There's something SO wrong.......
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I don't know what anyone on this thread is complaining about - when government officals receive medals for massive screwups and refuse to accept responsibility for the mistakes they make, why should we hold children accountable for their actions? If you were all so zealous about correcting the activities of adults the children would have examples to follow and wouldn't require beatings.
Well, I have, at the relatively young age of a week over 22, lost hope in the current generation and believe it is screwed up beyond repair. :| I think only the next generation can be put on the right path. Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." David Wulff to me.
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Baconbutty wrote: We are now wanting to PAY kids for behaving! Am I just getting old or is the world going stark raving mad? Not just getting old - I'm 21 and had the exact same reaction to this :). -- Andrew.
I'm four months older than you and share the same reaction. :) Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." David Wulff to me.
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I'm still in shock after reading your post. Something like that can (or perpaps, should) never happen in my country. No offense intended, but where* do you see your country 40 years from now? * Apart from continental drift, that is. :-D Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." David Wulff to me.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: ...where* do you see your country 40 years from now? I'm scared to think about it. All I can do is to make sure that I and my family are good role models and provide a positive image to those we interact with. My children know right from wrong, and show respect to others. They know what it is like to be punished for disobeying and not following the rules. Expectations are high in my house. No they are not always met, but if you shoot high and miss, and least you'll be above average. My goal is for them to be at least as smart as their mother and I. That may sound kind of cheesy, but it's not uncommon for some parents to hold their kid(s) back for fear of them becoming better than the rest of the family. It's called being insecure.
"As for me and my house, we will worship the Lord." - Joshua 24:15
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WTF? :wtf: So what happens when a kid is abysmally bad at school? Is he given a passing grade and promoted nevertheless? :wtf: Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." David Wulff to me.
The way it was explained to me here (USA) is that kids who fail three times are finally passed since you don't want an 18 year-old kid in high school among the 15 and 16 year-old girls, and vice-versa. However, just because s/he was eventually allowed to "graduate" high school does not mean s/he'll be off to college. Also, I sincerely doubt that the number of forced graduates are that high to make a difference. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS
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My mother taught school her entire career (40+ years); she left about a year ago. She became so fed-up with the public school system and how it was handling kids, she actually retired because of it ... Some things she's told me over the years: 1. No more red pens; because of the terrible impact on a child's psyche ... 2. School's are purely money driven. The get more state funds for special ed. kids than "normal" kids, so they are trying to push all kids to special ed (hence the big ritalin scam in the 80's-90's) 3. She was told at one point that she could fail NO ONE. 4. When teaching summer school, she was told "If they show up, pass them" 5. To deal with a "problem student" they would transfer the kid from one class to another, they were not allowed to expel them. 6. My mother was once written up for putting a student in detention, because he kept interrupting the class, arguing with another boy. My mother was not at fault, mind you, the kid should have been expelled, my Mother was written up because the PARENTS of the boy threatened to file a suit against the school, and said that their child would never do any such thing as they said he did; despite the entire class complaining about him ... -- When I was in school -- 1. Your paper was graded with a red pen. That's the color the teacher used, no one else. Period. Get over it. It's a freak'in color. If you got 100%, it was written in red, if a got a ZERO, it was written in red. Big deal. I'm not mental because of it. 2. The public school system has needed better management of funds and money for decades. The SOB's at the top are pulling in 6 figure salaries, while the teacher's are just making ends meet. The texts used are out dated, and the facilities are either run down, or the new facilities cost millions to build and aren't worth it. Greed runs most everything now. 3. If you didn't pass the tests, you failed. Duh. If you didn't pass the class, you stayed back. Tell a kid they can never fail, I'm guessing they won't be doing the work. Fear of failure is good motivation. 4. Summer school used to be "Do your work, or your staying back"; and it wasn't easy because it was everything you SHOULD have done that year, crammed into like 2 months. 5. To deal with a "problem student", one of my teacher's (wood shop), used to throw a block of wood at the person. From across the room. At their head. No, I'm NOT kidding. No one ever messed around in that class. Everyone passed. Everyone learned. Only two people were injured
This is the result IMHO of education trying to be made a profit center instead of a well funded cost center that invests in the future of a country. Add into that the sue-everything-that-moves-that-I-don't-like mentality of America today and welcome to the dumb and dumber show. Very very very sad. :sigh:
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4687203.stm[^] We are now wanting to PAY kids for behaving! Am I just getting old or is the world going stark raving mad? And what's more, I just heard on the radio that it's been suggested that children are no longer told that they have failed at a subject - but they have "achieved deferred success". Kid sister rules prevent me from expressing my feelings about this hippy nonsense! I still remember having to write your own code in FORTRAN rather than be a cut and paste merchant being pampered by colour coded Intellisense - ahh proper programming - those were the days :)
Yes. My wife is a teacher, and she and her colleagues call this generation the "Generation of Expectations" because they expect everything to be given to them without having to work for it. <insufferable old grump>I say, bring back spanking in schools!</insufferable old grump>
Jon Sagara I said NO salt, NO salt on my margarita!!
My Articles -
David Wulff wrote: Get rid of this "we can't hurt their feelings" crap. These kids are going to fail at life with such an upbringing. Well said. :) David Wulff wrote: Teach kids about respect. Especially for themselves. Well said again. :) David Wulff wrote: Ban telvision and magazines. Well said yet again. :) David Wulff wrote: Bring back corporal punishment. Put the really disruptive little darlings in a cage for up to the remainder of the day. Well said... hey, wait a minute! Corporal punishment? No way! :mad: I've seen it happen at my school and it's terrible! I've seen sadist teachers who slapped 'stupid' kids and beat them up. I've never been thrashed by a teacher, but it's terrible to just see. If teachers start beating up kids, they will be no different from the school bully. And in my not-so-humble opinion, the ends DON'T justify the means. :mad: Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
Corporal punishment, to me, means getting a spanking with a (menacing looking) board on your butt. Nothing brutal is implied. Some boards were tapered, some had holes, they all had handles. I think I only received one spanking from a female teacher, the rest were from males. Most of the females would go next door or to the principal's office and ask a male teacher for assistance. In my case, it was very effective as I never received a spanking for the same incident twice. I also had respect for the teachers even after they had punished me.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
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I find the current US school system shocking from what I've seen in this thread. :omg: Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." David Wulff to me.
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David Wulff wrote: - Provide propper leisure activities for kids. Speaking of such, some school systems are doing away with their Physical Education (P.E.) programs because some kids were getting embarrassed that they couldn't do well (e.g., run, climb rope, throw a ball, push-ups).
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
DavidCrow wrote: Speaking of such, some school systems are doing away with their Physical Education (P.E.) programs because some kids were getting embarrassed that they couldn't do well (e.g., run, climb rope, throw a ball, push-ups). *sigh* That is not why. It is because of funding, pure and simple. PE grades aren't something that standardized testing measures. Standardized tests are tied to funding (frequently in ways that further punish underperforming schools -- great logic there), so PE gets the axe when things get tight. As do music and theater departments. I wish there was a term for those who think that being "PC" is to blame for everything that goes wrong.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4687203.stm[^] We are now wanting to PAY kids for behaving! Am I just getting old or is the world going stark raving mad? And what's more, I just heard on the radio that it's been suggested that children are no longer told that they have failed at a subject - but they have "achieved deferred success". Kid sister rules prevent me from expressing my feelings about this hippy nonsense! I still remember having to write your own code in FORTRAN rather than be a cut and paste merchant being pampered by colour coded Intellisense - ahh proper programming - those were the days :)
Am I wrong to think that it's the parents responsibility to deal with most of this at home so that teachers can do what they are paid to do? Which in my book is teach. This is a parent issue. Parents are not establishing responsibility in the home and schools tried to. Then parents started suing schools (sometimes for good reason) so now schools are at this point. This is not a reason for widespread panic folks. It's a reason to do the following: 1. Sit the whole family down at night for dinner around the table. Talk, have fun, listen to your kids. 2. After dinner dads/moms clear off the table and help with homework. 3. Dads/moms, take time off work to go to teacher conferences. Find out from teachers where your help is needed and then help. 4. Dads/moms, I know you want to be rich and you have to keep up with the Jackies down the street but take some time off work to go to plays, sports events, play catch. !-- SPEND TIME WITH KIDS --! 5. Dads/moms, talk to kids about school. Make it exciting. Inspire math and science. Inspire greatness. 6. Establish discipline in the home so the world doesn't have to. Teachers, police, etc... don't have time to teach your kids how to behave. That's your job (mom/dad) so get off your butts and do it. This is not a reason for widespread panic or dismay. It is not any schools job to do what should be done in the home. The biggest problem in America today is that parents have lost touch with their kids because they are too busy trying to make a mighty buck. Do it the way your parents did it, do it how their parents did it. Get involved. It's pretty simple folks and their is no secret here. It's how America was built and it's what made us great. GET INVOLVED IN YOUR KIDS LIVES AND THIS WILL BE A NON-EVENT FOR YOU! - Rex
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
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My mother taught school her entire career (40+ years); she left about a year ago. She became so fed-up with the public school system and how it was handling kids, she actually retired because of it ... Some things she's told me over the years: 1. No more red pens; because of the terrible impact on a child's psyche ... 2. School's are purely money driven. The get more state funds for special ed. kids than "normal" kids, so they are trying to push all kids to special ed (hence the big ritalin scam in the 80's-90's) 3. She was told at one point that she could fail NO ONE. 4. When teaching summer school, she was told "If they show up, pass them" 5. To deal with a "problem student" they would transfer the kid from one class to another, they were not allowed to expel them. 6. My mother was once written up for putting a student in detention, because he kept interrupting the class, arguing with another boy. My mother was not at fault, mind you, the kid should have been expelled, my Mother was written up because the PARENTS of the boy threatened to file a suit against the school, and said that their child would never do any such thing as they said he did; despite the entire class complaining about him ... -- When I was in school -- 1. Your paper was graded with a red pen. That's the color the teacher used, no one else. Period. Get over it. It's a freak'in color. If you got 100%, it was written in red, if a got a ZERO, it was written in red. Big deal. I'm not mental because of it. 2. The public school system has needed better management of funds and money for decades. The SOB's at the top are pulling in 6 figure salaries, while the teacher's are just making ends meet. The texts used are out dated, and the facilities are either run down, or the new facilities cost millions to build and aren't worth it. Greed runs most everything now. 3. If you didn't pass the tests, you failed. Duh. If you didn't pass the class, you stayed back. Tell a kid they can never fail, I'm guessing they won't be doing the work. Fear of failure is good motivation. 4. Summer school used to be "Do your work, or your staying back"; and it wasn't easy because it was everything you SHOULD have done that year, crammed into like 2 months. 5. To deal with a "problem student", one of my teacher's (wood shop), used to throw a block of wood at the person. From across the room. At their head. No, I'm NOT kidding. No one ever messed around in that class. Everyone passed. Everyone learned. Only two people were injured
Douglas Troy wrote: The public school system is a JOKE ... anyone that says different doesn't really understand just how bad it really has become. In all fairness, the vast majority of teachers (like your mother) are doing it for the right reason. They get great enjoyment from taking a kid from point A to point B in his/her life. The problem is not with the teachers, but they unfortunately receive a good amount of the blame because they have the most interaction with the children.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
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David Wulff wrote: Kids don't see it as a violent meaingless act, they see it as a punishment. At a young age, no, they don't. But when you're into adolescence, and you're still being hit by teachers, the humiliation can be severe. Thank goodness it's not easy to get guns in India or we'd have school shootings everyday. :shudder: Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." David Wulff to me.
I strongly disagree. In the situations you are hinting at it is not the system that's at fault, it's the kids who are fucked up far beyond anything corporal punishment could change. You honestly think school shootings are due to kids being punished? It's kids that make kids shoot kids - lack of discipline and respect breeds itself. The point behind corporal punishment in schools is humiliation. That is the only thing that will prevent a determined kid from misbehaving. The violence is not an issue. Indeed, if you asked most kids who've received it I'm sure the common answer would be that they would have prefered to have received a hell of a lot more pain if only it was done in private. The reason corporal punishment works, whether it is in schools, the military, or wherever, is because it teaches people very quickly that their actions have real consequences. It is straigtforward association, and it works perfectly and with far less damage to the individual than other methods will leave.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (QT)
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Am I wrong to think that it's the parents responsibility to deal with most of this at home so that teachers can do what they are paid to do? Which in my book is teach. This is a parent issue. Parents are not establishing responsibility in the home and schools tried to. Then parents started suing schools (sometimes for good reason) so now schools are at this point. This is not a reason for widespread panic folks. It's a reason to do the following: 1. Sit the whole family down at night for dinner around the table. Talk, have fun, listen to your kids. 2. After dinner dads/moms clear off the table and help with homework. 3. Dads/moms, take time off work to go to teacher conferences. Find out from teachers where your help is needed and then help. 4. Dads/moms, I know you want to be rich and you have to keep up with the Jackies down the street but take some time off work to go to plays, sports events, play catch. !-- SPEND TIME WITH KIDS --! 5. Dads/moms, talk to kids about school. Make it exciting. Inspire math and science. Inspire greatness. 6. Establish discipline in the home so the world doesn't have to. Teachers, police, etc... don't have time to teach your kids how to behave. That's your job (mom/dad) so get off your butts and do it. This is not a reason for widespread panic or dismay. It is not any schools job to do what should be done in the home. The biggest problem in America today is that parents have lost touch with their kids because they are too busy trying to make a mighty buck. Do it the way your parents did it, do it how their parents did it. Get involved. It's pretty simple folks and their is no secret here. It's how America was built and it's what made us great. GET INVOLVED IN YOUR KIDS LIVES AND THIS WILL BE A NON-EVENT FOR YOU! - Rex
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
That's great and all, but a kid should still make a failing grade if he/she deserves it. Jeremy Falcon
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4687203.stm[^] We are now wanting to PAY kids for behaving! Am I just getting old or is the world going stark raving mad? And what's more, I just heard on the radio that it's been suggested that children are no longer told that they have failed at a subject - but they have "achieved deferred success". Kid sister rules prevent me from expressing my feelings about this hippy nonsense! I still remember having to write your own code in FORTRAN rather than be a cut and paste merchant being pampered by colour coded Intellisense - ahh proper programming - those were the days :)
"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards." - Mark Twain Jeremy Falcon
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DavidCrow wrote: Speaking of such, some school systems are doing away with their Physical Education (P.E.) programs because some kids were getting embarrassed that they couldn't do well (e.g., run, climb rope, throw a ball, push-ups). *sigh* That is not why. It is because of funding, pure and simple. PE grades aren't something that standardized testing measures. Standardized tests are tied to funding (frequently in ways that further punish underperforming schools -- great logic there), so PE gets the axe when things get tight. As do music and theater departments. I wish there was a term for those who think that being "PC" is to blame for everything that goes wrong.
David Kentley wrote: *sigh* That is not why. It is because of funding, pure and simple. Speaking from experience, embarrassment as well as lack of funds, is the reason. Unless you have actually spent years in the system, rather than just observing from the outside, it's hard to know all of the reasons.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: ...where* do you see your country 40 years from now? I'm scared to think about it. All I can do is to make sure that I and my family are good role models and provide a positive image to those we interact with. My children know right from wrong, and show respect to others. They know what it is like to be punished for disobeying and not following the rules. Expectations are high in my house. No they are not always met, but if you shoot high and miss, and least you'll be above average. My goal is for them to be at least as smart as their mother and I. That may sound kind of cheesy, but it's not uncommon for some parents to hold their kid(s) back for fear of them becoming better than the rest of the family. It's called being insecure.
"As for me and my house, we will worship the Lord." - Joshua 24:15
DavidCrow wrote: That may sound kind of cheesy, but it's not uncommon for some parents to hold their kid(s) back for fear of them becoming better than the rest of the family My god. If ever there is a case for social services to remove a child from a family that is one of the strongest ones. :omg:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (QT)
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Douglas Troy wrote: The public school system is a JOKE ... anyone that says different doesn't really understand just how bad it really has become. In all fairness, the vast majority of teachers (like your mother) are doing it for the right reason. They get great enjoyment from taking a kid from point A to point B in his/her life. The problem is not with the teachers, but they unfortunately receive a good amount of the blame because they have the most interaction with the children.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
David, I totally agree and never indicated that Teacher's are to blame what-so-ever. They are without control in the matter. My Mother personally tried and tried to get the system to change, and spoke at length with the board of education in her state, until they told her to "let it go" or "leave her job". No, it's not the teacher's that have lost the "vision" of what education is about, it's the people that manage that system that have only the vision of greed and of themselves. There's hope: Private schools, Home Schools and Charter Schools ... these are people trying their hardest to protect their kids and take back control of a system gone awry.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
That's great and all, but a kid should still make a failing grade if he/she deserves it. Jeremy Falcon
In my house the school could call it an F, or "Pink Roses" the meaning is the same. You didn't do the work so you don't get the credit. Who cares if the call it a green star. The mom's and dad's take care of the problem because they know what it really means. Are you a parent yet? If not someday you will know what I mean. If you ever take that road. I don't care what they call it and I don't care what it means to the world. In my home I will know what it means and so will my kids.
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
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While I can appreciate your disdain for said managers, the result of what Vikram was referring to are those types you see flipping burgers as an adult, sweeping streets, mowing easements for the city's public works department, emptying trash, athletes that can run the 40-yard dash in four seconds but can't multiply two numbers in their head (and sometimes on paper), etc. While they may make decisions that do not please everyone, managers are an educated bunch. Yes, there are sometimes smarter people that work for these managers, but that is beside the point.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
actually if everybody is educated and smart enough that they won't have to do the jobs like flipping burgers and sweeping streets, who would? besides I am not countering the original point vikram made. ankita
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I don't know what anyone on this thread is complaining about - when government officals receive medals for massive screwups and refuse to accept responsibility for the mistakes they make, why should we hold children accountable for their actions? If you were all so zealous about correcting the activities of adults the children would have examples to follow and wouldn't require beatings.
Some people just have to inject politics into every discussion...:zzz: Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer