I'm shocked
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A few days ago someone mentioned that 12 dollars an hour was a good programmer's wage. (sorry Paul :-O ) I can't believe that anyone could even live on 12 an hour. Anyway that made me think about a couple of things. 1. Is it even ethical for a programmer to accept that low of a wage? It's like an MD earning 12 dollars/hr. It devalues the whole profession. 2. Doesn't it make your employer think you are less capable? If you go to an interview and ask for that little will the HR person even think you are capable of doing the job. I have found that many companies think that those who ask for high salaries (100k+) seem to be better than those who ask for 50K(Even though the one asking for 50K is a much better programmer. BTW I don't think degrees have too much to do with how much you get because I have met terrible programmers with Masters degrees. So my opinion is that if you don't ask for enough money you may not even get the job becuase the HR person will think you are not qualified soley because you didn't ask for more money. When I first started out I would ask for 30K/year and I had a hard time getting work. Than I just said F*** it and started asking for 80K/year, and to my surprise I started getting Job offers!!! Tell me what you think of this. :) I :love: Microsoft
Martin Marvinski wrote: A few days ago someone mentioned that 12 dollars an hour was a good programmer's wage. (sorry Paul ) :-D no need to be sorry Martin. You must look at it from my view though. US$12 maybe is not much to someone paying US$s for their home, food and entertainment. But when you convert it to Rands (South African currency) it is a fair bit of money. Mainly because our currency has devalued faster than the standard of living cost has risen. Most good programmers in SA ask for R100 and up per hour. R100 buys either two people a REALLY good dinner or one person a 5 star 10 course meal. So it is enough money to be considered highly. I agree on your "asking for a high salary" statement. While it is not always true, money does not equate to guaranteed skills, it generally can be used as a rule. However consider the company I work for, Bluegrass. WE do development in South Africa and sell in London. So clients pay in Sterling while we pay our developers in Rands. So we can undercut most London based development houses and still deliver a great product. While we are still small we all sacrifice our salaries for the good of the company. In a few years though things will swing the other way :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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Martin Marvinski wrote: A few days ago someone mentioned that 12 dollars an hour was a good programmer's wage. (sorry Paul ) :-D no need to be sorry Martin. You must look at it from my view though. US$12 maybe is not much to someone paying US$s for their home, food and entertainment. But when you convert it to Rands (South African currency) it is a fair bit of money. Mainly because our currency has devalued faster than the standard of living cost has risen. Most good programmers in SA ask for R100 and up per hour. R100 buys either two people a REALLY good dinner or one person a 5 star 10 course meal. So it is enough money to be considered highly. I agree on your "asking for a high salary" statement. While it is not always true, money does not equate to guaranteed skills, it generally can be used as a rule. However consider the company I work for, Bluegrass. WE do development in South Africa and sell in London. So clients pay in Sterling while we pay our developers in Rands. So we can undercut most London based development houses and still deliver a great product. While we are still small we all sacrifice our salaries for the good of the company. In a few years though things will swing the other way :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
Paul Watson wrote: While we are still small we all sacrifice our salaries for the good of the company. In a few years though things will swing the other way Yeah, we're telling ourselves that where I work as well. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Paul Watson wrote: While we are still small we all sacrifice our salaries for the good of the company. In a few years though things will swing the other way Yeah, we're telling ourselves that where I work as well. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: Yeah, we're telling ourselves that where I work as well. Damn Christian, you are too cynical and I am to uncynical. I think a balance for both of us is needed :) What position do you occupy in the business? There are just two guys "above" me and I am the technical lead for the company. i.e. What I says goes in anything but sales or administration. Also how long have you been at it with your company? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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****Christian Graus wrote: Yeah, we're telling ourselves that where I work as well. Damn Christian, you are too cynical and I am to uncynical. I think a balance for both of us is needed :) What position do you occupy in the business? There are just two guys "above" me and I am the technical lead for the company. i.e. What I says goes in anything but sales or administration. Also how long have you been at it with your company? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
Paul Watson wrote: Damn Christian, you are too cynical and I am to uncynical. I think a balance for both of us is needed I think you're right. Paul Watson wrote: What position do you occupy in the business? There are just two guys "above" me and I am the technical lead for the company. i.e. What I says goes in anything but sales or administration. Also how long have you been at it with your company? I've been there the lonfest, by about three weeks. There are three developers, and one web guy, as well as the boss ( he's been there longer, obviously ). The developers are on equal footing, everything tends to be openly discussed. I am also the office manager, which means I have to do performance reviews, and I have say in terms of direction, targets, etc. Usually, it just means I do all the hateful paperwork. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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$12 an hour = %480 a week = $25,000 a year. If we're talking US dollars, I make less. If we're talking Australian dollars, I wouldn't get out of bed for that amount. Having said that, if my family needed to eat, I'd consider them above what is 'ethical'. I totally agree that asking for too little devalues you in the eyes of those you are asking though. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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****Christian Graus wrote: $12 an hour = %480 a week = $25,000 a year. If we're talking US dollars, I make less. Really? And you have a wife and 2 kids? How can you survive on that little? Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!
Cathy wrote: $12 an hour = %480 a week = $25,000 a year. If we're talking US dollars, I make less. Really? And you have a wife and 2 kids? How can you survive on that little? We're actually doing pretty well. $25,000 US = $48,000 AU, thereabouts. I make AU$45,000. I clear $600 a week, and my only debts are a car loan ($75 a week) and a homeloan ($100 a week). Power/rates/etc. averages to about $80 a week. My wife also works and pays for food, so I can bank $500 a week and still buy the odd DVD. And then I get the odd article in WDJ ( still trying to crack CUJ), which puts $800 into my hand on the top. For those who did the math, the difference between $45k and $600 a week is my annual 'loyalty' bonus. Having said that, developers on the mainland of Australia generally get paid twice what I do, so it's not all roses. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Paul Watson wrote: Damn Christian, you are too cynical and I am to uncynical. I think a balance for both of us is needed I think you're right. Paul Watson wrote: What position do you occupy in the business? There are just two guys "above" me and I am the technical lead for the company. i.e. What I says goes in anything but sales or administration. Also how long have you been at it with your company? I've been there the lonfest, by about three weeks. There are three developers, and one web guy, as well as the boss ( he's been there longer, obviously ). The developers are on equal footing, everything tends to be openly discussed. I am also the office manager, which means I have to do performance reviews, and I have say in terms of direction, targets, etc. Usually, it just means I do all the hateful paperwork. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: I've been there the lonfest, by about three weeks. And the company itself? How many years has it been going and looking back how close are you to your goals? Especially how close are you compared to how close you thought you were a year ago? ****Christian Graus wrote: The developers are on equal footing, everything tends to be openly discussed LOL ok I am no tyrant with "what I say goes" but it is good to know that if I feel a way is best, and no one can show a better way then it gets done. Also our sales guys (one true sales guy and one businessman, both started the company) respect that they know nothing about the technical side and leave it up to me, while I leave sales up to them, naturally. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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****Christian Graus wrote: I've been there the lonfest, by about three weeks. And the company itself? How many years has it been going and looking back how close are you to your goals? Especially how close are you compared to how close you thought you were a year ago? ****Christian Graus wrote: The developers are on equal footing, everything tends to be openly discussed LOL ok I am no tyrant with "what I say goes" but it is good to know that if I feel a way is best, and no one can show a better way then it gets done. Also our sales guys (one true sales guy and one businessman, both started the company) respect that they know nothing about the technical side and leave it up to me, while I leave sales up to them, naturally. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
Paul Watson wrote: Christian Graus wrote: I've been there the lonfest, by about three weeks. And the company itself? How many years has it been going and looking back how close are you to your goals? Especially how close are you compared to how close you thought you were a year ago? The company has been going for quite a while, and we always seem to be one get-rich-quick-scheme away from making it big. At the same time we keep plugging away at building a better version and at the moment it's a cross platform version. Hopefully the software will be bigger on the Mac than it has been on PC, and grow on the PC as well. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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A few days ago someone mentioned that 12 dollars an hour was a good programmer's wage. (sorry Paul :-O ) I can't believe that anyone could even live on 12 an hour. Anyway that made me think about a couple of things. 1. Is it even ethical for a programmer to accept that low of a wage? It's like an MD earning 12 dollars/hr. It devalues the whole profession. 2. Doesn't it make your employer think you are less capable? If you go to an interview and ask for that little will the HR person even think you are capable of doing the job. I have found that many companies think that those who ask for high salaries (100k+) seem to be better than those who ask for 50K(Even though the one asking for 50K is a much better programmer. BTW I don't think degrees have too much to do with how much you get because I have met terrible programmers with Masters degrees. So my opinion is that if you don't ask for enough money you may not even get the job becuase the HR person will think you are not qualified soley because you didn't ask for more money. When I first started out I would ask for 30K/year and I had a hard time getting work. Than I just said F*** it and started asking for 80K/year, and to my surprise I started getting Job offers!!! Tell me what you think of this. :) I :love: Microsoft
It always depends where you live, but you knew that. I live in the Denver area of Colorado. I am a sophmore at the University of Colorado. My major is Mechanical Engineering, with an emphasis in programming. I got hired for $14/hr as an intern, with "Introduction to C++", and "Data Structures in C++" under my belt. Only 2 classes! I am passionate about programming, which makes me more valuable than most who've had only 2 classes, but I wouldn't take an internship for less. Otherwise I'd rather do what I did before; work 20 hrs a week at the golf course, make $7.00/hr and play golf 40 hrs a week. Anyway, I will ask for $50-60k per year when I graduate. Now, you look at another state, you might ask for $25k/yr when you graduate.
long offeredSalary;
if{ mySalary < 40000 }
FlipEmOff();Notice the var declaration. Are you int or long? - John --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Live in a tent, work for 2 years => live for 20 in New Zealand off what you made.
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A few days ago someone mentioned that 12 dollars an hour was a good programmer's wage. (sorry Paul :-O ) I can't believe that anyone could even live on 12 an hour. Anyway that made me think about a couple of things. 1. Is it even ethical for a programmer to accept that low of a wage? It's like an MD earning 12 dollars/hr. It devalues the whole profession. 2. Doesn't it make your employer think you are less capable? If you go to an interview and ask for that little will the HR person even think you are capable of doing the job. I have found that many companies think that those who ask for high salaries (100k+) seem to be better than those who ask for 50K(Even though the one asking for 50K is a much better programmer. BTW I don't think degrees have too much to do with how much you get because I have met terrible programmers with Masters degrees. So my opinion is that if you don't ask for enough money you may not even get the job becuase the HR person will think you are not qualified soley because you didn't ask for more money. When I first started out I would ask for 30K/year and I had a hard time getting work. Than I just said F*** it and started asking for 80K/year, and to my surprise I started getting Job offers!!! Tell me what you think of this. :) I :love: Microsoft
I'm sure it depends on your resume. I don't mean to brag, but I have been published regularly for the past three years while going to college full-time, and it got me a student internship for $20/hr... Just my 2 cents Sincerely Yours, Brian Hart "And that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are above-average." - Garrison Keillor
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****Christian Graus wrote: $25,000 a year. If we're talking US dollars, I make less. If we're talking Australian dollars, I wouldn't get out of bed for that amount. My living expenses are $24K a year, so I literally couldn't afford to do anything but get out of bed. ;) --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage He who laughs last, didn't get the punchline and is just laughing so he won't look silly. Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
Only $24K a year? Where do you live, becuase I want to move there!! Is it nice? I :love: Microsoft
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I'm sure it depends on your resume. I don't mean to brag, but I have been published regularly for the past three years while going to college full-time, and it got me a student internship for $20/hr... Just my 2 cents Sincerely Yours, Brian Hart "And that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are above-average." - Garrison Keillor
I think for a student $20/hr is great pay for an internship. Interns aren't responsible for the final product, and don't have to be on call in case the Company needs them because school is the #1 priority. When you finally finnish school you will probably make $125K+ a year. I :love: Microsoft
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I think for a student $20/hr is great pay for an internship. Interns aren't responsible for the final product, and don't have to be on call in case the Company needs them because school is the #1 priority. When you finally finnish school you will probably make $125K+ a year. I :love: Microsoft
Martin Marvinski wrote: I think for a student $20/hr is great pay for an internship. Interns aren't responsible for the final product, and don't have to be on call in case the Company needs them because school is the #1 priority Most of what you said about being an intern is true, I actually finsihed a project and presented on it to my supervisors. It was a physics internship at a US gov lab, and while it did involve FORTRAN programming, I really was doing physics. That said, when I finally finish school, well, who knows... We can hope -- I graduate this May. Sincerely Yours, Brian Hart "And that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are above-average." - Garrison Keillor
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****Christian Graus wrote: $12 an hour = %480 a week = $25,000 a year. If we're talking US dollars, I make less. Really? And you have a wife and 2 kids? How can you survive on that little? Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!
Many people do. We (as in Americans) tend to get very spoiled. So much of what we consider requirements aren't. Cable tv? New car instead of used? The 3rd computer and home network? That 2rd phone line and 2 cell phones? etc... Wife and 2 kids on 25K a year is VERY doable. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Many people do. We (as in Americans) tend to get very spoiled. So much of what we consider requirements aren't. Cable tv? New car instead of used? The 3rd computer and home network? That 2rd phone line and 2 cell phones? etc... Wife and 2 kids on 25K a year is VERY doable. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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A few days ago someone mentioned that 12 dollars an hour was a good programmer's wage. (sorry Paul :-O ) I can't believe that anyone could even live on 12 an hour. Anyway that made me think about a couple of things. 1. Is it even ethical for a programmer to accept that low of a wage? It's like an MD earning 12 dollars/hr. It devalues the whole profession. 2. Doesn't it make your employer think you are less capable? If you go to an interview and ask for that little will the HR person even think you are capable of doing the job. I have found that many companies think that those who ask for high salaries (100k+) seem to be better than those who ask for 50K(Even though the one asking for 50K is a much better programmer. BTW I don't think degrees have too much to do with how much you get because I have met terrible programmers with Masters degrees. So my opinion is that if you don't ask for enough money you may not even get the job becuase the HR person will think you are not qualified soley because you didn't ask for more money. When I first started out I would ask for 30K/year and I had a hard time getting work. Than I just said F*** it and started asking for 80K/year, and to my surprise I started getting Job offers!!! Tell me what you think of this. :) I :love: Microsoft
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A few days ago someone mentioned that 12 dollars an hour was a good programmer's wage. (sorry Paul :-O ) I can't believe that anyone could even live on 12 an hour. Anyway that made me think about a couple of things. 1. Is it even ethical for a programmer to accept that low of a wage? It's like an MD earning 12 dollars/hr. It devalues the whole profession. 2. Doesn't it make your employer think you are less capable? If you go to an interview and ask for that little will the HR person even think you are capable of doing the job. I have found that many companies think that those who ask for high salaries (100k+) seem to be better than those who ask for 50K(Even though the one asking for 50K is a much better programmer. BTW I don't think degrees have too much to do with how much you get because I have met terrible programmers with Masters degrees. So my opinion is that if you don't ask for enough money you may not even get the job becuase the HR person will think you are not qualified soley because you didn't ask for more money. When I first started out I would ask for 30K/year and I had a hard time getting work. Than I just said F*** it and started asking for 80K/year, and to my surprise I started getting Job offers!!! Tell me what you think of this. :) I :love: Microsoft
Martin Marvinski wrote: I can't believe that anyone could even live on 12 an hour. That's what I live off of. Martin Marvinski wrote: When I first started out I would ask for 30K/year and I had a hard time getting work. Than I just said F*** it and started asking for 80K/year, and to my surprise I started getting Job offers!!! So that's my problem!
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"A few days ago someone mentioned that 12 dollars an hour was a good programmer's wage. (sorry Paul ) I can't believe that anyone could even live on 12 an hour. Anyway that made me think about a couple of things." There is probably no programmer in USA that makes that kind of money unless he is a student working on some poor professor's project. But I personally know some medical PhDs working for NIH (National Institute of Health, USA) who make about 20k/year, which is a lot less than $12/hour considering the long hours they have to spend in the lab everyday.
kfc wrote: There is probably no programmer in USA that makes that kind of money unless he is a student working on some poor professor's project. :(( Makes my $10/hour seem awfully small *must find the light at the end of the tunnel* Ah! I also live at home/dorms, so that cuts my expenses way down, so about the only thing I have to pay for right now is personal items and my debt. And on top of that my hours are extremely lenient, ie I may only work 1-2 hours a week while @ uni. Now that I'm transferring to a college closer to home though I expect my expenses to go up a bit, mainly in gas money. Now tack on a few nice clauses in my contract and I'm a happy camper. When I move out (after I'm finished with uni) I'm gonna need a bit more than $10/hr to compensate for my time though. I can't request anything high, but I should be able to get enough to live comfortably on :) I feel much better now :-D James Sonork ID: 100.11138 - Hasaki
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My daycare bill alone is $14,400 a year. My mortgage is $15,600 a year. I can't seem to get out of the grocery store for under $200. The cost of living is very high in the Bay Area. Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!
Cathy wrote: My daycare bill alone is $14,400 a year. My mortgage is $15,600 a year. I hear you loud and clear. Daycare £16k7pa but one goes to state school in a year then it halves. Mortgage £19k8pa but only 11 years to go. No tax relief here anymore. The kids are still young so food isn't too bad. Need a second car though.
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It always depends where you live, but you knew that. I live in the Denver area of Colorado. I am a sophmore at the University of Colorado. My major is Mechanical Engineering, with an emphasis in programming. I got hired for $14/hr as an intern, with "Introduction to C++", and "Data Structures in C++" under my belt. Only 2 classes! I am passionate about programming, which makes me more valuable than most who've had only 2 classes, but I wouldn't take an internship for less. Otherwise I'd rather do what I did before; work 20 hrs a week at the golf course, make $7.00/hr and play golf 40 hrs a week. Anyway, I will ask for $50-60k per year when I graduate. Now, you look at another state, you might ask for $25k/yr when you graduate.
long offeredSalary;
if{ mySalary < 40000 }
FlipEmOff();Notice the var declaration. Are you int or long? - John --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Live in a tent, work for 2 years => live for 20 in New Zealand off what you made.
