Middle East
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
some Christian fundamentalists
Yeah, lets be sure to worry about those 4 guys. That'll help us solve the problem. :rolleyes: "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
lets be sure to worry about those 4 guys
If it were only 4, Stan, I wouldn't worry. But there are more.
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A lot of our local media spins George to make him look like an idiot. He's really not, he has made some bad decissions as all presidents do (they are only human). But then, threw no fault of their own, the internatinal media picks up the George bashing storys and spins them some more. Before you know it poor George is wearing a clown outfit and attending kids parties. Personally, I like the guy. Don't agree 100% with everything he has done but he's done alot for the citizens of this country and others. (And he hasn't used any cigars) heh :-) Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
he's done alot for the citizens of this country and others
That should say "to", not "for".
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Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... -John Lennon
-Prakash -- modified at 11:01 Saturday 28th January, 2006
Be nice, but in the real world this will NEVER happen.. Humans like conflict and seek it out... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Absolutely correct. In fact, if one makes a careful, unbiased study of history most human conflict was not caused by religious differences but by purely secular,economic,territorial,racial reasons. Blameing religion for it all merely takes us further away from any possible solution. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
Blameing religion for it all merely takes us further away from any possible solution.
More prople have been killed in the name of god or some other nonsense. So, religion is the common catalyst. While I see your point, I very strongly disagree with it. However, people can use religion as a scape goat in masking there real reasons for hostility, so nothing is 100%... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Be nice, but in the real world this will NEVER happen.. Humans like conflict and seek it out... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
your pessimism/realism shouldn't stop you working towards this goal. Maybe we can't make this world a better place. But we can stop making it worse.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist -
Stan Shannon wrote:
lets be sure to worry about those 4 guys
If it were only 4, Stan, I wouldn't worry. But there are more.
Indeed. I watch a lot of crap they spew out in various formats. I like to call it "abstract comedy". :)
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your pessimism/realism shouldn't stop you working towards this goal. Maybe we can't make this world a better place. But we can stop making it worse.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighistpeterchen wrote:
But we can stop making it worse.
There is only one solution to that problem, and it's not pretty. People, black, white, christian, muslims, whatever, will have to die due to a common catastrophy. That's the only way, IMO, to make people see others as partners rather than adversaries.
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It's getting pretty messey over there with Hamas being elected. I really hope they stop beating the terror drums and forget about Isreal. Between this, Iraq and Iran, this could (and most likely will) destabalize the region. As a US citizen I think we should build structers in Isreal next to the buildings Hamas wants to blow up, maybe that will discurage them? I'm not sure what else anyone can do. It will take all the countries (Russa, UK, Germany, France etc...) getting together and co-operating. Thats in itself is extreamly rare. We all need to get our ***** in order, this could so easly escalate and get totally out of control. :-( My 2 Cents... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
Between this, Iraq and Iran, this could (and most likely will) destabalize the region.
You mean that the region wasn't already destabalised?
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
As a US citizen I think we should build structers in Isreal next to the buildings Hamas wants to blow up, maybe that will discurage them?
Or make them more determined - Nothing like a good challenge!
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
We all need to get our ***** in order, this could so easly escalate and get totally out of control
Perhaps Hamas was elected because it already has escalated. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Blameing religion for it all merely takes us further away from any possible solution.
More prople have been killed in the name of god or some other nonsense. So, religion is the common catalyst. While I see your point, I very strongly disagree with it. However, people can use religion as a scape goat in masking there real reasons for hostility, so nothing is 100%... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
More prople have been killed in the name of god or some other nonsense
I have to ask where you get that from. I think it is debateable as to whether any of humanity's most destructive conflicts were related to religion in even the most remote way. And the few that were could be easily interpreted in other ways and attributed to other causes. If one looks at all the causes that have compelled people to kill each other, religion appears pretty far down the list. We are currently at one of those rare cusps in history when religion appears to be playing a major role in contrubuting to human conflict which I think skews our interpretations of history. But even now I think it is arguable that the violence is only superficially about religion. I continue to insist that solving the problem of religion will in no way solve the problem of human violence. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Stan Shannon wrote:
lets be sure to worry about those 4 guys
If it were only 4, Stan, I wouldn't worry. But there are more.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
But there are more.
Than I would like to know where they are hiding. I have lived my entire life in the bible belt, travel widely through it today, go to church on a fairly regular basis, and I haven't seen the slightest hint of this looming spectre of hordes of Christian loonies destroying American civilzation. I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly. Christian fundamentalism is just about the most impotent, weak and well maintained threat of all those which currently face our civilization. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
More prople have been killed in the name of god or some other nonsense
I have to ask where you get that from. I think it is debateable as to whether any of humanity's most destructive conflicts were related to religion in even the most remote way. And the few that were could be easily interpreted in other ways and attributed to other causes. If one looks at all the causes that have compelled people to kill each other, religion appears pretty far down the list. We are currently at one of those rare cusps in history when religion appears to be playing a major role in contrubuting to human conflict which I think skews our interpretations of history. But even now I think it is arguable that the violence is only superficially about religion. I continue to insist that solving the problem of religion will in no way solve the problem of human violence. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
For a few examples check out this link: http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=holy+war&btnG=Search+News [^] or if thats not enough: [http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\\](http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\)[[^](http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\)] Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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For a few examples check out this link: http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=holy+war&btnG=Search+News [^] or if thats not enough: [http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\\](http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\)[[^](http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\)] Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Sorry, but that looks more like media sensationalism than an analysis of human conflict. Every time I think about this issue, I am always reminded of the Ancient Greeks. Here we had people who were basically of the same race, spoke very similar languages, worsipped exactly the same Gods, had as much in common as human beings could possibly have - and they fought some of the most violent wars in human history against one another for generations. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
But there are more.
Than I would like to know where they are hiding. I have lived my entire life in the bible belt, travel widely through it today, go to church on a fairly regular basis, and I haven't seen the slightest hint of this looming spectre of hordes of Christian loonies destroying American civilzation. I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly. Christian fundamentalism is just about the most impotent, weak and well maintained threat of all those which currently face our civilization. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly.
Lol, you christian fundamentalists are just as bad. This is a really funny statment! Can't you just hear the misplaced christion superiority? Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Sorry, but that looks more like media sensationalism than an analysis of human conflict. Every time I think about this issue, I am always reminded of the Ancient Greeks. Here we had people who were basically of the same race, spoke very similar languages, worsipped exactly the same Gods, had as much in common as human beings could possibly have - and they fought some of the most violent wars in human history against one another for generations. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Whatever you say. I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days. It boils down to this... No one group is better then any other because they believe the earth was flat. To go around trying to persuade people to your point of view is one thing, but if and when they don't follow your logic to excommunicate them, torture them or blow them up is ultimately self defeating and breeds ignorance, hatred and bigotry. All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly.
Lol, you christian fundamentalists are just as bad. This is a really funny statment! Can't you just hear the misplaced christion superiority? Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
you christian fundamentalists are just as bad
How can you possibly say that? I'm closer to being an athiest than I am to being a fundamentalist. My entire bible thumping family considers me to be a flaming anti-christian liberal. I was bravely fighting the pro-evolution battle as a 12 year old child in a small cow town in Western Oklahoma long before you were even born, dick head. So show me some fucking respect. But I am also able to open my eyes and look at the world for what it really is. There simply is no actual threat from any thing even in the most remote sense relating to a 'Christian theocracy'. The notion is so far removed from reality that it belongs to a category of conspiracy theories usually associated with 'Area 51'. They simply do not exist. THey are not there. They are a figment of your imagination. An illusion. Christianity is hanging on by its teeth as a force to exert even the most humble influence on modern society. The notion that it represents any kind of danger to our civilization is pathetical hysterical and stupid. On the other hand, the entire Muslim world is exploding with rage at anything that is not of their world view. To not see that, to minimize it, to ratinalize it as something other that what is so obviously is, is an act of suicidal insanity. It has nothing to do with feelings of 'superiority', but everything to do with practical considerations of simple survival. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Whatever you say. I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days. It boils down to this... No one group is better then any other because they believe the earth was flat. To go around trying to persuade people to your point of view is one thing, but if and when they don't follow your logic to excommunicate them, torture them or blow them up is ultimately self defeating and breeds ignorance, hatred and bigotry. All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days
I seriously doubt that you have the slightest frigging clue about the last few thousands years of human history aside from what you've learned from google. Could you cite a single valid source?
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place
Well, fine. But I do not see anyone learning that lesson. Certainly not those who would so throughly marginalize any philosophy or way of viewing the world that is not sanctioned by the modern secular/humanist left. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:00 Saturday 28th January, 2006
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days
I seriously doubt that you have the slightest frigging clue about the last few thousands years of human history aside from what you've learned from google. Could you cite a single valid source?
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place
Well, fine. But I do not see anyone learning that lesson. Certainly not those who would so throughly marginalize any philosophy or way of viewing the world that is not sanctioned by the modern secular/humanist left. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:00 Saturday 28th January, 2006
Stan Shannon wrote:
I seriously doubt that you have the slightest frigging clue about the last few thousands years of human history aside from what you've learned from google. Could you cite a single valid source?
A souce of the misguided teachings? I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
you christian fundamentalists are just as bad
How can you possibly say that? I'm closer to being an athiest than I am to being a fundamentalist. My entire bible thumping family considers me to be a flaming anti-christian liberal. I was bravely fighting the pro-evolution battle as a 12 year old child in a small cow town in Western Oklahoma long before you were even born, dick head. So show me some fucking respect. But I am also able to open my eyes and look at the world for what it really is. There simply is no actual threat from any thing even in the most remote sense relating to a 'Christian theocracy'. The notion is so far removed from reality that it belongs to a category of conspiracy theories usually associated with 'Area 51'. They simply do not exist. THey are not there. They are a figment of your imagination. An illusion. Christianity is hanging on by its teeth as a force to exert even the most humble influence on modern society. The notion that it represents any kind of danger to our civilization is pathetical hysterical and stupid. On the other hand, the entire Muslim world is exploding with rage at anything that is not of their world view. To not see that, to minimize it, to ratinalize it as something other that what is so obviously is, is an act of suicidal insanity. It has nothing to do with feelings of 'superiority', but everything to do with practical considerations of simple survival. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I was bravely fighting the pro-evolution battle as a 12 year old child in a small cow town in Western Oklahoma long before you were even born.
I wasn't saying you personally, christians as a group.
Stan Shannon wrote:
There simply is no actual threat from any thing even in the most remote sense relating to a 'Christian theocracy'
Stan Shannon wrote:
On the other hand, the entire Muslim world is exploding with rage at anything that is not of their world view.
Muslem fundamentalists = Active Other fundamentalists = Passive They all want the same thing, to have the only real religion. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I seriously doubt that you have the slightest frigging clue about the last few thousands years of human history aside from what you've learned from google. Could you cite a single valid source?
A souce of the misguided teachings? I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society
Precisely as I thought. Like most making those kinds of claims you have not the slightest clue of what you are talking about. Tell you what, what don't you go to google and find the last actual war that was fought for reasons directly related to religion? (Our current 'war on terror' excepted, of course). Has religion played an important role in human culture? Well, fuck yes it has. In fact, religion largly defines most of what human culture actually is. But, so what? Has that been entirely bad? Would we even be here if it had not been so? How do you eliminate such a pervasive and fundamental concept? ANd if so, what do you replace it with? What is the substitute? Government? Hollywood? Humanism? And if you do, how do you prevent those things from becoming religions in their own right. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:18 Saturday 28th January, 2006
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society
Precisely as I thought. Like most making those kinds of claims you have not the slightest clue of what you are talking about. Tell you what, what don't you go to google and find the last actual war that was fought for reasons directly related to religion? (Our current 'war on terror' excepted, of course). Has religion played an important role in human culture? Well, fuck yes it has. In fact, religion largly defines most of what human culture actually is. But, so what? Has that been entirely bad? Would we even be here if it had not been so? How do you eliminate such a pervasive and fundamental concept? ANd if so, what do you replace it with? What is the substitute? Government? Hollywood? Humanism? And if you do, how do you prevent those things from becoming religions in their own right. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:18 Saturday 28th January, 2006
Your right, its not entirely bad. In fact there are a lot of good things in Religion. However, one belief system is no more valid then another. And when that belief system is used as a club to harm others its time to "kick it to the curb". It is obvious we do not agree on this issue, and thats fine by me. Each person needs to formulate there own answer the question of religion. My view is: It was good in the past It has been used to justify wars / conflicts It's importance needs to be deminished, people need to decide what makes sense to them and what they believe. Not follow some text some guy wrote thousands of years ago. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).