Shocking
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In the literal sense. Well, I'm cleaning up/renovating/finishing my unfinished basement and reaalized I'm going to need to do some electrical work. Mostly just re-wiring, adding and removing some outlets and switches, possibly adding a circuit or two. I've done some electrical work, helped out with some more, watched electricians do some stuff, and feel that everything I need to do is within my skill level. The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected... to avoid code violations and stuff like that. Even though I can almost certainly get away without doing this, for my own peace of mind, or if I ever sell the place, I think I'll do things "by the book" and get my work inspected. I am strongly leaning towards doing the work myself, as opposed to having electricians do it. I've had mixed experiences with electricians... some do great work, others take shortcuts and don't follow code or don't get their work inspected... others do good work but not necessarily what I want (comminucation issues.) So... do you think I should do it myself? Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? Any battle stories (hopefully none as bad as some of the circular saw stories I've seen here... :~ ) or words of wisdom for your average software engineer about to take on a hardware job? :-D An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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In the literal sense. Well, I'm cleaning up/renovating/finishing my unfinished basement and reaalized I'm going to need to do some electrical work. Mostly just re-wiring, adding and removing some outlets and switches, possibly adding a circuit or two. I've done some electrical work, helped out with some more, watched electricians do some stuff, and feel that everything I need to do is within my skill level. The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected... to avoid code violations and stuff like that. Even though I can almost certainly get away without doing this, for my own peace of mind, or if I ever sell the place, I think I'll do things "by the book" and get my work inspected. I am strongly leaning towards doing the work myself, as opposed to having electricians do it. I've had mixed experiences with electricians... some do great work, others take shortcuts and don't follow code or don't get their work inspected... others do good work but not necessarily what I want (comminucation issues.) So... do you think I should do it myself? Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? Any battle stories (hopefully none as bad as some of the circular saw stories I've seen here... :~ ) or words of wisdom for your average software engineer about to take on a hardware job? :-D An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
I've done or replaced probably half of the electrical wiring in my house and it was mentioned when the place was valued about a year ago and there weren't any problems associated with it. (UK.) I have no idea if I was required to get it signed off when I've done it, but to be honest I'm living here and I'm confident in my abilities so if it needs a bit of paper I can get it when I decide to sell. In fact, if I was to get an electrician to come and inspect my work he would tell me mine was better done than the original electrician-installed wiring... which I'm 'shocked' lasted as long as it did. (I really hope building standards have improved since the 60's.) I tend to err on the side of caution, especially with things that can kill you like electricity, so everything I have done has been by the book to the letter and with the page number stamped on the back of it. If all you're doing is adding in a circuit and moving a few sockets around then that is probably within the skill level of most people with a logical head on their shoulders and the right tools so I would do it myself and get someone to come in and sign it off afterwards. If you're going to be working on anything that you're not confident with then call an electrician. If you are not certain of the building regulations yourself then call an electrician (they should be able to give you an on-site consultation, at cost). If you have never wired in a new circuit before and you are taking it directly from your grid feed then I would ask an electrician to come in to install a spur for you to wire into. That might even be a legal requirement. ([edit] - it is here, see Antony's reply below.) Navin wrote: Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? If they ripped out everything and/or wired the entire house then I would probably take a peek myself and if I wasn't sure I would get an electrician in to do a survey. I would tend to assume that they wouldn't ahve done it if they weren't competant... :~ Qualified electricians won't necessarily do a brilliant job either though - I've seen wires twisted together, wrapped in tape and burried unprotected in plaster walls, and the earth circuit for my mum's house was connected to a plastic water pipe. Always supervise any electrician - you'll get to learn too.
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I've done or replaced probably half of the electrical wiring in my house and it was mentioned when the place was valued about a year ago and there weren't any problems associated with it. (UK.) I have no idea if I was required to get it signed off when I've done it, but to be honest I'm living here and I'm confident in my abilities so if it needs a bit of paper I can get it when I decide to sell. In fact, if I was to get an electrician to come and inspect my work he would tell me mine was better done than the original electrician-installed wiring... which I'm 'shocked' lasted as long as it did. (I really hope building standards have improved since the 60's.) I tend to err on the side of caution, especially with things that can kill you like electricity, so everything I have done has been by the book to the letter and with the page number stamped on the back of it. If all you're doing is adding in a circuit and moving a few sockets around then that is probably within the skill level of most people with a logical head on their shoulders and the right tools so I would do it myself and get someone to come in and sign it off afterwards. If you're going to be working on anything that you're not confident with then call an electrician. If you are not certain of the building regulations yourself then call an electrician (they should be able to give you an on-site consultation, at cost). If you have never wired in a new circuit before and you are taking it directly from your grid feed then I would ask an electrician to come in to install a spur for you to wire into. That might even be a legal requirement. ([edit] - it is here, see Antony's reply below.) Navin wrote: Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? If they ripped out everything and/or wired the entire house then I would probably take a peek myself and if I wasn't sure I would get an electrician in to do a survey. I would tend to assume that they wouldn't ahve done it if they weren't competant... :~ Qualified electricians won't necessarily do a brilliant job either though - I've seen wires twisted together, wrapped in tape and burried unprotected in plaster walls, and the earth circuit for my mum's house was connected to a plastic water pipe. Always supervise any electrician - you'll get to learn too.
David Wulff wrote: earth circuit for my mum's house was connected to a plastic water pipe. You are not serious! Are you? :sigh:
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In the literal sense. Well, I'm cleaning up/renovating/finishing my unfinished basement and reaalized I'm going to need to do some electrical work. Mostly just re-wiring, adding and removing some outlets and switches, possibly adding a circuit or two. I've done some electrical work, helped out with some more, watched electricians do some stuff, and feel that everything I need to do is within my skill level. The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected... to avoid code violations and stuff like that. Even though I can almost certainly get away without doing this, for my own peace of mind, or if I ever sell the place, I think I'll do things "by the book" and get my work inspected. I am strongly leaning towards doing the work myself, as opposed to having electricians do it. I've had mixed experiences with electricians... some do great work, others take shortcuts and don't follow code or don't get their work inspected... others do good work but not necessarily what I want (comminucation issues.) So... do you think I should do it myself? Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? Any battle stories (hopefully none as bad as some of the circular saw stories I've seen here... :~ ) or words of wisdom for your average software engineer about to take on a hardware job? :-D An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
I have a simple rule when it comes to this kind of thing, If it involves gas, electricty or water then I pay somebody to do it. Anything that when it goes wrong can either involve injury/death or major house damage, I leave to the professionals. At least then I have somebody to sue ;-) Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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In the literal sense. Well, I'm cleaning up/renovating/finishing my unfinished basement and reaalized I'm going to need to do some electrical work. Mostly just re-wiring, adding and removing some outlets and switches, possibly adding a circuit or two. I've done some electrical work, helped out with some more, watched electricians do some stuff, and feel that everything I need to do is within my skill level. The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected... to avoid code violations and stuff like that. Even though I can almost certainly get away without doing this, for my own peace of mind, or if I ever sell the place, I think I'll do things "by the book" and get my work inspected. I am strongly leaning towards doing the work myself, as opposed to having electricians do it. I've had mixed experiences with electricians... some do great work, others take shortcuts and don't follow code or don't get their work inspected... others do good work but not necessarily what I want (comminucation issues.) So... do you think I should do it myself? Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? Any battle stories (hopefully none as bad as some of the circular saw stories I've seen here... :~ ) or words of wisdom for your average software engineer about to take on a hardware job? :-D An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected New law here in the UK states that you need to have a certified electrician add new circuits (spurs) etc. There are some exclusions. If you replace like for like you do not need to have it checked. i.e. if I was to replace a switch, pulg top or light fitting. However it does not stop you doing it yourself and have it certified by a certified electrician at a later date. I have recently bought a house in which I had the appropriate electrical checks done. Subsequent work was carried out by a certified electrician. I could have done the work myself but given that I had taken £130,000 in morgage £500 (including parts) was a drop in the ocean to have all the work done. Ant. I'm hard, yet soft.
I'm coloured, yet clear.
I'm fruity and sweet.
I'm jelly, what am I? Muse on it further, I shall return! - David Walliams (Little Britain) -
David Wulff wrote: earth circuit for my mum's house was connected to a plastic water pipe. You are not serious! Are you? :sigh:
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'fraid so. :(
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: dwulffEverybody is entitled to my opinion
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In the literal sense. Well, I'm cleaning up/renovating/finishing my unfinished basement and reaalized I'm going to need to do some electrical work. Mostly just re-wiring, adding and removing some outlets and switches, possibly adding a circuit or two. I've done some electrical work, helped out with some more, watched electricians do some stuff, and feel that everything I need to do is within my skill level. The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected... to avoid code violations and stuff like that. Even though I can almost certainly get away without doing this, for my own peace of mind, or if I ever sell the place, I think I'll do things "by the book" and get my work inspected. I am strongly leaning towards doing the work myself, as opposed to having electricians do it. I've had mixed experiences with electricians... some do great work, others take shortcuts and don't follow code or don't get their work inspected... others do good work but not necessarily what I want (comminucation issues.) So... do you think I should do it myself? Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? Any battle stories (hopefully none as bad as some of the circular saw stories I've seen here... :~ ) or words of wisdom for your average software engineer about to take on a hardware job? :-D An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Unless the electrician is a personal friend or co-worker, definitely do it yourself. I just got through converting my garage to a large family room and adding a smaller 8'x10' room inside of that. Except for the concrete floor and texturing the walls (I tried but made a huge mess!), I did everything myself. I added and moved several switches and receptacles, which also meant adding and replacing lots of wire in the attic above the room. I also added four light fixtures with fan support. With things like this I tend to error on the side of caution (i.e., go real slow but do it right). In no uncertain terms would I purposely or accidentally jeopardize my house or my family. If I was the least bit concerned or had questions no matter how insignificant, I would have a professional do it or at least pose several questions to one.
"Opinions are neither right nor wrong. I cannot change your opinion. I can, however, change what influences your opinion." - David Crow
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David Wulff wrote: earth circuit for my mum's house was connected to a plastic water pipe. You are not serious! Are you? :sigh:
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That's amusing. :) All of the ground wires in my house either go back to the main panel (where they are shorted to the neutral wire, and connectd to a rod in the ground.) (Or, they're not there at all. Which is better than being there, but being wrong.) I've heard of connecting ground to the main cold water pipe, but only the main one, and only if it's metal. :rolleyes: An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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Unless the electrician is a personal friend or co-worker, definitely do it yourself. I just got through converting my garage to a large family room and adding a smaller 8'x10' room inside of that. Except for the concrete floor and texturing the walls (I tried but made a huge mess!), I did everything myself. I added and moved several switches and receptacles, which also meant adding and replacing lots of wire in the attic above the room. I also added four light fixtures with fan support. With things like this I tend to error on the side of caution (i.e., go real slow but do it right). In no uncertain terms would I purposely or accidentally jeopardize my house or my family. If I was the least bit concerned or had questions no matter how insignificant, I would have a professional do it or at least pose several questions to one.
"Opinions are neither right nor wrong. I cannot change your opinion. I can, however, change what influences your opinion." - David Crow
DavidCrow wrote: With things like this I tend to error on the side of caution (i.e., go real slow but do it right). In no uncertain terms would I purposely or accidentally jeopardize my house or my family. If I was the least bit concerned or had questions no matter how insignificant, I would have a professional do it or at least pose several questions to one. Absolutely... which is one of the reasons why, even thuogh I could probalby get away with not getting it inspected, I think I will anyway. My plan so far is that if I run across anything that I don't think I can do, then it's time to call in an electrician. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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In the literal sense. Well, I'm cleaning up/renovating/finishing my unfinished basement and reaalized I'm going to need to do some electrical work. Mostly just re-wiring, adding and removing some outlets and switches, possibly adding a circuit or two. I've done some electrical work, helped out with some more, watched electricians do some stuff, and feel that everything I need to do is within my skill level. The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected... to avoid code violations and stuff like that. Even though I can almost certainly get away without doing this, for my own peace of mind, or if I ever sell the place, I think I'll do things "by the book" and get my work inspected. I am strongly leaning towards doing the work myself, as opposed to having electricians do it. I've had mixed experiences with electricians... some do great work, others take shortcuts and don't follow code or don't get their work inspected... others do good work but not necessarily what I want (comminucation issues.) So... do you think I should do it myself? Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? Any battle stories (hopefully none as bad as some of the circular saw stories I've seen here... :~ ) or words of wisdom for your average software engineer about to take on a hardware job? :-D An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
My rule with electrical work, is DIY if it's your side of the main breaker box, but don't even think about it otherwise. And make double sure wires aren't live before using your teeth to strip them... but that's more a personal thing. Your situation sounds well within your abilities, so go for it! It wouldn't bother me buying a house, unless i saw that the work was sub-par... something i've seen in plenty of "professional" jobs too for that matter :( .
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
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David Wulff wrote: earth circuit for my mum's house was connected to a plastic water pipe. You are not serious! Are you? :sigh:
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You think that's bad? I helped my aunt tear down most of my grandparents house when she was renovating it. I kid you not, the electrical lines in the walls were STAPLED in place. A number of spots had severed the plastic coating. That house should have burned to the ground 50 years ago.:omg:
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
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I have a simple rule when it comes to this kind of thing, If it involves gas, electricty or water then I pay somebody to do it. Anything that when it goes wrong can either involve injury/death or major house damage, I leave to the professionals. At least then I have somebody to sue ;-) Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Michael P Butler wrote: If it involves gas, electricty or water then I pay somebody to do it. Anything that when it goes wrong can either involve injury/death or major house damage, I leave to the professionals. At least then I have somebody to sue Words of wisdom my man. We laugh at the so called "hobbiest" programmers and I shudder to think what a real professional electrician or plumber thinks of our handiwork. A few years back I decided to paint the entire interior of our home - figured it would take about two weekends of work. HA!! Took me 12 days to do it and then after looking at the mess for a few months we called a painter in. Took him and his assistant two days to redo the house and it looked wonderful. Live and learn. Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
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That's amusing. :) All of the ground wires in my house either go back to the main panel (where they are shorted to the neutral wire, and connectd to a rod in the ground.) (Or, they're not there at all. Which is better than being there, but being wrong.) I've heard of connecting ground to the main cold water pipe, but only the main one, and only if it's metal. :rolleyes: An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: where they are shorted to the neutral wire :confused: In a UK-style-wiring circuit breaker (RCD) protected system that would cause the breaker to trip! S
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My rule with electrical work, is DIY if it's your side of the main breaker box, but don't even think about it otherwise. And make double sure wires aren't live before using your teeth to strip them... but that's more a personal thing. Your situation sounds well within your abilities, so go for it! It wouldn't bother me buying a house, unless i saw that the work was sub-par... something i've seen in plenty of "professional" jobs too for that matter :( .
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
Yes, I'm not even considering working on anything before it goes through the main breaker... adding new circuits in the box is the current gray area... I know I can do it, but I'm still debating whether to just rough in some wiring, and get an electrician to actually hook it to the box. Or get some sub-panes installed.. Shog9 wrote: It wouldn't bother me buying a house, unless i saw that the work was sub-par... something i've seen in plenty of "professional" jobs too for that matter . No kidding. The current wiring in my house runs the gamut to pretty decent to downright unsafe... one electrician found a place where a live wire was frayed and the metal exposed.. it looked like whoever wired something else around it (cable wire I think?) damaged the electrical wire. I also had one infamous circuit that had the basement bathroom, the washer, the kitchen outlets (including the refrigerator), all on the SAME circuit. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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Navin wrote: where they are shorted to the neutral wire :confused: In a UK-style-wiring circuit breaker (RCD) protected system that would cause the breaker to trip! S
To clarify, I meant, they are shorted *inside* the main breaker box. I'm pretty sure the way they're supposed to be (and professionals did that part, anyway.) You're right though if they're shorted anywhere else, a breaker would likely trip. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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Navin wrote: The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected New law here in the UK states that you need to have a certified electrician add new circuits (spurs) etc. There are some exclusions. If you replace like for like you do not need to have it checked. i.e. if I was to replace a switch, pulg top or light fitting. However it does not stop you doing it yourself and have it certified by a certified electrician at a later date. I have recently bought a house in which I had the appropriate electrical checks done. Subsequent work was carried out by a certified electrician. I could have done the work myself but given that I had taken £130,000 in morgage £500 (including parts) was a drop in the ocean to have all the work done. Ant. I'm hard, yet soft.
I'm coloured, yet clear.
I'm fruity and sweet.
I'm jelly, what am I? Muse on it further, I shall return! - David Walliams (Little Britain)Antony M Kancidrowski wrote: New law here in the UK states that you need to have a certified electrician add new circuits (spurs) etc. There are some exclusions. That's correct. It's called "Part P": http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/partpindex.html[^] We're indirectly involved in electrical installation, as an OEM of lighting and smart-home control equipment, (see www.evolutioncontrols.com[^]) General feedback from "the sparks" working in sites is that it's a good thing. General feedback from all other trades (kitchen fitters, plumbers etc.) is that it's a very bad thing! S
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Yes, I'm not even considering working on anything before it goes through the main breaker... adding new circuits in the box is the current gray area... I know I can do it, but I'm still debating whether to just rough in some wiring, and get an electrician to actually hook it to the box. Or get some sub-panes installed.. Shog9 wrote: It wouldn't bother me buying a house, unless i saw that the work was sub-par... something i've seen in plenty of "professional" jobs too for that matter . No kidding. The current wiring in my house runs the gamut to pretty decent to downright unsafe... one electrician found a place where a live wire was frayed and the metal exposed.. it looked like whoever wired something else around it (cable wire I think?) damaged the electrical wire. I also had one infamous circuit that had the basement bathroom, the washer, the kitchen outlets (including the refrigerator), all on the SAME circuit. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: I'm still debating whether to just rough in some wiring, and get an electrician to actually hook it to the box. I would do this. It's usually not terribly hard to add a new circuit to the box (an exception being those really old boxes with fuses and a rat's nest of cloth-covered cables... the sort that might start smoking if you look at them too hard), but if you're gonna have a guy there to look it over anyway, you might as well have him do the hookup too.
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
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Navin wrote: I'm still debating whether to just rough in some wiring, and get an electrician to actually hook it to the box. I would do this. It's usually not terribly hard to add a new circuit to the box (an exception being those really old boxes with fuses and a rat's nest of cloth-covered cables... the sort that might start smoking if you look at them too hard), but if you're gonna have a guy there to look it over anyway, you might as well have him do the hookup too.
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
YEah. Well, that's the thing... it's unclear to me whether the inspectors can actually do work, or if they just give you a nice green sticker saying you're good to go, or say you have to change something before they'll pass you. These are good questions for me to ask when talking to them. ;) An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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To clarify, I meant, they are shorted *inside* the main breaker box. I'm pretty sure the way they're supposed to be (and professionals did that part, anyway.) You're right though if they're shorted anywhere else, a breaker would likely trip. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: they are shorted *inside* the main breaker box. That is required, according to the NEC. The building neutral must be bonded to earth ground at the service entrance, and earth ground bonded to a nearby 1/2" to 5/8" diameter copper clad ground rod driven into the ground. Any sub-panels derived from the main box must not have their respective neutrals bonded to the ground busbar, as this creates ground loop problems and can cause ground fault circuit interrupters to misfire, or fail to fire. A water pipe, while certainly a possible substitute, is not a legal ground in most areas. "If it's Snowbird season, why can't we shoot them?" - Overheard in a bar in Bullhead City
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In the literal sense. Well, I'm cleaning up/renovating/finishing my unfinished basement and reaalized I'm going to need to do some electrical work. Mostly just re-wiring, adding and removing some outlets and switches, possibly adding a circuit or two. I've done some electrical work, helped out with some more, watched electricians do some stuff, and feel that everything I need to do is within my skill level. The city ordinances here specify that even if I do work on my own house, I am supposed to get a permit, and then get it inspected... to avoid code violations and stuff like that. Even though I can almost certainly get away without doing this, for my own peace of mind, or if I ever sell the place, I think I'll do things "by the book" and get my work inspected. I am strongly leaning towards doing the work myself, as opposed to having electricians do it. I've had mixed experiences with electricians... some do great work, others take shortcuts and don't follow code or don't get their work inspected... others do good work but not necessarily what I want (comminucation issues.) So... do you think I should do it myself? Put another way... suppose you were living, or about to buy, a house, and found out a lot of electrical work was done by a do-it-yourselfer.. but did pass all inspections. Would that make any difference? Any battle stories (hopefully none as bad as some of the circular saw stories I've seen here... :~ ) or words of wisdom for your average software engineer about to take on a hardware job? :-D An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
DIY wiring isn't hard, but it's easy to run astray of the code if you're not used to it. A few things to watch out for include: too many wires in a junction box; too many wires in a conduit (you're allowed 20% fill); inadequate support of wire runs (must be supported at 4-1/2' intervals); improper distribution of branch circuits (lighting fixtures included on branches for fixed kitchen appliances, etc). Buy a copy of the code, or a book on basic residential wiring, and save yourself a lot of headaches. It's fun, and perfectly acceptable to roll your own.:-D "If it's Snowbird season, why can't we shoot them?" - Overheard in a bar in Bullhead City