Women in IT
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What a bunch of crap. If women want to become programmers, then do what I did - start playing with computers when you're young to see if you really like them, study programming at college, get an entry-level job where you can learn from the more experienced people around you. In other words, put some effort into it. The image problems start at an early age, said Anne Cantelo, project director at the e-skills NTO. "Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." So girls are taking career advice from TV shows? Ooookay... However, even when women enter the IT profession, they are pigeonholed into traditional female roles, said Cantelo. "The majority of jobs held by women in IT are in HR, marketing and data analysis. Very few women hold positions on the board or even at senior management levels," she added. More BS. Go to your HR department and ask everyone there (men and women) how many of them want to be programmers but got stuck in HR instead. Actually, don't waste your time, the answer will be zero. The article boils down to a woman saying "I think programmers are geeky so wah I don't want to be a programmer but wah why aren't there more women programmers". Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage "Hey, you wanna go to the Espresso Pump and get sugared up on mochas?" -- Willow Rosenberg Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
Michael Dunn wrote: they are pigeonholed into traditional female roles and who in particular would 'help' with this allocation.. Too many people scared that women will 'take their jobs', didn't they say something like that in the industrial revolution? Working outside the home full-time and overtime is over-rated, I'd love to see more of my kids growing up.
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"Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." My 8 year old daughter is facinated by anything to do with science and computers. She also doesn't seem to mind my pony tail.
Mark Nischalke wrote: She also doesn't seem to mind my pony tail. Does she mind the short, pale and greasy bits though? ;P Naaah, good for her and encourage it! We need more scientifically minded people in this world. In fact if she wants to experience Africa, send her to SA as we have 1 scientist to every 1000 socio-politicist. Mark Nischalke wrote: Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring Amazing, at that age all I could think about was wanting to be a Womble and visiting Wimbledon Common (it aint all it's cracked up to be, believe me.) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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No this isn't a geek specific dating resource :laugh: Due to the frequency of comments about female co-workers, I thought I'd post it... The final frontier: Women in IT "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
First, the following is not directed at Qomi, but is directed at people that believe the crap that the cited article represents. What a pathetic piece of crackpot (for lack of a better term) journalism. Paraphrasing - "Women don't go into IT because of the geek factor." Well, women don't go into garbage pickup because they' don't want to haul other people's shit around all day too. Why? Because it's not "glamourous" work, either. Why does everyone feel the need to push people into jobs they either don't want or aren't qualified for? You want glamour? Be a freakin super model. You wanna be in IT? Be a programmer. But don't come whining to me about your freaking career choices or the fact that you think you were coerced into NOT choosing a more lucrative education. So what - you're black, asian, white, mexican, female, male, handicapped, blind, deaf, or lost most of your epidermal layer in a fiery car crash. Big fuckin deal. If you're qualified to do the job, and you want the job, then go out and get the damned job. Just don't sit there sniveling about how you thought all programmers where white male geeks with bad skin and no life, so you figured it wasn't for you. We all have the freedom to make our own choices, and and you made yours, so live with it or change. Adapt. Conquer. But don't you dare shed a tear for what might have been. What a pile of dog guano. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I think the link you meant was this one: ;) http://www.silicon.com/bin/bladerunner?REQUNIQ=1011287732&REQSESS=11556670&3001REQEVENT=&REQINT1=50503&REQINT2=1&REQSTR1=Text%20News&REQSTR2=The%20final%20frontier:%20Women%20in%20IT&REQSTR3=%7c&REQAUTH=21046. Personally, I think it's a pretty bad inditement, but not surprising. This paragraph says it all: She claimed many women are put off by the geeky stereotyping that surrounds the industry and, as a result, are missing out on exciting, well-paid careers. Sad to say, I've worked with so many males who support this sort of stereotype. Hopefully I'm not one of them...;) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
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"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul WatsonWhat a crock of shit. The world is full of bleeding-heart liberals tghat think being PC will cure the world's problems. What we need are people who simply user their brains for something more than a media-driven illusion of reality. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Qomi, here are my criteria for working with fellow IT people: 1. Are they enthusiastic, willing to learn, share knowledge and push themselves? 2. Can they code and grasp concepts quite quickly 3. If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? 4. Do they have other things in their life apart from IT? (my preference is Yes) and that is about it. So whether you are female/male, blue/green, three eyed or just the usual two, I won't let it affect the working relationship. I wonder if I would think diferently about there being not such a huge problem between male and female IT people if I was female. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: 3. If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? 4. Do they have other things in their life apart from IT? (my preference is Yes) and that is about it. Paul - Why should (3) and (4) matter in a IT co-worker? In (4), Would it be ok if their "other" activities were contrary to what you might consider acceptable ? For me in addition to (1) and (2), I would like to work with people who are honest about work issues (dont intentionally overlook bugs, etc). I really have no problem if they dont want to have a drink with me, lunch with me, or talk non-work issues with me. They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers.
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What a crock of shit. The world is full of bleeding-heart liberals tghat think being PC will cure the world's problems. What we need are people who simply user their brains for something more than a media-driven illusion of reality. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Paul Watson wrote: 3. If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? 4. Do they have other things in their life apart from IT? (my preference is Yes) and that is about it. Paul - Why should (3) and (4) matter in a IT co-worker? In (4), Would it be ok if their "other" activities were contrary to what you might consider acceptable ? For me in addition to (1) and (2), I would like to work with people who are honest about work issues (dont intentionally overlook bugs, etc). I really have no problem if they dont want to have a drink with me, lunch with me, or talk non-work issues with me. They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers.
Vivek Rajan wrote: Why should (3) and (4) matter in a IT co-worker? In (4), Would it be ok if their "other" activities were contrary to what you might consider acceptable ? For me in addition to (1) and (2), I would like to work with people who are honest about work issues (dont intentionally overlook bugs, etc). I really have no problem if they dont want to have a drink with me, lunch with me, or talk non-work issues with me. They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers. I think the general reply to your position is: "I manage people and work in teams. If the guy is an asseole but a great programmer, I don't want him around. He will cause more problems than he is worth." I work very closely with people in my work and not all of it is "how do I do this function or access that interface?". A lot of it is ideas and concepts which need someone who is willing to talk to you and you can get on with it. Look at Richard Branson, pretty successful guy. He goes out and gets rat faced with his employees. Look at his employees, quite a happy, well motivated and successful bunch. Additionally as I have said before computers are not my life and in fact I don't even have one at home, out of choice. So I would like to be able to relate to co-workers outside of pure technical terms. e.g. Sports, movies, books, science etc. Computers are not everything. Vivek Rajan wrote: They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers That is called "old world thinking" IMHO. That is how the big old bad companies were run and frankly that is not a life, that is a souless entity. I would rather be a bit less successful but having a good time with good people than be more successful and hating everyone I work with. Good relationships are so key to good work environments. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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First, the following is not directed at Qomi, but is directed at people that believe the crap that the cited article represents. What a pathetic piece of crackpot (for lack of a better term) journalism. Paraphrasing - "Women don't go into IT because of the geek factor." Well, women don't go into garbage pickup because they' don't want to haul other people's shit around all day too. Why? Because it's not "glamourous" work, either. Why does everyone feel the need to push people into jobs they either don't want or aren't qualified for? You want glamour? Be a freakin super model. You wanna be in IT? Be a programmer. But don't come whining to me about your freaking career choices or the fact that you think you were coerced into NOT choosing a more lucrative education. So what - you're black, asian, white, mexican, female, male, handicapped, blind, deaf, or lost most of your epidermal layer in a fiery car crash. Big fuckin deal. If you're qualified to do the job, and you want the job, then go out and get the damned job. Just don't sit there sniveling about how you thought all programmers where white male geeks with bad skin and no life, so you figured it wasn't for you. We all have the freedom to make our own choices, and and you made yours, so live with it or change. Adapt. Conquer. But don't you dare shed a tear for what might have been. What a pile of dog guano. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Well said, well said and once again, well said. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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What a bunch of crap. If women want to become programmers, then do what I did - start playing with computers when you're young to see if you really like them, study programming at college, get an entry-level job where you can learn from the more experienced people around you. In other words, put some effort into it. The image problems start at an early age, said Anne Cantelo, project director at the e-skills NTO. "Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." So girls are taking career advice from TV shows? Ooookay... However, even when women enter the IT profession, they are pigeonholed into traditional female roles, said Cantelo. "The majority of jobs held by women in IT are in HR, marketing and data analysis. Very few women hold positions on the board or even at senior management levels," she added. More BS. Go to your HR department and ask everyone there (men and women) how many of them want to be programmers but got stuck in HR instead. Actually, don't waste your time, the answer will be zero. The article boils down to a woman saying "I think programmers are geeky so wah I don't want to be a programmer but wah why aren't there more women programmers". Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage "Hey, you wanna go to the Espresso Pump and get sugared up on mochas?" -- Willow Rosenberg Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
First, perhaps I shouldn’t have posted the link? I did not intend to start a debate. There has been talk about who works with women and how many women are out there for a while, so this was more to give an idea of how many women are in IT. I thought the number she gave was low. The more I think about it though, it could be right. There are reasons other than those which she gave. For example women tend to have more domestic duties than their male partners. Michael Dunn wrote: What a bunch of crap. If women want to become programmers, then do what I did - start playing with computers when you're young to see if you really like them, study programming at college, get an entry-level job where you can learn from the more experienced people around you. In other words, put some effort into it. I can only speak for myself as I dont' have any female friends in the field. My first coding-esque experience was when my mother brought home a comedor64 when I was about 9or10YO. She was doing extra work as a highschool math tutor, and I believe on the students she was tutoring gave it to her. I remember typing in lines and lines of “…...130 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH 140 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH 150 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH….” When I was 11 and living with my father and he sent me to computer camp for the summer. There I was using some kind of Apple and the coding was similar but not quite the same. One big difference was I liked it a lot more, and I could do more. Maybe because I was older, maybe because I had better references and other people to work with? *shrug* So, imagine how pleased I was when I moved back with my mother and she bought be a Tandy(don’t remember the #s) for my birthday! I was thrilled and shocked. It even had modem! However, I wasn’t allowed to have it in my room, and my step-father basically took it over. I wasn’t allowed to even touch it until he got it ready. After it was ready all I was allowed to do on it was play games and use the word processor. I don’t know what I would have done if given the chance but I would have liked to have had it. When deciding what post secondary to take, I did an aptitude test. The areas I scored high on were analytical thinking, creativity, and something that had to do with caring for others. The top career suggestions I was given was kinesiology, acupuncture, herbalist. I went down the list until I found something that had to do with computers (I don’t’ even remembe
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What a bunch of crap. If women want to become programmers, then do what I did - start playing with computers when you're young to see if you really like them, study programming at college, get an entry-level job where you can learn from the more experienced people around you. In other words, put some effort into it. The image problems start at an early age, said Anne Cantelo, project director at the e-skills NTO. "Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." So girls are taking career advice from TV shows? Ooookay... However, even when women enter the IT profession, they are pigeonholed into traditional female roles, said Cantelo. "The majority of jobs held by women in IT are in HR, marketing and data analysis. Very few women hold positions on the board or even at senior management levels," she added. More BS. Go to your HR department and ask everyone there (men and women) how many of them want to be programmers but got stuck in HR instead. Actually, don't waste your time, the answer will be zero. The article boils down to a woman saying "I think programmers are geeky so wah I don't want to be a programmer but wah why aren't there more women programmers". Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage "Hey, you wanna go to the Espresso Pump and get sugared up on mochas?" -- Willow Rosenberg Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
You da' man, Mike!
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Michael Dunn wrote: they are pigeonholed into traditional female roles and who in particular would 'help' with this allocation.. Too many people scared that women will 'take their jobs', didn't they say something like that in the industrial revolution? Working outside the home full-time and overtime is over-rated, I'd love to see more of my kids growing up.
Alex wrote: "Working outside the home full-time and overtime is over-rated, I'd love to see more of my kids growing up." I very much agree. Telecommuting could allow a person to work-full time and see his/her kids grow up. "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
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First, the following is not directed at Qomi, but is directed at people that believe the crap that the cited article represents. What a pathetic piece of crackpot (for lack of a better term) journalism. Paraphrasing - "Women don't go into IT because of the geek factor." Well, women don't go into garbage pickup because they' don't want to haul other people's shit around all day too. Why? Because it's not "glamourous" work, either. Why does everyone feel the need to push people into jobs they either don't want or aren't qualified for? You want glamour? Be a freakin super model. You wanna be in IT? Be a programmer. But don't come whining to me about your freaking career choices or the fact that you think you were coerced into NOT choosing a more lucrative education. So what - you're black, asian, white, mexican, female, male, handicapped, blind, deaf, or lost most of your epidermal layer in a fiery car crash. Big fuckin deal. If you're qualified to do the job, and you want the job, then go out and get the damned job. Just don't sit there sniveling about how you thought all programmers where white male geeks with bad skin and no life, so you figured it wasn't for you. We all have the freedom to make our own choices, and and you made yours, so live with it or change. Adapt. Conquer. But don't you dare shed a tear for what might have been. What a pile of dog guano. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
:laugh: true enough. I don't like how there was no reference to where the number came from. But as I think about it the numbers do seem about right, though I am in a different country. Like I said in a post above… I posted it more as a reference for those wondering how many women are in the field. I have seen girls (not to be confused with women) being discouraged, where boys are encouraged to get involved with computers. However, I don't think this happens so much anymore. "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
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Vivek Rajan wrote: Why should (3) and (4) matter in a IT co-worker? In (4), Would it be ok if their "other" activities were contrary to what you might consider acceptable ? For me in addition to (1) and (2), I would like to work with people who are honest about work issues (dont intentionally overlook bugs, etc). I really have no problem if they dont want to have a drink with me, lunch with me, or talk non-work issues with me. They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers. I think the general reply to your position is: "I manage people and work in teams. If the guy is an asseole but a great programmer, I don't want him around. He will cause more problems than he is worth." I work very closely with people in my work and not all of it is "how do I do this function or access that interface?". A lot of it is ideas and concepts which need someone who is willing to talk to you and you can get on with it. Look at Richard Branson, pretty successful guy. He goes out and gets rat faced with his employees. Look at his employees, quite a happy, well motivated and successful bunch. Additionally as I have said before computers are not my life and in fact I don't even have one at home, out of choice. So I would like to be able to relate to co-workers outside of pure technical terms. e.g. Sports, movies, books, science etc. Computers are not everything. Vivek Rajan wrote: They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers That is called "old world thinking" IMHO. That is how the big old bad companies were run and frankly that is not a life, that is a souless entity. I would rather be a bit less successful but having a good time with good people than be more successful and hating everyone I work with. Good relationships are so key to good work environments. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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"Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." My 8 year old daughter is facinated by anything to do with science and computers. She also doesn't seem to mind my pony tail.
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What a bunch of crap. If women want to become programmers, then do what I did - start playing with computers when you're young to see if you really like them, study programming at college, get an entry-level job where you can learn from the more experienced people around you. In other words, put some effort into it. The image problems start at an early age, said Anne Cantelo, project director at the e-skills NTO. "Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." So girls are taking career advice from TV shows? Ooookay... However, even when women enter the IT profession, they are pigeonholed into traditional female roles, said Cantelo. "The majority of jobs held by women in IT are in HR, marketing and data analysis. Very few women hold positions on the board or even at senior management levels," she added. More BS. Go to your HR department and ask everyone there (men and women) how many of them want to be programmers but got stuck in HR instead. Actually, don't waste your time, the answer will be zero. The article boils down to a woman saying "I think programmers are geeky so wah I don't want to be a programmer but wah why aren't there more women programmers". Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage "Hey, you wanna go to the Espresso Pump and get sugared up on mochas?" -- Willow Rosenberg Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
Michael Dunn wrote: The image problems start at an early age, said Anne Cantelo, project director at the e-skills NTO. "Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." Bwahahahahahaha !!!! The question is, do we WANT these people, male or female, in our industry ??? Anyone who watches the soaps is a certified moron IMO. Cartoons, on the other hand, rock. What cartoons present a negative image of IT, and what intelligent person takes advice on what is cool from a talking rat ? Michael Dunn wrote: Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. Amen to that - and I'd hold to that comment for any subsection of society that takes an 'I'm oppressed or I'd be doing better' approach instead of getting off their butts and DOING something. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Thanks for pointing that out, I fixed my original post...ooops :-O I don't know that women are put off by the "geeky" stereotype, as much as "girls" are. Even that I think has changed a lot in the last few years. I think of the younger programmers, there will be significantly more women than in years before. "No one knows what power lies yet undevelopped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
qomi wrote: Even that I think has changed a lot in the last few years. I think of the younger programmers, there will be significantly more women than in years before. I think you're right. Change comes in two waves. First of all there's the pioneers, then it takes a generation for society as a whole to get over the novelty and realise it's OK for them too. More bus drivers in Hobart are female than male. In theory people were saying there's nothing wrong with that when I was 15, but in practice, I don't recall ever seeing a bus driven by a female. All humans are essentially conformist, and when female plumbers make the paper, it doesn't inspire other girls to do the same thing. I'm pleased that my daughter is growing up when she is, I think she's just in time for a society who not only accepts that women can do pretty much anything men can ( I used to single out peeing standing up, but there are websites for that now :-)), but that there is no reason to make a fuss if they decide to do something that has been percieved as traditionally male. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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"Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." My 8 year old daughter is facinated by anything to do with science and computers. She also doesn't seem to mind my pony tail.
Well, who does she look up to more than her daddy ? My 5 yo is the same, all over the PC whenever she can. Next upgrade ( soon ) she will inherit my Athlon 700. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Qomi, here are my criteria for working with fellow IT people: 1. Are they enthusiastic, willing to learn, share knowledge and push themselves? 2. Can they code and grasp concepts quite quickly 3. If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? 4. Do they have other things in their life apart from IT? (my preference is Yes) and that is about it. So whether you are female/male, blue/green, three eyed or just the usual two, I won't let it affect the working relationship. I wonder if I would think diferently about there being not such a huge problem between male and female IT people if I was female. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
I fail, because I don't drink ( although I tend to get along with people OK, so will that do ? ), and I have nothing much in my life apart from IT. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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First, the following is not directed at Qomi, but is directed at people that believe the crap that the cited article represents. What a pathetic piece of crackpot (for lack of a better term) journalism. Paraphrasing - "Women don't go into IT because of the geek factor." Well, women don't go into garbage pickup because they' don't want to haul other people's shit around all day too. Why? Because it's not "glamourous" work, either. Why does everyone feel the need to push people into jobs they either don't want or aren't qualified for? You want glamour? Be a freakin super model. You wanna be in IT? Be a programmer. But don't come whining to me about your freaking career choices or the fact that you think you were coerced into NOT choosing a more lucrative education. So what - you're black, asian, white, mexican, female, male, handicapped, blind, deaf, or lost most of your epidermal layer in a fiery car crash. Big fuckin deal. If you're qualified to do the job, and you want the job, then go out and get the damned job. Just don't sit there sniveling about how you thought all programmers where white male geeks with bad skin and no life, so you figured it wasn't for you. We all have the freedom to make our own choices, and and you made yours, so live with it or change. Adapt. Conquer. But don't you dare shed a tear for what might have been. What a pile of dog guano. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
As ever, an eloquent post, which I agree with wholeheartedly. My sister has recently had therapy and currently blames all of her lifes problems to me hitting er on the back with a twig when she was 2. My mum asked me if this happened, to which I said 'who cares' ? I was *5* and she was *2*, the real issue is why can't she take responsibility for her own life. John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: What a pile of dog guano. Guano is specifically bird droppings. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Sorry Michael, but I don't agree. Never underestimate the power of social conditioning - like it or not, we're all guided by the way we're brought up and the society we live in. Unless you fall into it by accident (which can happen of course), most people's choice of career is based on their (very limited) experience and perception. Our perception of the world we live in is very strongly perceived by how we're brought up, and by our peer group. Lets face it...when was the last time you heard a crowd of teenage girls discussing computers? ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
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"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul WatsonAndy Metcalfe wrote: Never underestimate the power of social conditioning - like it or not, we're all guided by the way we're brought up and the society we live in. Um, hello, I know this is the Internet, the wasteland of debates, but did you even read my post before jumping at the Reply link? To quote myself: Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. Replace "Women" with "People" and you have my reply. --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage "Hey, you wanna go to the Espresso Pump and get sugared up on mochas?" -- Willow Rosenberg Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
