Productivity -- questioned
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Dear CPians, I have been developing web applications for around 6 years now. I started using classic ASP, and after these solid years of development I can say with confidence that I can do anyhting with ASP. I believe that there isn't something that cannot be done with classic ASP. It might be less efficient than in ASP.NET but there point is that there is always a solution for classic ASP. Two years ago, I started developing in ASP.NET with c#. Initially I thought that this is a great platform to develop on and I still enjoy it!. Apart from the OO features that classic ASP lacks, the environment is fun. I admit that there is alot of space for improvement of my skills on the Framework. One of the main advantages of the DOT NET FRAMEWORK (according to Microsoft) is that it boosts productivity. Now, I have developed a number of applications and web sites with the two platforms, and I would like to make a few questions to you all. 1) Has your productivity and development efficiency been boosted at all by switching to ASP.NET? In other words, would you build a web site faster with ASP.NET or with ASP? 2) Do you feel that you have full control of what is happening behind the scenes? 3) Do you think that Web Forms are stable and robust? 4) Do you feel that that code-behind has truly divided the work of the web developer and the web designer? To prevent any flaming - I am just asking, I am not saying that one platform is better than the other. I am just stating a few questions to you. In addition, I quess that these questions are more targeted to those who have spent a few years of development with ASP and switched to ASP.NET. All opinions are welcomed! Thanking you in advance for any feedback you might provide! theJazzyBrain
Excellence is not an act, but a habit!
Aristotle
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Dear CPians, I have been developing web applications for around 6 years now. I started using classic ASP, and after these solid years of development I can say with confidence that I can do anyhting with ASP. I believe that there isn't something that cannot be done with classic ASP. It might be less efficient than in ASP.NET but there point is that there is always a solution for classic ASP. Two years ago, I started developing in ASP.NET with c#. Initially I thought that this is a great platform to develop on and I still enjoy it!. Apart from the OO features that classic ASP lacks, the environment is fun. I admit that there is alot of space for improvement of my skills on the Framework. One of the main advantages of the DOT NET FRAMEWORK (according to Microsoft) is that it boosts productivity. Now, I have developed a number of applications and web sites with the two platforms, and I would like to make a few questions to you all. 1) Has your productivity and development efficiency been boosted at all by switching to ASP.NET? In other words, would you build a web site faster with ASP.NET or with ASP? 2) Do you feel that you have full control of what is happening behind the scenes? 3) Do you think that Web Forms are stable and robust? 4) Do you feel that that code-behind has truly divided the work of the web developer and the web designer? To prevent any flaming - I am just asking, I am not saying that one platform is better than the other. I am just stating a few questions to you. In addition, I quess that these questions are more targeted to those who have spent a few years of development with ASP and switched to ASP.NET. All opinions are welcomed! Thanking you in advance for any feedback you might provide! theJazzyBrain
Excellence is not an act, but a habit!
Aristotle
theJazzyBrain wrote: 1) Has your productivity and development efficiency been boosted at all by switching to ASP.NET? In other words, would you build a web site faster with ASP.NET or with ASP? Since I switched from PHP, answer is definitely yes. More importantly, you can VERY easily use code from your library or win application (in .NET language, slightly less easily with COM things) - that means you can have lot's of company-shared libs.. that's col isn't it? Not to mention .NET Framework itself... It obviously boost your productivity (when you have at least basic orientation in framwork classes). theJazzyBrain wrote: 2) Do you feel that you have full control of what is happening behind the scenes? hmm. Maybe I'd have full control if I wasn't lazy to learn more ... I think I quite understand what's going on, but I am awared that I don't know a lot about Factory classes etc. It's on TODO list ;) Good think is that you can do dummy point n' click development as well as C/C++ish "hardcore" things... (well, maybe except memory magic - but that's bonus point!) theJazzyBrain wrote: 3) Do you think that Web Forms are stable and robust? I think yes. theJazzyBrain wrote: 4) Do you feel that that code-behind has truly divided the work of the web developer and the web designer? it depends, for example my site is rendered by my own "engine", so I have lot of markup etc. in code... but that's somehow extreme case. Generaly I'd say yes, it does divide work of developer and designer, and it does much better than anything else I know... Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
theJazzyBrain wrote: 1) Has your productivity and development efficiency been boosted at all by switching to ASP.NET? In other words, would you build a web site faster with ASP.NET or with ASP? Since I switched from PHP, answer is definitely yes. More importantly, you can VERY easily use code from your library or win application (in .NET language, slightly less easily with COM things) - that means you can have lot's of company-shared libs.. that's col isn't it? Not to mention .NET Framework itself... It obviously boost your productivity (when you have at least basic orientation in framwork classes). theJazzyBrain wrote: 2) Do you feel that you have full control of what is happening behind the scenes? hmm. Maybe I'd have full control if I wasn't lazy to learn more ... I think I quite understand what's going on, but I am awared that I don't know a lot about Factory classes etc. It's on TODO list ;) Good think is that you can do dummy point n' click development as well as C/C++ish "hardcore" things... (well, maybe except memory magic - but that's bonus point!) theJazzyBrain wrote: 3) Do you think that Web Forms are stable and robust? I think yes. theJazzyBrain wrote: 4) Do you feel that that code-behind has truly divided the work of the web developer and the web designer? it depends, for example my site is rendered by my own "engine", so I have lot of markup etc. in code... but that's somehow extreme case. Generaly I'd say yes, it does divide work of developer and designer, and it does much better than anything else I know... Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidydnh wrote: More importantly, you can VERY easily use code from your library or win application I agree, but couldn't you do the same thing with ASP or PHP? I mean, especially for PHP there a thousands of free ready to use functions and classes which I am sure you have used in the past. You can still have you shared libs of scripts and funcations. dnh wrote: Not to mention .NET Framework itself... It obviously boost your productivity (when you have at least basic orientation in framwork classes). Yes, so sais Microsoft. But what happens when it comes to implimentation? How does it achieve it? dnh wrote: hmm. Maybe I'd have full control if I wasn't lazy to learn more Ok, I agree. I am still learning too, but the point is that with ASP I still feel more confident about what is going on. The Page Life Cycle, the code-behind and the ONE FORM TAG thing scares me! dnh wrote: Good think is that you can do dummy point n' click development I agree that such a thing exists. But, be honest! have you really delivered a project to a customer that was developed with the POINT n'CLICK method? dnh wrote: for example my site is rendered by my own "engine", Yes, experienced web developers usually have their own template-engine to mantain consistency. The same can be done pretty nicelly with Dot Net. In my case, the designers that I work with have knowledge of Photoshop and some HTML. When they see all these ASP.NET tags and user control tags they get confused. As a result I do the slicing of the PSD.:P dnh wrote: Generaly I'd say yes, it does divide work of developer and designer, and it does much better than anything else I know... Check Cold Fusion MX. I would say that they are doing an even better job than Microsoft in separating server code from design code. But even if ASP.NET does the best job around, my opinion is that its still not good enough. Thanx for your feedback. :P:P theJazzyBrain
Excellence is not an act, but a habit!
Aristotle
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dnh wrote: More importantly, you can VERY easily use code from your library or win application I agree, but couldn't you do the same thing with ASP or PHP? I mean, especially for PHP there a thousands of free ready to use functions and classes which I am sure you have used in the past. You can still have you shared libs of scripts and funcations. dnh wrote: Not to mention .NET Framework itself... It obviously boost your productivity (when you have at least basic orientation in framwork classes). Yes, so sais Microsoft. But what happens when it comes to implimentation? How does it achieve it? dnh wrote: hmm. Maybe I'd have full control if I wasn't lazy to learn more Ok, I agree. I am still learning too, but the point is that with ASP I still feel more confident about what is going on. The Page Life Cycle, the code-behind and the ONE FORM TAG thing scares me! dnh wrote: Good think is that you can do dummy point n' click development I agree that such a thing exists. But, be honest! have you really delivered a project to a customer that was developed with the POINT n'CLICK method? dnh wrote: for example my site is rendered by my own "engine", Yes, experienced web developers usually have their own template-engine to mantain consistency. The same can be done pretty nicelly with Dot Net. In my case, the designers that I work with have knowledge of Photoshop and some HTML. When they see all these ASP.NET tags and user control tags they get confused. As a result I do the slicing of the PSD.:P dnh wrote: Generaly I'd say yes, it does divide work of developer and designer, and it does much better than anything else I know... Check Cold Fusion MX. I would say that they are doing an even better job than Microsoft in separating server code from design code. But even if ASP.NET does the best job around, my opinion is that its still not good enough. Thanx for your feedback. :P:P theJazzyBrain
Excellence is not an act, but a habit!
Aristotle
theJazzyBrain wrote: I agree, but couldn't you do the same thing with ASP or PHP? I mean, especially for PHP there a thousands of free ready to use functions and classes which I am sure you have used in the past. You can still have you shared libs of scripts and funcations. I've even seen using .NET objects from PHP... sorry, but I think PHP is trash. Or better, it's doing its job (Personal Home Page), but it's NOT good for bigger projects (my own exps). For milion reasons. theJazzyBrain wrote: Yes, so sais Microsoft. But what happens when it comes to implimentation? How does it achieve it? I enjoy ease of WebControls, XmlDocuments etc almost every day :) To name my favourites. theJazzyBrain wrote: but the point is that with ASP I still feel more confident about what is going on. The Page Life Cycle, the code-behind and the ONE FORM TAG thing scares me! yeahm, Page life cycle is quite mysterious :) But again, 90% of things I am uncertain with is because I don't need to know... and don't have time to study it :(( btw, check out Rotor[^] It's a must-read for .NET gurus :) It gives great insight to Framework... again, one more thing in my TODO list :sigh: What's wrong with codebehind? (except it will slightly change with partial classes in 2.0). As for one form... hmmm... I don't know... theJazzyBrain wrote: have you really delivered a project to a customer that was developed with the POINT n'CLICK method? no. But if HTML designer (VS.NET tool, not person) wasn't so evil I'd use it for building UI... I must admin I don't know how is it with Drag&drop designing in other platforms/IDEs, but IF designer produced better markup I'd love to do more UI with it (basics ofcourse, rest is webdesigner's job). theJazzyBrain wrote: experienced web developers and maniacs too. I don't consider myself "experienced web developer" after like 2.5 years of exps... (one year with PHP, rest ASP.NET) theJazzyBrain wrote: When they see all these ASP.NET tags and user control tags they get confused What's confusing about it? Basic idea is t
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theJazzyBrain wrote: I agree, but couldn't you do the same thing with ASP or PHP? I mean, especially for PHP there a thousands of free ready to use functions and classes which I am sure you have used in the past. You can still have you shared libs of scripts and funcations. I've even seen using .NET objects from PHP... sorry, but I think PHP is trash. Or better, it's doing its job (Personal Home Page), but it's NOT good for bigger projects (my own exps). For milion reasons. theJazzyBrain wrote: Yes, so sais Microsoft. But what happens when it comes to implimentation? How does it achieve it? I enjoy ease of WebControls, XmlDocuments etc almost every day :) To name my favourites. theJazzyBrain wrote: but the point is that with ASP I still feel more confident about what is going on. The Page Life Cycle, the code-behind and the ONE FORM TAG thing scares me! yeahm, Page life cycle is quite mysterious :) But again, 90% of things I am uncertain with is because I don't need to know... and don't have time to study it :(( btw, check out Rotor[^] It's a must-read for .NET gurus :) It gives great insight to Framework... again, one more thing in my TODO list :sigh: What's wrong with codebehind? (except it will slightly change with partial classes in 2.0). As for one form... hmmm... I don't know... theJazzyBrain wrote: have you really delivered a project to a customer that was developed with the POINT n'CLICK method? no. But if HTML designer (VS.NET tool, not person) wasn't so evil I'd use it for building UI... I must admin I don't know how is it with Drag&drop designing in other platforms/IDEs, but IF designer produced better markup I'd love to do more UI with it (basics ofcourse, rest is webdesigner's job). theJazzyBrain wrote: experienced web developers and maniacs too. I don't consider myself "experienced web developer" after like 2.5 years of exps... (one year with PHP, rest ASP.NET) theJazzyBrain wrote: When they see all these ASP.NET tags and user control tags they get confused What's confusing about it? Basic idea is t
dnh wrote: I've even seen using .NET objects from PHP... sorry, but I think PHP is trash. Or better, it's doing its job (Personal Home Page), but it's NOT good for bigger projects (my own exps). For milion reasons. Ok, but you are not answering to my point. Couldn't you have a lib of functions and classes that are reusable either with PHP or ASP just the same way you do with ASP.NET? Ok they are not Class Libraries but they are still a set of reusable functions. And mind you, there are alot more out there available in ASP or PHP than in ASP.NET. dnh wrote: I enjoy ease of WebControls, XmlDocuments etc almost every day To name my favourites. I must admit that support for XML is almost a foreign concept in classic ASP. You can still use it throught XMLHTTP object etc... but trully it cannot be compared to the XML support within DOT NET. I totally agree with that. As for the web controls, I am still not very sure about it. dnh wrote: What's wrong with codebehind? (except it will slightly change with partial classes in 2.0). See, there is something wrong about it, otherwise MS wouldn't change it back to a single file in Framework 2.0. It is a good concept but I thing that the implimentation of it is not as good. It looks a bit cluttered. It just doesn't feel good to me. dnh wrote: As for one form... hmmm... I don't know... Yes, I dont know either. Why do it like that? And what if I dont want a damn form in my page? Why do I need to travel through javascript just to click on a simple link? Why do I need to write special javascript to make sure that when you press on the ENTER key the correct POSTBACK event source it triggered. And all that for what? for beeing able to, as you mentioned if HTML designer (VS.NET tool, not person) wasn't so evil, do nothing at the end... I gain nothing from all this. It only causes a problems. One would say, ok but you can dynamically create a textbox. Ok so you can do with ASP and PHP. Just do a response.write("<input type=""text"" name=""myTextBox"" value=""myValue"">>") dnh wrote: no. (for the click n' drag method of development) See, its a so much advertised feature, which is actually never used. To be honest, I have never seen anyone delivering a project to a customer by using this method of development. Never. dnh wrote: I don't consider myself "experienced web developer" aft