There's something SO wrong.......
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David Wulff wrote: Kids don't see it as a violent meaingless act, they see it as a punishment. At a young age, no, they don't. But when you're into adolescence, and you're still being hit by teachers, the humiliation can be severe. Thank goodness it's not easy to get guns in India or we'd have school shootings everyday. :shudder: Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." David Wulff to me.
I strongly disagree. In the situations you are hinting at it is not the system that's at fault, it's the kids who are fucked up far beyond anything corporal punishment could change. You honestly think school shootings are due to kids being punished? It's kids that make kids shoot kids - lack of discipline and respect breeds itself. The point behind corporal punishment in schools is humiliation. That is the only thing that will prevent a determined kid from misbehaving. The violence is not an issue. Indeed, if you asked most kids who've received it I'm sure the common answer would be that they would have prefered to have received a hell of a lot more pain if only it was done in private. The reason corporal punishment works, whether it is in schools, the military, or wherever, is because it teaches people very quickly that their actions have real consequences. It is straigtforward association, and it works perfectly and with far less damage to the individual than other methods will leave.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (QT)
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Am I wrong to think that it's the parents responsibility to deal with most of this at home so that teachers can do what they are paid to do? Which in my book is teach. This is a parent issue. Parents are not establishing responsibility in the home and schools tried to. Then parents started suing schools (sometimes for good reason) so now schools are at this point. This is not a reason for widespread panic folks. It's a reason to do the following: 1. Sit the whole family down at night for dinner around the table. Talk, have fun, listen to your kids. 2. After dinner dads/moms clear off the table and help with homework. 3. Dads/moms, take time off work to go to teacher conferences. Find out from teachers where your help is needed and then help. 4. Dads/moms, I know you want to be rich and you have to keep up with the Jackies down the street but take some time off work to go to plays, sports events, play catch. !-- SPEND TIME WITH KIDS --! 5. Dads/moms, talk to kids about school. Make it exciting. Inspire math and science. Inspire greatness. 6. Establish discipline in the home so the world doesn't have to. Teachers, police, etc... don't have time to teach your kids how to behave. That's your job (mom/dad) so get off your butts and do it. This is not a reason for widespread panic or dismay. It is not any schools job to do what should be done in the home. The biggest problem in America today is that parents have lost touch with their kids because they are too busy trying to make a mighty buck. Do it the way your parents did it, do it how their parents did it. Get involved. It's pretty simple folks and their is no secret here. It's how America was built and it's what made us great. GET INVOLVED IN YOUR KIDS LIVES AND THIS WILL BE A NON-EVENT FOR YOU! - Rex
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
That's great and all, but a kid should still make a failing grade if he/she deserves it. Jeremy Falcon
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4687203.stm[^] We are now wanting to PAY kids for behaving! Am I just getting old or is the world going stark raving mad? And what's more, I just heard on the radio that it's been suggested that children are no longer told that they have failed at a subject - but they have "achieved deferred success". Kid sister rules prevent me from expressing my feelings about this hippy nonsense! I still remember having to write your own code in FORTRAN rather than be a cut and paste merchant being pampered by colour coded Intellisense - ahh proper programming - those were the days :)
"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards." - Mark Twain Jeremy Falcon
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DavidCrow wrote: Speaking of such, some school systems are doing away with their Physical Education (P.E.) programs because some kids were getting embarrassed that they couldn't do well (e.g., run, climb rope, throw a ball, push-ups). *sigh* That is not why. It is because of funding, pure and simple. PE grades aren't something that standardized testing measures. Standardized tests are tied to funding (frequently in ways that further punish underperforming schools -- great logic there), so PE gets the axe when things get tight. As do music and theater departments. I wish there was a term for those who think that being "PC" is to blame for everything that goes wrong.
David Kentley wrote: *sigh* That is not why. It is because of funding, pure and simple. Speaking from experience, embarrassment as well as lack of funds, is the reason. Unless you have actually spent years in the system, rather than just observing from the outside, it's hard to know all of the reasons.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: ...where* do you see your country 40 years from now? I'm scared to think about it. All I can do is to make sure that I and my family are good role models and provide a positive image to those we interact with. My children know right from wrong, and show respect to others. They know what it is like to be punished for disobeying and not following the rules. Expectations are high in my house. No they are not always met, but if you shoot high and miss, and least you'll be above average. My goal is for them to be at least as smart as their mother and I. That may sound kind of cheesy, but it's not uncommon for some parents to hold their kid(s) back for fear of them becoming better than the rest of the family. It's called being insecure.
"As for me and my house, we will worship the Lord." - Joshua 24:15
DavidCrow wrote: That may sound kind of cheesy, but it's not uncommon for some parents to hold their kid(s) back for fear of them becoming better than the rest of the family My god. If ever there is a case for social services to remove a child from a family that is one of the strongest ones. :omg:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (QT)
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That's great and all, but a kid should still make a failing grade if he/she deserves it. Jeremy Falcon
In my house the school could call it an F, or "Pink Roses" the meaning is the same. You didn't do the work so you don't get the credit. Who cares if the call it a green star. The mom's and dad's take care of the problem because they know what it really means. Are you a parent yet? If not someday you will know what I mean. If you ever take that road. I don't care what they call it and I don't care what it means to the world. In my home I will know what it means and so will my kids.
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
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Douglas Troy wrote: The public school system is a JOKE ... anyone that says different doesn't really understand just how bad it really has become. In all fairness, the vast majority of teachers (like your mother) are doing it for the right reason. They get great enjoyment from taking a kid from point A to point B in his/her life. The problem is not with the teachers, but they unfortunately receive a good amount of the blame because they have the most interaction with the children.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
David, I totally agree and never indicated that Teacher's are to blame what-so-ever. They are without control in the matter. My Mother personally tried and tried to get the system to change, and spoke at length with the board of education in her state, until they told her to "let it go" or "leave her job". No, it's not the teacher's that have lost the "vision" of what education is about, it's the people that manage that system that have only the vision of greed and of themselves. There's hope: Private schools, Home Schools and Charter Schools ... these are people trying their hardest to protect their kids and take back control of a system gone awry.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
While I can appreciate your disdain for said managers, the result of what Vikram was referring to are those types you see flipping burgers as an adult, sweeping streets, mowing easements for the city's public works department, emptying trash, athletes that can run the 40-yard dash in four seconds but can't multiply two numbers in their head (and sometimes on paper), etc. While they may make decisions that do not please everyone, managers are an educated bunch. Yes, there are sometimes smarter people that work for these managers, but that is beside the point.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
actually if everybody is educated and smart enough that they won't have to do the jobs like flipping burgers and sweeping streets, who would? besides I am not countering the original point vikram made. ankita
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I don't know what anyone on this thread is complaining about - when government officals receive medals for massive screwups and refuse to accept responsibility for the mistakes they make, why should we hold children accountable for their actions? If you were all so zealous about correcting the activities of adults the children would have examples to follow and wouldn't require beatings.
Some people just have to inject politics into every discussion...:zzz: Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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Am I wrong to think that it's the parents responsibility to deal with most of this at home so that teachers can do what they are paid to do? Which in my book is teach. This is a parent issue. Parents are not establishing responsibility in the home and schools tried to. Then parents started suing schools (sometimes for good reason) so now schools are at this point. This is not a reason for widespread panic folks. It's a reason to do the following: 1. Sit the whole family down at night for dinner around the table. Talk, have fun, listen to your kids. 2. After dinner dads/moms clear off the table and help with homework. 3. Dads/moms, take time off work to go to teacher conferences. Find out from teachers where your help is needed and then help. 4. Dads/moms, I know you want to be rich and you have to keep up with the Jackies down the street but take some time off work to go to plays, sports events, play catch. !-- SPEND TIME WITH KIDS --! 5. Dads/moms, talk to kids about school. Make it exciting. Inspire math and science. Inspire greatness. 6. Establish discipline in the home so the world doesn't have to. Teachers, police, etc... don't have time to teach your kids how to behave. That's your job (mom/dad) so get off your butts and do it. This is not a reason for widespread panic or dismay. It is not any schools job to do what should be done in the home. The biggest problem in America today is that parents have lost touch with their kids because they are too busy trying to make a mighty buck. Do it the way your parents did it, do it how their parents did it. Get involved. It's pretty simple folks and their is no secret here. It's how America was built and it's what made us great. GET INVOLVED IN YOUR KIDS LIVES AND THIS WILL BE A NON-EVENT FOR YOU! - Rex
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
CF - Children are all of our responsibility ... the old saying: "It takes a village to raise a child", really is so very true. Parents are too blame for failing to properly discipline their kids over such matters as school. Teachers have no recourse for discipline now, so their recourse is to drag the parents into it. It is the parents that seem to be saying "When my kid is in school, it's YOUR job to teach them and keep them in line", all the while many of those same parents are saying "But don't touch my kid, you can't fail them, I don't believe you when you tell me my kid is bad, keep talking and I'll sue". HOWEVER ... I've heard all too often teacher's saying, even of my own son, that his behavior in their class is somehow MY responsibility. Exactly how am I, while sitting in my office trying to do MY job, supposed to keep my son in his seat in their class room? I, unlike others, disciplined for school troubles at home, sat with my child, did homework with him, (as did my wife) etc ... until we finally pulled him out to Home School. No, they have to play a part in this as well ... and the fact of the matter is, when the teachers cannot discipline, and the school system says "Hands off" and both the parents have to work just to afford living (so they believe) ... everyone is pointing their fingers at everyone else saying "It's YOUR job, not mine" and the only ones loosing are the children. It's eveyone's job, the problem seems to me, that no one wants to do to, or those that do (e.g., Teachers) aren't given the "power" or "authority" they need to make that happen. My two cents.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards." - Mark Twain Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Then he made school boards." And just to top that, he created the PTA... Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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CF - Children are all of our responsibility ... the old saying: "It takes a village to raise a child", really is so very true. Parents are too blame for failing to properly discipline their kids over such matters as school. Teachers have no recourse for discipline now, so their recourse is to drag the parents into it. It is the parents that seem to be saying "When my kid is in school, it's YOUR job to teach them and keep them in line", all the while many of those same parents are saying "But don't touch my kid, you can't fail them, I don't believe you when you tell me my kid is bad, keep talking and I'll sue". HOWEVER ... I've heard all too often teacher's saying, even of my own son, that his behavior in their class is somehow MY responsibility. Exactly how am I, while sitting in my office trying to do MY job, supposed to keep my son in his seat in their class room? I, unlike others, disciplined for school troubles at home, sat with my child, did homework with him, (as did my wife) etc ... until we finally pulled him out to Home School. No, they have to play a part in this as well ... and the fact of the matter is, when the teachers cannot discipline, and the school system says "Hands off" and both the parents have to work just to afford living (so they believe) ... everyone is pointing their fingers at everyone else saying "It's YOUR job, not mine" and the only ones loosing are the children. It's eveyone's job, the problem seems to me, that no one wants to do to, or those that do (e.g., Teachers) aren't given the "power" or "authority" they need to make that happen. My two cents.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's siteOnce upon a time I would have agreed with you. There's too many wacko's now. I don't want them touching my kids. Prior to the wacko break-out I would have totally agreed. Wacko's are the only reason I disagree. Temperment is a large part too. My kids are extremely well behaved while in the care of others. I'd like to think it's because I reinforce that before they leave and I reward/punish that when they come home. But a lot of it is also temperment of the kids. Some kids are just head strong and that's not a social problem. I applaud those kids for being so. In the long run it will serve them well if they learn to control it and use it wisely. It does take a village but the village I want is free of sex-offenders, child molesters, child abusers and generally twisted people. It's to hard today to tell who is who so my request will be that nobody touch my child but me. I will also make sure I am very available to come if the school needs it. Not a great solution but wackos make it necessary.
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4687203.stm[^] We are now wanting to PAY kids for behaving! Am I just getting old or is the world going stark raving mad? And what's more, I just heard on the radio that it's been suggested that children are no longer told that they have failed at a subject - but they have "achieved deferred success". Kid sister rules prevent me from expressing my feelings about this hippy nonsense! I still remember having to write your own code in FORTRAN rather than be a cut and paste merchant being pampered by colour coded Intellisense - ahh proper programming - those were the days :)
I think they should give the ones that don't behave some more exciting opportunities - like cleaning the streets, or turning large rocks into small ones. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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David Kentley wrote: *sigh* That is not why. It is because of funding, pure and simple. Speaking from experience, embarrassment as well as lack of funds, is the reason. Unless you have actually spent years in the system, rather than just observing from the outside, it's hard to know all of the reasons.
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
DavidCrow wrote: Speaking from experience, embarrassment as well as lack of funds, is the reason. Unless you have actually spent years in the system, rather than just observing from the outside, it's hard to know all of the reasons. My mom has been a teacher (in public and private schools) since before I was born, and my wife is a high school teacher currently on leave while she raises our child. Everything that gets cut, every time, comes down to funding. The programs that get cut are those that don't impact the suffocating pile of pointless and harmful* tests that are designed to hold children and schools "accountable." * Suffocating because they cause teachers to "teach to the test" and instruct their kids in ways to work the system, rather than actually teaching the whole curriculum. * Pointless because, at least at my wife's school, they let some kids "elect" not to take them, artificially inflating the overall scores and letting the weaker students off the hook so it doesn't even give a clear indication of the performance of the school. * Harmful because, under our system, schools that score poorly actually get *less* funding. This seems to me like it would cause a vicious circle. I see no problem with rewarding individual students with scholarships for doing well, which they do (although this funding is in danger), but to treat entire schools this way is idiotic. So yeah, I obviously have some issues with the system as well, and it's from an insider view. :) Sorry about the tangent.
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David Wulff wrote: Get rid of this "we can't hurt their feelings" crap. These kids are going to fail at life with such an upbringing. Well said. :) David Wulff wrote: Teach kids about respect. Especially for themselves. Well said again. :) David Wulff wrote: Ban telvision and magazines. Well said yet again. :) David Wulff wrote: Bring back corporal punishment. Put the really disruptive little darlings in a cage for up to the remainder of the day. Well said... hey, wait a minute! Corporal punishment? No way! :mad: I've seen it happen at my school and it's terrible! I've seen sadist teachers who slapped 'stupid' kids and beat them up. I've never been thrashed by a teacher, but it's terrible to just see. If teachers start beating up kids, they will be no different from the school bully. And in my not-so-humble opinion, the ends DON'T justify the means. :mad: Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: Well said... hey, wait a minute! Corporal punishment? No way! I've seen it happen at my school and it's terrible! I've seen sadist teachers who slapped 'stupid' kids and beat them up. I've never been thrashed by a teacher, but it's terrible to just see. If teachers start beating up kids, they will be no different from the school bully. And in my not-so-humble opinion, the ends DON'T justify the means. Corporal punishment is not the same a teacher "beating up kids" or something similar to the school bully. When someone mentions "corporal punishment", getting punched in the face or getting your lunch money taken are generally not the things that come to mind. If you have a teacher, or a parent for that matter, that basically takes kids and "beats them up", the problem is with the teacher/parent. For example: just because you have a developer that writes horrible code using
C++does not mean that it isC++'s fault. Just a thought... Peace! -=- James
If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
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Once upon a time I would have agreed with you. There's too many wacko's now. I don't want them touching my kids. Prior to the wacko break-out I would have totally agreed. Wacko's are the only reason I disagree. Temperment is a large part too. My kids are extremely well behaved while in the care of others. I'd like to think it's because I reinforce that before they leave and I reward/punish that when they come home. But a lot of it is also temperment of the kids. Some kids are just head strong and that's not a social problem. I applaud those kids for being so. In the long run it will serve them well if they learn to control it and use it wisely. It does take a village but the village I want is free of sex-offenders, child molesters, child abusers and generally twisted people. It's to hard today to tell who is who so my request will be that nobody touch my child but me. I will also make sure I am very available to come if the school needs it. Not a great solution but wackos make it necessary.
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
code-frog wrote: It does take a village but the village I want is free of sex-offenders, child molesters, child abusers and generally twisted people. Yes, CF, I totally agree with this as well and I understand why people don't want others to touch their kids (I have two daughters, so I FULLY understand that concept). If you have children that are well behaved in school, consider yourself blessed. My parents had major issues with my sister, but I was never a problem. They handled us both the in the same manner ... to this day, I will NEVER understand my sister and why she is the way she is (nothing bad ever happened to her, just one day, she decided to hate school). My point is/was that the school system is not going to work until all parties come together and fix the current problems at hand. Parents MUST become more involved with their children and their schooling (as you've said). The school system MUST give back some power to the teachers (as I've said); they should be able to grade without a "curve", fail children that are failing, send kids to detention when needed ... they have to have some form of power, because right now, the kids KNOW they don't. It is true, that the few wackos have totally screwed it up for the rest of us ... this seems to happen OFTEN in this world.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
In my house the school could call it an F, or "Pink Roses" the meaning is the same. You didn't do the work so you don't get the credit. Who cares if the call it a green star. The mom's and dad's take care of the problem because they know what it really means. Are you a parent yet? If not someday you will know what I mean. If you ever take that road. I don't care what they call it and I don't care what it means to the world. In my home I will know what it means and so will my kids.
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
code-frog wrote: You didn't do the work so you don't get the credit. In case you haven't read this entire thread, that's just it. Kids are passing anyway without doing the work. code-frog wrote: Who cares if the call it a green star. The mom's and dad's take care of the problem because they know what it really means. I never said the parent didn't have a responsibility in this. I said if the kids deserve to fail then they should. Also, if you understand the psychology behind it, the idea of wrong from parents and wrong from school still has more impact than wrong from parents and right from school, regardless whether or not the parents due their part. Being ok from one side gives them a mental shelter. Did I say the parent could not take matters into their own hands? Nope, but I do believe the school board should get some things right though since it's their job to teach. code-frog wrote: Are you a parent yet? If not someday you will know what I mean. If you ever take that road. I don't care what they call it and I don't care what it means to the world. In my home I will know what it means and so will my kids. Well, as I said the psychological impact would be greater on the child that such performance is non-acceptable if it comes from everyone involved. Jeremy Falcon
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This is the result IMHO of education trying to be made a profit center instead of a well funded cost center that invests in the future of a country. Add into that the sue-everything-that-moves-that-I-don't-like mentality of America today and welcome to the dumb and dumber show. Very very very sad. :sigh:
fakefur wrote: trying to be made a profit center instead of a well funded cost center that invests in the future of a country I think it has more to do with the fact that, as a gov't run entity, it has to justify the funding it gets by spending the money. There is no reward for budgetting wisely, but spend your cash willy-nilly, and you'll be sure to get even more the following year. Private schools don't have nearly the difficulty public ones do, from what I've seen. This also seems to negate the suing excuse, unless we can show that people who invest in private education sue less than those in public schools. BW
All the chickens get it.
And them singing canaries get it.
Even strawberries get it.[
Discovering BPI
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I don't know what anyone on this thread is complaining about - when government officals receive medals for massive screwups and refuse to accept responsibility for the mistakes they make, why should we hold children accountable for their actions? If you were all so zealous about correcting the activities of adults the children would have examples to follow and wouldn't require beatings.
Saying we shouldn't try to fix A because B doesn't work either isn't very productive. Though related they are 2 seperate issues. BW
All the chickens get it.
And them singing canaries get it.
Even strawberries get it.[
Discovering BPI
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I know, it is too sad to contemplate. Just how... and where... did the system get so badly fucked up? You want discipline in school? You want kids to start learning and stop the abuse? It is shockingly easy: - Get rid of this "we can't hurt their feelings" crap. These kids are going to fail at life with such an upbringing. - Bring back corporal punishment. Put the really disruptive little darlings in a cage for up to the remainder of the day. - Teach kids about respect. Especially for themselves. Ban telvision and magazines. - Provide propper leisure activities for kids. Bring back parks that are real parks not merely an unbuilt on plot of land, bring back dangerous playground equipment like climbing frames or swings without seat harnesses, and let the damned kids be kids. Stop treating them like little adults which they have neither the wish nor maturity/responsibility to be.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (QT)
David Wulff wrote: Bring back corporal punishment. Put the really disruptive little darlings in a cage for up to the remainder of the day. I've been in schools with and without corporal punishment and in both cases, the students repected and obeyed the teachers that demanded respect and acted up with those that didn't. The threat of a paddle or cutting out our tounges with scissors didn't really have any effect on the situation at all. David Wulff wrote: Teach kids about respect. Especially for themselves. The best teachers I've had established respectful behavior in the classroom at all times. Both teacher to student and student to teacher. This is the core of what a learning environment is based on. I've even been in classrooms where grades weren't given. However the standards were much higher. If any of the work wasn't completed to the required level it was done over until it was done correctly, essentially only A level work counted. For example a report on any subject out the the encyclopeida was due every day. If yesterdays report wasn't good enough, then both reports were required.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon