Theory vs. facts
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Well, I'm quite frustrated to say the least. To make a long story short, I am a theory type person .. I generally dont talk to people in straight facts, but rather in theory (I'm one for conspiracy theories -- although not too obsessive). I have had yet another encounter with a person whom I work with which I cant talk to because I cant produce facts (times, dates, exact names of people) on the spot about whatever subject it may be. So, should I start doing some mad studying for facts on all subjects I may talk to people about? Should I not talk to people about anything at all? I know what I'm thinking and feel, I just need to work on how I present my ideas and thoughts to others and how to effectively respond to them (which in this case is by immediately giving them factual answers ). Anywho, thanks for listening to my problem. Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
You know Travis, The most simple things in life can become the most complicated. But then, tis that you bullshit yourself a lot. If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true end if Remember when you were a kid. You talked to people a lot, easily. Why? Because you had fun explaining your idea to someone. Why shouldn't you now, heh ¿ Antoine Be:laugh: not:eek: Coming home from Vancouver. I look like a hobo! ;p lol
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You know Travis, The most simple things in life can become the most complicated. But then, tis that you bullshit yourself a lot. If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true end if Remember when you were a kid. You talked to people a lot, easily. Why? Because you had fun explaining your idea to someone. Why shouldn't you now, heh ¿ Antoine Be:laugh: not:eek: Coming home from Vancouver. I look like a hobo! ;p lol
First off, thanks for your input, Banquo_ws wrote: If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true I'm not saying that I'm having factual trouble with all the little simple things, but rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time .. it's hard to give facts on those since the facts may be scarce. One of the topics was about religion (of which I am open-minded to other people about), but how Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is. For the average American, life is easier if your a Christian and not something else which may be not as socially exceptable like Wicca for instance (reasons being that religions like this have too many tainted and misleading fact that have been attached to them). Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
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First off, thanks for your input, Banquo_ws wrote: If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true I'm not saying that I'm having factual trouble with all the little simple things, but rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time .. it's hard to give facts on those since the facts may be scarce. One of the topics was about religion (of which I am open-minded to other people about), but how Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is. For the average American, life is easier if your a Christian and not something else which may be not as socially exceptable like Wicca for instance (reasons being that religions like this have too many tainted and misleading fact that have been attached to them). Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
Travis D. Mathison wrote: rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time There is a lot of this about, I admit. I agree with your sentiments of religions, there is so much misleading propoganda published and used on religions that it is impossible to decide what is the truth. As to your comment in your first post about gathering more information, I suggest that you first learn how to deciper whether information is pertinent or garbage when learning about stuff. For instance I am keen to know the real truths about IPOs but the information is pretty sketchy and a lot of the stuff is misleading, so I make a habit of researching the credentials of the Authors before reading the guff. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Well, I'm quite frustrated to say the least. To make a long story short, I am a theory type person .. I generally dont talk to people in straight facts, but rather in theory (I'm one for conspiracy theories -- although not too obsessive). I have had yet another encounter with a person whom I work with which I cant talk to because I cant produce facts (times, dates, exact names of people) on the spot about whatever subject it may be. So, should I start doing some mad studying for facts on all subjects I may talk to people about? Should I not talk to people about anything at all? I know what I'm thinking and feel, I just need to work on how I present my ideas and thoughts to others and how to effectively respond to them (which in this case is by immediately giving them factual answers ). Anywho, thanks for listening to my problem. Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
Yeah, I always hate it when someone screws up a perfectly good argument with facts. Vague theoritical generalities make for much more interesting and powerful debate. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
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First off, thanks for your input, Banquo_ws wrote: If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true I'm not saying that I'm having factual trouble with all the little simple things, but rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time .. it's hard to give facts on those since the facts may be scarce. One of the topics was about religion (of which I am open-minded to other people about), but how Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is. For the average American, life is easier if your a Christian and not something else which may be not as socially exceptable like Wicca for instance (reasons being that religions like this have too many tainted and misleading fact that have been attached to them). Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
Travis D. Mathison wrote: Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is Really? I've never found that to be the case. I grew up as something of a heretic/Athiest type in the middle of the buckle of the bible belt (Oklahoma). I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts of such topics as evolution, for example, compared to how closed minded and intolerant more 'liberal' non-religious types are of my ideas on, for example, issues such as the 2nd amendment. Sure, as Christianity is the dominant traditional moral autority of our culture, one would expect to more frequently encounter those who would 'push' their points of view. But I suspect it would be the same if Wicca were the dominant religion in competition with newly emerging religions as well as the growing moral authority being imposed by the federal state. And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
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Yeah, I always hate it when someone screws up a perfectly good argument with facts. Vague theoritical generalities make for much more interesting and powerful debate. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
LOL. :)
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Well, I'm quite frustrated to say the least. To make a long story short, I am a theory type person .. I generally dont talk to people in straight facts, but rather in theory (I'm one for conspiracy theories -- although not too obsessive). I have had yet another encounter with a person whom I work with which I cant talk to because I cant produce facts (times, dates, exact names of people) on the spot about whatever subject it may be. So, should I start doing some mad studying for facts on all subjects I may talk to people about? Should I not talk to people about anything at all? I know what I'm thinking and feel, I just need to work on how I present my ideas and thoughts to others and how to effectively respond to them (which in this case is by immediately giving them factual answers ). Anywho, thanks for listening to my problem. Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
Travis D. Mathison wrote: So, should I start doing some mad studying for facts on all subjects I may talk to people about? Not if you don't care to convince the other party that your opinion is valid... You can talk to people all day long telling them your opinions and views on things, but only when challenged do the facts become important. If you want to prove a point or support your opinion beyond just being your guess or expression of your perception of things you have to present facts. Theory that is not supported by facts is nothing more than someone's assumption and holds no true value in an argument. If someone have no facts to support their views on the subject they most likely know very little about the subject. Why would anyone get in argument about something they know very little or nothing about is beyond my understanding? P.S. The above is just my opinion and I have no facts to prove it. :)
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Well, I'm quite frustrated to say the least. To make a long story short, I am a theory type person .. I generally dont talk to people in straight facts, but rather in theory (I'm one for conspiracy theories -- although not too obsessive). I have had yet another encounter with a person whom I work with which I cant talk to because I cant produce facts (times, dates, exact names of people) on the spot about whatever subject it may be. So, should I start doing some mad studying for facts on all subjects I may talk to people about? Should I not talk to people about anything at all? I know what I'm thinking and feel, I just need to work on how I present my ideas and thoughts to others and how to effectively respond to them (which in this case is by immediately giving them factual answers ). Anywho, thanks for listening to my problem. Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
I don't quite understand what you mean by theories, but I'll take a shot at answering. If the subject you are discussing is analytical (math, science, computer programming), then it is best to use facts. If the subject is more intuitive (psychology, books/stories, music) then talk in theories. Of course, it also depends on the personality of the person you are speaking with. "I am the one in ten, a number on a list I am the one in ten, even though I don't exist Nobody knows me, but I'm always there A statistical reminder of a world that doesn't care" - UB40
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First off, thanks for your input, Banquo_ws wrote: If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true I'm not saying that I'm having factual trouble with all the little simple things, but rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time .. it's hard to give facts on those since the facts may be scarce. One of the topics was about religion (of which I am open-minded to other people about), but how Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is. For the average American, life is easier if your a Christian and not something else which may be not as socially exceptable like Wicca for instance (reasons being that religions like this have too many tainted and misleading fact that have been attached to them). Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
For the average American, life is easier if your a Christian and not something else which may be not as socially exceptable like Wicca for instance (reasons being that religions like this have too many tainted and misleading fact that have been attached to them). HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA gasps for breath HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sorry. Been on both sides of this, Christian and atheist. I haven't noticed a bit of difference. I ignore the Christians when they are being assholes and I ignore the atheists when they are. Neither side realizes when they are being assholes because they think what they are doing is right. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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First off, thanks for your input, Banquo_ws wrote: If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true I'm not saying that I'm having factual trouble with all the little simple things, but rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time .. it's hard to give facts on those since the facts may be scarce. One of the topics was about religion (of which I am open-minded to other people about), but how Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is. For the average American, life is easier if your a Christian and not something else which may be not as socially exceptable like Wicca for instance (reasons being that religions like this have too many tainted and misleading fact that have been attached to them). Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
I'm not saying that I'm having factual trouble with all the little simple things, but rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time .. it's hard to give facts on those since the facts may be scarce. I have a theory that I keep a pet dragon in my closet. I have assorted evidence such as it is always a mess in there. But I can't back it up with any evidence. Will you believe my theory? Please? Pretty please with sugar on top? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Travis D. Mathison wrote: Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is Really? I've never found that to be the case. I grew up as something of a heretic/Athiest type in the middle of the buckle of the bible belt (Oklahoma). I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts of such topics as evolution, for example, compared to how closed minded and intolerant more 'liberal' non-religious types are of my ideas on, for example, issues such as the 2nd amendment. Sure, as Christianity is the dominant traditional moral autority of our culture, one would expect to more frequently encounter those who would 'push' their points of view. But I suspect it would be the same if Wicca were the dominant religion in competition with newly emerging religions as well as the growing moral authority being imposed by the federal state. And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
Stan Shannon wrote: I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts Wow, that is good to hear. Perhaps I simply have had a bit of misfortune and have run into wrong people / areas .. Stan Shannon wrote: And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. Maybe it depends on where you live. However, given that Christianity has become the most popular religion, I could only assume that there should be ample information on the subject as to which most ppl wouldn't be too misleaded. Wicca on the other hand .. most think that it is has to do with devil worshiping when its anything but -- Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
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I don't quite understand what you mean by theories, but I'll take a shot at answering. If the subject you are discussing is analytical (math, science, computer programming), then it is best to use facts. If the subject is more intuitive (psychology, books/stories, music) then talk in theories. Of course, it also depends on the personality of the person you are speaking with. "I am the one in ten, a number on a list I am the one in ten, even though I don't exist Nobody knows me, but I'm always there A statistical reminder of a world that doesn't care" - UB40
In this case I'm talking about the "more intuitive (psychology, books/stories, music)" types of subjects and it is the fact-type personality person that I'm talking with. Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
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Yeah, I always hate it when someone screws up a perfectly good argument with facts. Vague theoritical generalities make for much more interesting and powerful debate. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
I hear your sarcasm loud and clear, and I know that facts obviously are the power of most debates .. this is why I attempt to pick debates that I know enough facts about as to where I can argue effectively -- however, I sometimes through myself into some that I'm not ready for (like I experienced with the person today)... Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
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In this case I'm talking about the "more intuitive (psychology, books/stories, music)" types of subjects and it is the fact-type personality person that I'm talking with. Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
Well, then you should use facts or more direct (rather than vague) theoretical arguments. Analytical people won't understand (or believe) unless they can understand the point of your argument. "I am the one in ten, a number on a list I am the one in ten, even though I don't exist Nobody knows me, but I'm always there A statistical reminder of a world that doesn't care" - UB40
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I hear your sarcasm loud and clear, and I know that facts obviously are the power of most debates .. this is why I attempt to pick debates that I know enough facts about as to where I can argue effectively -- however, I sometimes through myself into some that I'm not ready for (like I experienced with the person today)... Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
I couldn't resist. ;P Actually, as someone who loves to argue, I've always found that the best way to win an argument is not to concentrate on facts or to try to establish some sort of theoritical framework. You just have to realize that *any* argument almost invariably contains some logical inconsistancy of some kind. If you can get your opponent off balance by being the first to take advantage of logical inconsistencies in their reasoning you have a good chance of winning. Of course, with something such as religion that is difficult, because, first, you have to have more knowledge of their religion in general than do they, and, second, their arguments are not always easily assailed by logic, as faith, not logic as such, is the intellectual foundation of their reasoning. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
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First off, thanks for your input, Banquo_ws wrote: If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true I'm not saying that I'm having factual trouble with all the little simple things, but rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time .. it's hard to give facts on those since the facts may be scarce. One of the topics was about religion (of which I am open-minded to other people about), but how Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is. For the average American, life is easier if your a Christian and not something else which may be not as socially exceptable like Wicca for instance (reasons being that religions like this have too many tainted and misleading fact that have been attached to them). Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
Hi Travis, Glad to hear your better than I thought! :) Well, about the conspiracy things... Lay off the X-Files. I have a long time ago..And here's why. Given that we'll never either prove or disprove those things, given that there is so many simpler things out there that are fun and more down to earth, given that 'paradise is closer to the children and ignorants' -Jesus and thusly, after the wise man words, I felt that indeed, what'S it to me? Will I be happier if I see a ufo/etc/... No. I won't. When people talk to me about those kind of unprovable things, I say 'uh-huh' and go away quietly. They're just not fun... Get Real, I tend to want to say. ;) Antoine ;) Coming home from Vancouver. I look like a hobo! ;p lol
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Stan Shannon wrote: I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts Wow, that is good to hear. Perhaps I simply have had a bit of misfortune and have run into wrong people / areas .. Stan Shannon wrote: And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. Maybe it depends on where you live. However, given that Christianity has become the most popular religion, I could only assume that there should be ample information on the subject as to which most ppl wouldn't be too misleaded. Wicca on the other hand .. most think that it is has to do with devil worshiping when its anything but -- Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
I think half the problem is we remember the jerks and fail to realize they are 1 in 100,000. Then you get people who are more about wanting to live in a world free of religion and are overly sensitive to everything. Also, you have the strangest beast out there who are the ones that support any religion but Christianity for reasons as logical as 'just because'. I am a HUGE supporter of freedom for all religions. Hell, I am even a supporter of a community having the limited ability to express themselves through their government. If that includes religion, that is fine by me as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. My biggest concern with a lot of the anti-religion stuff going on is that it might be singling out Christianity. This could be because the Christians are the only ones bending the rules or it could be because groups like the ALCU are turning a blind eye toward other religions. Personally, I think it is human nature to express ourselves. I have a feeling rule bending by non-Christian groups tends to get ignored. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Travis D. Mathison wrote: Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is Really? I've never found that to be the case. I grew up as something of a heretic/Athiest type in the middle of the buckle of the bible belt (Oklahoma). I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts of such topics as evolution, for example, compared to how closed minded and intolerant more 'liberal' non-religious types are of my ideas on, for example, issues such as the 2nd amendment. Sure, as Christianity is the dominant traditional moral autority of our culture, one would expect to more frequently encounter those who would 'push' their points of view. But I suspect it would be the same if Wicca were the dominant religion in competition with newly emerging religions as well as the growing moral authority being imposed by the federal state. And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. But most of which is at least 50 years in the past so lest move on right? Christianity is still being pushed on us, in very subtle ways. I live in Canada. Here the majority of our stat. holidays are Christian. How many are of another religion? I have been stunned,when watching many a children's show turn Christian. But faiths like Wicca, Buddhism, and Scientology in Canada are handled gingerly and in low voices. I really doubt that Christianity is the most practiced religion in Canada. Even if you count the people who attend church but don't know anything about their own faith. The majority of Christians I have met are either the type that try to convert you, or are the type that are Christians in name only(meaning they have never read the bible and don't know much about their 'faith'). I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
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Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. But most of which is at least 50 years in the past so lest move on right? Christianity is still being pushed on us, in very subtle ways. I live in Canada. Here the majority of our stat. holidays are Christian. How many are of another religion? I have been stunned,when watching many a children's show turn Christian. But faiths like Wicca, Buddhism, and Scientology in Canada are handled gingerly and in low voices. I really doubt that Christianity is the most practiced religion in Canada. Even if you count the people who attend church but don't know anything about their own faith. The majority of Christians I have met are either the type that try to convert you, or are the type that are Christians in name only(meaning they have never read the bible and don't know much about their 'faith'). I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
qomi wrote: Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I mean, you could say that the WTC was destroyed 'in the name of Islam' but we were immidiately assured that this was not the case. So, in the same sense, if you discount the occassional lunatic misusing the religion - what crimes? Frankly, as I survey the "great" religions of the world, Christianity comes off relatiely crime free compared to others. qomi wrote: I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs Well, all I can do is speak from experience. Twenty years ago I had many friends. Some were Chrisitan some were of a more athiestic "liberal" liberal mind set. The Christian friends knew that I believed that the bible was not the literal word of God, that I "believed in evolution" and many other non-Christian principles and philosophies. Dispite all this they are still accepting of me and I am still counted among their friends. I consider that to be tolerant. However, my other friends, when they discovered that I regularly voted republican, that I did not support such political principls as abortion, "gay rights" or "civil rights" (for constitutional reason, not religious ones) they turned their backs on me and have never been my friends since that time. I consider that to be intolerant. Most christians I know understand their religion very well, especially the tenet of forgiveness. I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
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Yeah, I always hate it when someone screws up a perfectly good argument with facts. Vague theoritical generalities make for much more interesting and powerful debate. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
I see there is someone else out there who enjoys debates for the thrill value. It's like boxing, but without the broken jaws (well, unless you pick the wrong guy to argue with...) ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "DON'T MOVE! It can't see you if you don't move" - Sam Neil talking to me as John Simmons walked into the office.