Another question about source control tools
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code-frog wrote:
this place might be if everyone spent the 20 or 30 minutes it takes to offer a great answer
Yes I know. More often that not spending that extra minute to get a link or to explain in a little more detail is a hundred times more helpful to those reading the post. I really appreciate the time you took with your post, and because you made it look easy, I'll actually give it some time tomorrow to install and test Subversion. Thanks again :) -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
Hi, Let me just add that I'm running svn on a windows 2000 server through apache. I was trying to figure out how to set it up when I discovered that the guys doing tortoiseSVN have actually made a step-by-step guide on the tortoiseSVN help file :o) So try this: Install TortoiseSVN on the client (They have JUST release the 1.3 RC1, I think its ok to use) on the client Open the help file and get instructions in chapter 3 on how to install apache and subversion on your server. This way, you can access your repository through http://servername/svn - which means that you can access it from anywhere. Or you can do a vpn to the server first if that is required on your network. Further, you can use WebSVN[^] with some extra apache/php modules to view sourcecode in your browser. With syntax colouring, changelogs, blame-support etc etc. /Jan Do you know why it's important to make fast decisions? Because you give yourself more time to correct your mistakes, when you find out that you made the wrong one. Chris Meech on deciding whether to go to his daughters graduation or a Neil Young concert
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I've only used VSS since 1996'ish so I'm speaking out of ignorance here. I see a lot of angst against VSS so my question is what is it specifically that people don't like? Now that VSS 2005 can be accessed via HTTP it seems pretty good to me but then again I don't know anything else. E=mc2 -> BOOM
I've not used any source control application besides SourceSafe, but here's my two bits: 1. SS doesn't work well remotely. Since it is a pure client application, it operates directly on the files in the data base. For that reason, there's a huge amount of traffic between the client and the data base for even the most trivial of transactions. 2. SS has to be monitored constantly. It includes the 'Analyze' tool to check data base integrity. We've had sufficient problems with SS screwing up that I run Analyze nightly. I also backup a verbatim copy of the data base every night. We have had a couple of occasions where we simply reverted the entire data base to a backup, since the Analyze application couldn't repair the damage. 3. SS doesn't scale well. Once you get past 12-15 users and/or 5 Gb of data in the data base, SS starts corrupting the data base too often. 4. SS integration with Visual Studio is flaky. Studio will 'connect' projects and solutions to SS elements in different ways depending upon how you retrieve them from SS or open them with Studio. The different methods cause different behaviors later on when you perform checkouts, or if you share the project in SS. 5. The client application sucks. The UI hasn't been updated since the original Windows 3.1 application that Microsoft bought and turned into SourceSafe. At my site we use a modified version of the SS resource DLL, where I've resized the most commonly used dialogs so that at least you can see long filenames. 6. While the Automation interface for SS is useful, operations performed with it do not always behave the same as the identical operation performed using the SS client. Speaking of the automation interface, there are a whole pile of activities that I've had to write tool apps for that SS ought to provide natively. I haven't used SourceSafe 2005 yet, but I'm not holding my breath that they've made any significant improvements. We will continue to use it, but we are approaching the limits I mentioned earlier. We currently have ten users, and our data base is at 2.5G. If we grow any more, I'm going to start hunting down a different solution. I've got better things to do with my time than nursemaid SourceSafe.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Luis Alonso Ramos wrote:
and because you made it look easy
That's what kept me from doing it for so long. It was just a headache I didn't need. Today I decided to go for it. I got SVN installed and I got Tortoise installed. I couldn't get anything to link up and work. :sigh: I was almost ready to give up when I did a google for "subversion server windows" and that's when I got the unreal hit. I went and looked at that post and that guy makes it easy. He tells you how to setup the subversion server as a service (you have to get the Windows Server resource kit for that, no problem though you can use it on XP or 2000 you just need two files that let you make an .exe into a service). He then went into some very simple but show stopping steps (if you don't know them) for setting up a subversion service in the registry. Then starting the service and he takes you from there. He doesn't omit any steps. Had I found his stuff first I would have been up and running across my network in under 30 minutes... Ah well... That's how it goes. Someone makes it easy for everyone you just have to find it... That's the kicker.:cool:
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
I'm currently installing Virtual PC to install SVN on it :) -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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Hi, Let me just add that I'm running svn on a windows 2000 server through apache. I was trying to figure out how to set it up when I discovered that the guys doing tortoiseSVN have actually made a step-by-step guide on the tortoiseSVN help file :o) So try this: Install TortoiseSVN on the client (They have JUST release the 1.3 RC1, I think its ok to use) on the client Open the help file and get instructions in chapter 3 on how to install apache and subversion on your server. This way, you can access your repository through http://servername/svn - which means that you can access it from anywhere. Or you can do a vpn to the server first if that is required on your network. Further, you can use WebSVN[^] with some extra apache/php modules to view sourcecode in your browser. With syntax colouring, changelogs, blame-support etc etc. /Jan Do you know why it's important to make fast decisions? Because you give yourself more time to correct your mistakes, when you find out that you made the wrong one. Chris Meech on deciding whether to go to his daughters graduation or a Neil Young concert
Jan R Hansen wrote:
Open the help file and get instructions in chapter 3 on how to install apache and subversion on your server.
I have all morning trying to do that, and I just can't. I set up a Windows 2000 Workstation Virtual PC (the only clean one I have available) and installed TortoiseSVN and Apache on it without any problems at all. Then I tried to install Subversion and Apache won't start. I uninstalled Apache, reinstalled it, repaired the installation and it always complains about not finding Subversion's modules. I also tried to configure it manually and it still can't find the modules. And they are there! :sigh: I wanted to have an Apache server (on HTTP) rather than its own protocol, but I guess I'll try now with the other type of server. Time to uninstall everything again. :sigh: -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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Jan R Hansen wrote:
Open the help file and get instructions in chapter 3 on how to install apache and subversion on your server.
I have all morning trying to do that, and I just can't. I set up a Windows 2000 Workstation Virtual PC (the only clean one I have available) and installed TortoiseSVN and Apache on it without any problems at all. Then I tried to install Subversion and Apache won't start. I uninstalled Apache, reinstalled it, repaired the installation and it always complains about not finding Subversion's modules. I also tried to configure it manually and it still can't find the modules. And they are there! :sigh: I wanted to have an Apache server (on HTTP) rather than its own protocol, but I guess I'll try now with the other type of server. Time to uninstall everything again. :sigh: -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
If you are taking the apache route I'm not sure how that will work on a Virtual PC. I mean it's called a Virtual PC not server. If was going to do that though I'd get the apache download first. Get it installed and working (which apache alone shouldn't be hard at all) then take on SVN after that. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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Jan R Hansen wrote:
Open the help file and get instructions in chapter 3 on how to install apache and subversion on your server.
I have all morning trying to do that, and I just can't. I set up a Windows 2000 Workstation Virtual PC (the only clean one I have available) and installed TortoiseSVN and Apache on it without any problems at all. Then I tried to install Subversion and Apache won't start. I uninstalled Apache, reinstalled it, repaired the installation and it always complains about not finding Subversion's modules. I also tried to configure it manually and it still can't find the modules. And they are there! :sigh: I wanted to have an Apache server (on HTTP) rather than its own protocol, but I guess I'll try now with the other type of server. Time to uninstall everything again. :sigh: -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
I just looked into this briefly and one of the things I became keenly aware of (and it's a flashback from Linux) is that when you are doing this... Trying to splice together two stand-alone systems (apache and svn) you need to check versions and dependencies. At the SVN site it should say which versions of apache it will work with. That's the version you need to get. Installing apache alone is pretty easy but you need to configure it to work as well (you probably know that).
I think if I was you I would start here http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi[^] and I would look and see which version SVN needs well wait upon a closer look at the subversion site I found this and this looks like a direct-hit for what you need: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch06.html[^] now about midway down it talks about apache configuration I'd start there and use google for the parts that seem obscure or difficult. I've learned early on that many people have built stupid little installers to make the whole process trivial you just have to combine the right Google terms to find them.
If I had the time right now to screw with apache I would I don't though but I'm betting the links above are going to get you where you want to be.
- Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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If you are taking the apache route I'm not sure how that will work on a Virtual PC. I mean it's called a Virtual PC not server. If was going to do that though I'd get the apache download first. Get it installed and working (which apache alone shouldn't be hard at all) then take on SVN after that. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
I installed Apache 2.0.55 in the Win2K virtual PC and it worked perfectly. I could see the welcome page both from the virtual machine and from my physical machine. I did verify that. But once I installed Subversion 1.2.3 into apache (adding some modules to the config file -- either by Subversion's setup or manually with Notepad) Apache wouldn't start. Reinstalling (to repair) Apache would show an error message saying that it couldn't load
C:\.....\Apache2\modules\mod_svn_auth.so(or something like that) and it was there indeed, I could see them in Explorer. For the moment I went back to work on a project sincen I just found a nasty bug! X| But I'll keep on trying later today! I'll try what you suggested in your original post, using Subversion's own server. Thanks for all the help! :) -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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I just looked into this briefly and one of the things I became keenly aware of (and it's a flashback from Linux) is that when you are doing this... Trying to splice together two stand-alone systems (apache and svn) you need to check versions and dependencies. At the SVN site it should say which versions of apache it will work with. That's the version you need to get. Installing apache alone is pretty easy but you need to configure it to work as well (you probably know that).
I think if I was you I would start here http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi[^] and I would look and see which version SVN needs well wait upon a closer look at the subversion site I found this and this looks like a direct-hit for what you need: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch06.html[^] now about midway down it talks about apache configuration I'd start there and use google for the parts that seem obscure or difficult. I've learned early on that many people have built stupid little installers to make the whole process trivial you just have to combine the right Google terms to find them.
If I had the time right now to screw with apache I would I don't though but I'm betting the links above are going to get you where you want to be.
- Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
Forget the bug for a while, let's try to get this going!! :) Yes, versions are OK. Subversion needs Apache 2 instead of 1.3, and I have 2.0.55, so everything is fine. Looking at the link you provided, it says exactly what I was doing (that I read on the Tortoise SVN docs), basically add
LoadModuledirectives for both Subversion modules. But once I add those and restart Apache, it won't start. If I comment those two lines, it starts again. :sigh: I'm downloading your One Click Subversion setup, and I'll try that one next. -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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I just looked into this briefly and one of the things I became keenly aware of (and it's a flashback from Linux) is that when you are doing this... Trying to splice together two stand-alone systems (apache and svn) you need to check versions and dependencies. At the SVN site it should say which versions of apache it will work with. That's the version you need to get. Installing apache alone is pretty easy but you need to configure it to work as well (you probably know that).
I think if I was you I would start here http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi[^] and I would look and see which version SVN needs well wait upon a closer look at the subversion site I found this and this looks like a direct-hit for what you need: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch06.html[^] now about midway down it talks about apache configuration I'd start there and use google for the parts that seem obscure or difficult. I've learned early on that many people have built stupid little installers to make the whole process trivial you just have to combine the right Google terms to find them.
If I had the time right now to screw with apache I would I don't though but I'm betting the links above are going to get you where you want to be.
- Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
I guess I finally got it to work. I haven't made it run as a service yet, since it's running in a virtual machine. But I'm already working on it from my physical machine (only installed TortoiseSVN) and you know what, I'm kind of starting to like it :) -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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I guess I finally got it to work. I haven't made it run as a service yet, since it's running in a virtual machine. But I'm already working on it from my physical machine (only installed TortoiseSVN) and you know what, I'm kind of starting to like it :) -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
We are having an open house today (we are selling our home) so I'm hit and miss here. I really like it. I think it's great how it's integrated right into the shell. You do everything right from the files themselves. No web browser, no hokus-pokus just check-in/or out and keep working away. I really like it.
- Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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We are having an open house today (we are selling our home) so I'm hit and miss here. I really like it. I think it's great how it's integrated right into the shell. You do everything right from the files themselves. No web browser, no hokus-pokus just check-in/or out and keep working away. I really like it.
- Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
I'm no source control expert by any means, but I had used Vault before and while it's good and easy to use, as you say, I like shell integration here better. And not to say that if I choose it, I would save some $900 USD. :rolleyes: It may as well be a real option! :) Good luck with selling your house! I'm going home now, it's 4:30 pm and I'm hungry! I'll let you know how things evolve with my source control choice :) Thanks for all! -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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I'm no source control expert by any means, but I had used Vault before and while it's good and easy to use, as you say, I like shell integration here better. And not to say that if I choose it, I would save some $900 USD. :rolleyes: It may as well be a real option! :) Good luck with selling your house! I'm going home now, it's 4:30 pm and I'm hungry! I'll let you know how things evolve with my source control choice :) Thanks for all! -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
great you got it to work - was it with http:// or svn:// ? If you need any help with the apache configuration I'll happily send you my configuration files. Just let me know *which* files - it's quite some time ago I set it up :-D Do you know why it's important to make fast decisions? Because you give yourself more time to correct your mistakes, when you find out that you made the wrong one. Chris Meech on deciding whether to go to his daughters graduation or a Neil Young concert
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Everyone always talks about Subversion here (and TortoiseSVN)... is it really that good? -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
I don't know about Subversion but on large projects I've had a lot of trouble with CVS mainly because the tools are inconsistent and have various bugs, poor version control of the tols themselves etc. - CVSNT is the worst offender for this. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Okay...
With PVCS being the last version control system I used (and hated) I decided to get away from SourceSafe (hold the tomatoes please) and try Subversion with TortoiseSVN. I've got a wad of Linux and Windows servers to choose from. Honestly though setting up something like this on Linux is just *too* easy (not kidding either tar it config it run it, easy). So I decided to get it up and running on my Windows 2003 Small Business Server. In a nutshell I blew most of my afternoon on this as I had to answer phones, fix a few client software problems the usual Friday burn.
Here's what I wound up using and the whole process should be working in under 30 minutes.
As you follow the links this is the process I used.
On the server:
*One click subversion installer.
*Tortoise GUI front-end (restart required)
//--Follow steps below--//On all clients:
* Tortoise GUI front-end (restart required)Get the SVN installer and related junk (skip this and use this):
One Click Subversion Installer[^]Get the Tortoise (GUI Subversion Front-End from here):
Tortoise SVN GUI[^]You've got it installed but you haven't done anything with it. Use this guide for setting up a subversion server for Unreal builds. Obviously quit where it gets unreal specific and you're good to go.
Subversion for Unreal[^]After you get the service running click the "Setting up subversion" link in the above tutorial or click here:
The subversion project details...[What about command line tools for automation? The tigress is here :-D
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great you got it to work - was it with http:// or svn:// ? If you need any help with the apache configuration I'll happily send you my configuration files. Just let me know *which* files - it's quite some time ago I set it up :-D Do you know why it's important to make fast decisions? Because you give yourself more time to correct your mistakes, when you find out that you made the wrong one. Chris Meech on deciding whether to go to his daughters graduation or a Neil Young concert
I got
svn://to work (the custom server.) I couldn't get Apache to work with Subversion. By itself Apache installed and worked perfectly. But once I added theLoadModuledirective for both SVN modules, Apache wouldn't start saying it didn't find the files even if they were there. I tried Subversion's setup to auto-install itself with Apache, and I did it manually, and in both cases the result was the same. The step-by-step in TortoiseSVN help was very clear and easy to follow, but it just didn't work :sigh: I spent some 2 hours at least with that before trying to run it as a custom server, in which case it worked at the first try. It was just for a test server inside a Virtual PC, so I wanted more to test the client than install a perfect server. And I think I liked it, the TortoiseSVN UI is great. :) -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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What about command line tools for automation? The tigress is here :-D
According to this[^] page, at the very end of the features it says: Parseable output All output of the Subversion command-line client is carefully designed to be both human readable and automatically parseable; scriptability is a high priority. So it's automation support better be good, since it's a high priority. :) But what do you need? a total checkout of the project for automated builds? I think any source control client supports that. Or is there anything else? -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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I don't know about Subversion but on large projects I've had a lot of trouble with CVS mainly because the tools are inconsistent and have various bugs, poor version control of the tols themselves etc. - CVSNT is the worst offender for this. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote:
a lot of trouble with CVS mainly because the tools are inconsistent and have various bugs, poor version control of the tols themselves etc
I agree with CVSNT is very X|
ZeePain! wrote:
This seems like one of those programs that started small, grew incrementally, building internal pressure, and finally barfed all over its source code sneakers. Or something.
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Everyone always talks about Subversion here (and TortoiseSVN)... is it really that good? -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
Luis Alonso Ramos wrote:
Subversion here (and TortoiseSVN)... is it really that good?
Yup :cool: I see Rex has already given a detailed answer so I will for go the duplication.
ZeePain! wrote:
This seems like one of those programs that started small, grew incrementally, building internal pressure, and finally barfed all over its source code sneakers. Or something.
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Okay...
With PVCS being the last version control system I used (and hated) I decided to get away from SourceSafe (hold the tomatoes please) and try Subversion with TortoiseSVN. I've got a wad of Linux and Windows servers to choose from. Honestly though setting up something like this on Linux is just *too* easy (not kidding either tar it config it run it, easy). So I decided to get it up and running on my Windows 2003 Small Business Server. In a nutshell I blew most of my afternoon on this as I had to answer phones, fix a few client software problems the usual Friday burn.
Here's what I wound up using and the whole process should be working in under 30 minutes.
As you follow the links this is the process I used.
On the server:
*One click subversion installer.
*Tortoise GUI front-end (restart required)
//--Follow steps below--//On all clients:
* Tortoise GUI front-end (restart required)Get the SVN installer and related junk (skip this and use this):
One Click Subversion Installer[^]Get the Tortoise (GUI Subversion Front-End from here):
Tortoise SVN GUI[^]You've got it installed but you haven't done anything with it. Use this guide for setting up a subversion server for Unreal builds. Obviously quit where it gets unreal specific and you're good to go.
Subversion for Unreal[^]After you get the service running click the "Setting up subversion" link in the above tutorial or click here:
The subversion project details...[Missed a link. The Subverion book. Version Control with Subversion[^]
ZeePain! wrote:
This seems like one of those programs that started small, grew incrementally, building internal pressure, and finally barfed all over its source code sneakers. Or something.
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I've not used any source control application besides SourceSafe, but here's my two bits: 1. SS doesn't work well remotely. Since it is a pure client application, it operates directly on the files in the data base. For that reason, there's a huge amount of traffic between the client and the data base for even the most trivial of transactions. 2. SS has to be monitored constantly. It includes the 'Analyze' tool to check data base integrity. We've had sufficient problems with SS screwing up that I run Analyze nightly. I also backup a verbatim copy of the data base every night. We have had a couple of occasions where we simply reverted the entire data base to a backup, since the Analyze application couldn't repair the damage. 3. SS doesn't scale well. Once you get past 12-15 users and/or 5 Gb of data in the data base, SS starts corrupting the data base too often. 4. SS integration with Visual Studio is flaky. Studio will 'connect' projects and solutions to SS elements in different ways depending upon how you retrieve them from SS or open them with Studio. The different methods cause different behaviors later on when you perform checkouts, or if you share the project in SS. 5. The client application sucks. The UI hasn't been updated since the original Windows 3.1 application that Microsoft bought and turned into SourceSafe. At my site we use a modified version of the SS resource DLL, where I've resized the most commonly used dialogs so that at least you can see long filenames. 6. While the Automation interface for SS is useful, operations performed with it do not always behave the same as the identical operation performed using the SS client. Speaking of the automation interface, there are a whole pile of activities that I've had to write tool apps for that SS ought to provide natively. I haven't used SourceSafe 2005 yet, but I'm not holding my breath that they've made any significant improvements. We will continue to use it, but we are approaching the limits I mentioned earlier. We currently have ten users, and our data base is at 2.5G. If we grow any more, I'm going to start hunting down a different solution. I've got better things to do with my time than nursemaid SourceSafe.
Software Zen:
delete this;I've used VSS since about 1995, when Microsoft first bought it from OneTree. And, while I don't doubt anything you've said, I have found that SourceSafe works fine if you take a few precautions. VSS generally only becomes corrupted in one of a few situations such as if the client crashes during an update, or you have a flaky network (this includes trying to use VSS over dialup). I typically run analyze about once every other month, somtimes going much longer, and that's with upwards of 50 users and a 20GB database. Good servers and a good network are a must, as well as using good clients that don't crash all the time. VSS is adequate, and if you already have a license for it, and cost is an issue, then you can use it quite well. VSS2005 includes a client/serverish HTTP connection, so if you're on a WAN or dialup, that's a better choice. As for your comments about Visual Studio integration flakiness, I disagree. It's true that doing things in different ways can achieve different results, but that's a consistency issue. You should only be using it the same way. Pick one way and stick with it. I still tend to stick with VSS because the integration works a lot better with VSS than other tools. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?