bombers, more fighting, more hatred. but no, i don't know of a better way - wouldn't matter if i did. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
The Israelis have also massively moderated their response to the Palestinians at the request of the US, and the UN, (backed up with threats of dropping support if they get too far out of line, probably). They are not fighting to 'win', they are responding to threats to their safety. I personally do not want to think about what militant Israelis might do to the Palestinians if the US were to give them free reign over their actions. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for [the one in authority] does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of Wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer -- Romans 13:4
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if someone punches me in the face, i'll punch them back, harder. but what happened on 9/11 was not a punch in the face. can you see the difference? 6,000 dead and billions of dollars in damage vs. a fucking black eye. we're talking many magnitudes of difference. the analogy fails, it doesn't scale. even with your murdered children example, the analogy fails; if it happened, you wouldn't murder a murderer's family (in any civilized country), right? you'd take him to jail and let the law decide what to do. eye-for-an-eye went out with the old testament. punch-in-the-face analogies are an attempt to over-simplify the situation. and they only make matters worse by hiding important details and worse, by suppressing rational thought. who are you going to go kill 6,000 of? afghans? pakistanis? palestinians? will doing that change anything but our sense of dignity? hell no. and the millions we didn't kill will be on our doorstep in no time, avenging the deaths of those we killed. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
Look, after reading through this entire thread. I want to add the following information. When this event happened, as a Christian, I spent the entire first week following in turmoil between my anger at the terrorist groups, and my desire to follow Christ and 'turn the other cheek.' Finally, my pastor had a sermon that Sunday that addressed that issue (no not any mystical coincidence, it was designed for that Sunday after the fact.) Basically it comes down to this, as an individual I offer my prayers in love to my enemies, the terrorists (not just Afghans or Muslims in general; although I pray for them too, they are not my enemies,) that they will at least come to a mindset of peaceful living with others, and of course as a Christian, that they will find life in Jesus Christ. However, as my new sig shows, I believe that I can support the authorities to track down and destroy them for their wrongdoing and protect me and my family. In terms of the analogy, if someone were to murder my wife, I would turn to the police for justice, and pray that the murder finds life, freedom, and forgiveness in Christ for the next world before that justice is carried out and it is too late. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for [the one in authority] does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of Wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer -- Romans 13:4
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They're already dead. Is this a metaphore or are you trying to suggest that the only people responsible for the attacks were on the planes? Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
You're right. I overstated the case. The people on the planes were the ones most responsible for the attacks, but you are right to remind me that they do have accomplices who survived. The key here is how do we prevent future terrorism. The military may find and kill bin Laden, but I doubt that would have a significant effect on future terrorism. bin Laden will become a martyr and many will continue to kill in his name. For the job of rooting out the population of terrorists, which does its best to blend into civilian populations, the military is the wrong tool for the job. If we had had advanced warning of the Sept. 11th attack, precision bombing of the terrorists' homes in Florida and Boston would not have been as effective as police raids. More effective will be measures to freeze the financial assets the terrorists use to fund these atrocities. This is not a military action, but will be more effective. Bringing the terrorists to justice, providing them with a fair and open trial, and making sure that when they are convicted that they never breathe the air of freedom again would score a huge propaganda victory for our side.
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You're right. I overstated the case. The people on the planes were the ones most responsible for the attacks, but you are right to remind me that they do have accomplices who survived. The key here is how do we prevent future terrorism. The military may find and kill bin Laden, but I doubt that would have a significant effect on future terrorism. bin Laden will become a martyr and many will continue to kill in his name. For the job of rooting out the population of terrorists, which does its best to blend into civilian populations, the military is the wrong tool for the job. If we had had advanced warning of the Sept. 11th attack, precision bombing of the terrorists' homes in Florida and Boston would not have been as effective as police raids. More effective will be measures to freeze the financial assets the terrorists use to fund these atrocities. This is not a military action, but will be more effective. Bringing the terrorists to justice, providing them with a fair and open trial, and making sure that when they are convicted that they never breathe the air of freedom again would score a huge propaganda victory for our side.
Nobody claims that using military forces will solve this problem. It's just one of the ways to reduce the danger. Leaving terrorist camps untouched would be a collosal stupidity. Do you think that UN or any government can negotiate with Taliban and make them withdraw their support for bin Laden? Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
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You realize that along with the military force to flush the terrorists, and probably the Taliban leadership. The US is also preparing a $100 million relief package for Afganistan. I wish people would stop assuming that all of our anger is directed at Afganistan. Our anger is directed at terrorists who happen to be in Afganistan, and the 'government' that supports them. Were they all to move, so would the battle. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for [the one in authority] does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of Wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer -- Romans 13:4
What I said can be summarised as: "Irrespective of whether any harm is done to the democratic countries (the ones that value human rights), they should have no relationship whatsoever (economic, military, diplomatic, artistic, immigration...) with regimes that do not value human rights." The democratic nations should be committed to that in principle. They should also do whatever necessary actions to root out atrocities on people in any part of the world. Thomas