Theory vs. facts
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Travis D. Mathison wrote: Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is Really? I've never found that to be the case. I grew up as something of a heretic/Athiest type in the middle of the buckle of the bible belt (Oklahoma). I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts of such topics as evolution, for example, compared to how closed minded and intolerant more 'liberal' non-religious types are of my ideas on, for example, issues such as the 2nd amendment. Sure, as Christianity is the dominant traditional moral autority of our culture, one would expect to more frequently encounter those who would 'push' their points of view. But I suspect it would be the same if Wicca were the dominant religion in competition with newly emerging religions as well as the growing moral authority being imposed by the federal state. And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
Stan Shannon wrote: I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts Wow, that is good to hear. Perhaps I simply have had a bit of misfortune and have run into wrong people / areas .. Stan Shannon wrote: And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. Maybe it depends on where you live. However, given that Christianity has become the most popular religion, I could only assume that there should be ample information on the subject as to which most ppl wouldn't be too misleaded. Wicca on the other hand .. most think that it is has to do with devil worshiping when its anything but -- Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
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I don't quite understand what you mean by theories, but I'll take a shot at answering. If the subject you are discussing is analytical (math, science, computer programming), then it is best to use facts. If the subject is more intuitive (psychology, books/stories, music) then talk in theories. Of course, it also depends on the personality of the person you are speaking with. "I am the one in ten, a number on a list I am the one in ten, even though I don't exist Nobody knows me, but I'm always there A statistical reminder of a world that doesn't care" - UB40
In this case I'm talking about the "more intuitive (psychology, books/stories, music)" types of subjects and it is the fact-type personality person that I'm talking with. Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
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Yeah, I always hate it when someone screws up a perfectly good argument with facts. Vague theoritical generalities make for much more interesting and powerful debate. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
I hear your sarcasm loud and clear, and I know that facts obviously are the power of most debates .. this is why I attempt to pick debates that I know enough facts about as to where I can argue effectively -- however, I sometimes through myself into some that I'm not ready for (like I experienced with the person today)... Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
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In this case I'm talking about the "more intuitive (psychology, books/stories, music)" types of subjects and it is the fact-type personality person that I'm talking with. Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
Well, then you should use facts or more direct (rather than vague) theoretical arguments. Analytical people won't understand (or believe) unless they can understand the point of your argument. "I am the one in ten, a number on a list I am the one in ten, even though I don't exist Nobody knows me, but I'm always there A statistical reminder of a world that doesn't care" - UB40
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I hear your sarcasm loud and clear, and I know that facts obviously are the power of most debates .. this is why I attempt to pick debates that I know enough facts about as to where I can argue effectively -- however, I sometimes through myself into some that I'm not ready for (like I experienced with the person today)... Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
I couldn't resist. ;P Actually, as someone who loves to argue, I've always found that the best way to win an argument is not to concentrate on facts or to try to establish some sort of theoritical framework. You just have to realize that *any* argument almost invariably contains some logical inconsistancy of some kind. If you can get your opponent off balance by being the first to take advantage of logical inconsistencies in their reasoning you have a good chance of winning. Of course, with something such as religion that is difficult, because, first, you have to have more knowledge of their religion in general than do they, and, second, their arguments are not always easily assailed by logic, as faith, not logic as such, is the intellectual foundation of their reasoning. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
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First off, thanks for your input, Banquo_ws wrote: If something(simple) = true && you.understand = false then you.bullshityourselve(something) = true I'm not saying that I'm having factual trouble with all the little simple things, but rather when it comes to issues such as Government operations and the oranizations that don't exist but do at the same time .. it's hard to give facts on those since the facts may be scarce. One of the topics was about religion (of which I am open-minded to other people about), but how Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is. For the average American, life is easier if your a Christian and not something else which may be not as socially exceptable like Wicca for instance (reasons being that religions like this have too many tainted and misleading fact that have been attached to them). Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
Hi Travis, Glad to hear your better than I thought! :) Well, about the conspiracy things... Lay off the X-Files. I have a long time ago..And here's why. Given that we'll never either prove or disprove those things, given that there is so many simpler things out there that are fun and more down to earth, given that 'paradise is closer to the children and ignorants' -Jesus and thusly, after the wise man words, I felt that indeed, what'S it to me? Will I be happier if I see a ufo/etc/... No. I won't. When people talk to me about those kind of unprovable things, I say 'uh-huh' and go away quietly. They're just not fun... Get Real, I tend to want to say. ;) Antoine ;) Coming home from Vancouver. I look like a hobo! ;p lol
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Stan Shannon wrote: I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts Wow, that is good to hear. Perhaps I simply have had a bit of misfortune and have run into wrong people / areas .. Stan Shannon wrote: And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. Maybe it depends on where you live. However, given that Christianity has become the most popular religion, I could only assume that there should be ample information on the subject as to which most ppl wouldn't be too misleaded. Wicca on the other hand .. most think that it is has to do with devil worshiping when its anything but -- Travis D. Mathison --- --- After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless ...
I think half the problem is we remember the jerks and fail to realize they are 1 in 100,000. Then you get people who are more about wanting to live in a world free of religion and are overly sensitive to everything. Also, you have the strangest beast out there who are the ones that support any religion but Christianity for reasons as logical as 'just because'. I am a HUGE supporter of freedom for all religions. Hell, I am even a supporter of a community having the limited ability to express themselves through their government. If that includes religion, that is fine by me as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. My biggest concern with a lot of the anti-religion stuff going on is that it might be singling out Christianity. This could be because the Christians are the only ones bending the rules or it could be because groups like the ALCU are turning a blind eye toward other religions. Personally, I think it is human nature to express ourselves. I have a feeling rule bending by non-Christian groups tends to get ignored. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Travis D. Mathison wrote: Christianity is in a way pushed on people in a way that no other religion is Really? I've never found that to be the case. I grew up as something of a heretic/Athiest type in the middle of the buckle of the bible belt (Oklahoma). I have always been struck by how much more open minded and tolerant Christians are of my thoughts of such topics as evolution, for example, compared to how closed minded and intolerant more 'liberal' non-religious types are of my ideas on, for example, issues such as the 2nd amendment. Sure, as Christianity is the dominant traditional moral autority of our culture, one would expect to more frequently encounter those who would 'push' their points of view. But I suspect it would be the same if Wicca were the dominant religion in competition with newly emerging religions as well as the growing moral authority being imposed by the federal state. And I doubt that Wicca has any more 'tainted or misleading' facts then Christianity does. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. But most of which is at least 50 years in the past so lest move on right? Christianity is still being pushed on us, in very subtle ways. I live in Canada. Here the majority of our stat. holidays are Christian. How many are of another religion? I have been stunned,when watching many a children's show turn Christian. But faiths like Wicca, Buddhism, and Scientology in Canada are handled gingerly and in low voices. I really doubt that Christianity is the most practiced religion in Canada. Even if you count the people who attend church but don't know anything about their own faith. The majority of Christians I have met are either the type that try to convert you, or are the type that are Christians in name only(meaning they have never read the bible and don't know much about their 'faith'). I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
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Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. But most of which is at least 50 years in the past so lest move on right? Christianity is still being pushed on us, in very subtle ways. I live in Canada. Here the majority of our stat. holidays are Christian. How many are of another religion? I have been stunned,when watching many a children's show turn Christian. But faiths like Wicca, Buddhism, and Scientology in Canada are handled gingerly and in low voices. I really doubt that Christianity is the most practiced religion in Canada. Even if you count the people who attend church but don't know anything about their own faith. The majority of Christians I have met are either the type that try to convert you, or are the type that are Christians in name only(meaning they have never read the bible and don't know much about their 'faith'). I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
qomi wrote: Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I mean, you could say that the WTC was destroyed 'in the name of Islam' but we were immidiately assured that this was not the case. So, in the same sense, if you discount the occassional lunatic misusing the religion - what crimes? Frankly, as I survey the "great" religions of the world, Christianity comes off relatiely crime free compared to others. qomi wrote: I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs Well, all I can do is speak from experience. Twenty years ago I had many friends. Some were Chrisitan some were of a more athiestic "liberal" liberal mind set. The Christian friends knew that I believed that the bible was not the literal word of God, that I "believed in evolution" and many other non-Christian principles and philosophies. Dispite all this they are still accepting of me and I am still counted among their friends. I consider that to be tolerant. However, my other friends, when they discovered that I regularly voted republican, that I did not support such political principls as abortion, "gay rights" or "civil rights" (for constitutional reason, not religious ones) they turned their backs on me and have never been my friends since that time. I consider that to be intolerant. Most christians I know understand their religion very well, especially the tenet of forgiveness. I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
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Yeah, I always hate it when someone screws up a perfectly good argument with facts. Vague theoritical generalities make for much more interesting and powerful debate. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
I see there is someone else out there who enjoys debates for the thrill value. It's like boxing, but without the broken jaws (well, unless you pick the wrong guy to argue with...) ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "DON'T MOVE! It can't see you if you don't move" - Sam Neil talking to me as John Simmons walked into the office.
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qomi wrote: Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I mean, you could say that the WTC was destroyed 'in the name of Islam' but we were immidiately assured that this was not the case. So, in the same sense, if you discount the occassional lunatic misusing the religion - what crimes? Frankly, as I survey the "great" religions of the world, Christianity comes off relatiely crime free compared to others. qomi wrote: I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs Well, all I can do is speak from experience. Twenty years ago I had many friends. Some were Chrisitan some were of a more athiestic "liberal" liberal mind set. The Christian friends knew that I believed that the bible was not the literal word of God, that I "believed in evolution" and many other non-Christian principles and philosophies. Dispite all this they are still accepting of me and I am still counted among their friends. I consider that to be tolerant. However, my other friends, when they discovered that I regularly voted republican, that I did not support such political principls as abortion, "gay rights" or "civil rights" (for constitutional reason, not religious ones) they turned their backs on me and have never been my friends since that time. I consider that to be intolerant. Most christians I know understand their religion very well, especially the tenet of forgiveness. I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
Stan Shannon wrote: Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I believe that was what she meant. Stan Shannon wrote: I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. I think it does depend very much on where you live. In the UK, modern society is generally moving away from religion of any sort, and yet more and more people are today classifying themselves as religious. I was watching a talk-show * the other day that was discussing the need for people to label themselves for others to see them. This particular show was about the homosexual .. bisexual .. hetrosexual label. Nearly everyone will say they are entirely hetrosexual if you ask them (unless they are extremely comfortable with being homo or bi, which unfortunately is not commonplace) - but this does not mean they are. It's a mixture of having to provide a label for yourself, and choosing one that you beleive will be taken positively by your peers. This isn't limited to religion and sexuality either, it covers pretty much everything. It is a never ending cycle, that only serves to obfuscate the true figures. Once our societies get over the need to label everyone (which, unfortunately I don't think can ever happen), then it will be better for all. The census should have a "me" checkbox under "which of the following best describes you?"... (* This was a one off, and I will do my best to ensure it never happens again.) ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "DON'T MOVE! It can't see you if you don't move" - Sam Neil talking to me as John Simmons walked into the office.
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qomi wrote: Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I mean, you could say that the WTC was destroyed 'in the name of Islam' but we were immidiately assured that this was not the case. So, in the same sense, if you discount the occassional lunatic misusing the religion - what crimes? Frankly, as I survey the "great" religions of the world, Christianity comes off relatiely crime free compared to others. qomi wrote: I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs Well, all I can do is speak from experience. Twenty years ago I had many friends. Some were Chrisitan some were of a more athiestic "liberal" liberal mind set. The Christian friends knew that I believed that the bible was not the literal word of God, that I "believed in evolution" and many other non-Christian principles and philosophies. Dispite all this they are still accepting of me and I am still counted among their friends. I consider that to be tolerant. However, my other friends, when they discovered that I regularly voted republican, that I did not support such political principls as abortion, "gay rights" or "civil rights" (for constitutional reason, not religious ones) they turned their backs on me and have never been my friends since that time. I consider that to be intolerant. Most christians I know understand their religion very well, especially the tenet of forgiveness. I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
Stan Shannon wrote: "I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality." How would that be? The only television shows I have seen in which the characters are Christians, the Christians were displayed in a very positive light. Stan Shannon wrote: "Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. Name one. " Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
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Stan Shannon wrote: Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I believe that was what she meant. Stan Shannon wrote: I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. I think it does depend very much on where you live. In the UK, modern society is generally moving away from religion of any sort, and yet more and more people are today classifying themselves as religious. I was watching a talk-show * the other day that was discussing the need for people to label themselves for others to see them. This particular show was about the homosexual .. bisexual .. hetrosexual label. Nearly everyone will say they are entirely hetrosexual if you ask them (unless they are extremely comfortable with being homo or bi, which unfortunately is not commonplace) - but this does not mean they are. It's a mixture of having to provide a label for yourself, and choosing one that you beleive will be taken positively by your peers. This isn't limited to religion and sexuality either, it covers pretty much everything. It is a never ending cycle, that only serves to obfuscate the true figures. Once our societies get over the need to label everyone (which, unfortunately I don't think can ever happen), then it will be better for all. The census should have a "me" checkbox under "which of the following best describes you?"... (* This was a one off, and I will do my best to ensure it never happens again.) ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "DON'T MOVE! It can't see you if you don't move" - Sam Neil talking to me as John Simmons walked into the office.
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Stan Shannon wrote: "I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality." How would that be? The only television shows I have seen in which the characters are Christians, the Christians were displayed in a very positive light. Stan Shannon wrote: "Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. Name one. " Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
qomi wrote: Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? Hmmm, I don't know what you mean by 'first nations', but that sounds very odd. Did the church do the abducting or the state? Unless there is no separation of church and state in Canada, I hardly see how you can call that a crime "in the name of christianity". I'm no expert on the bible, but I don't recall any passage that says - 'go ye forth and abduct ye the pagan's children and raise them as thy own in my name.' This is just another example of Chrisitanity getting the blame for the state's own criminal behavior. qomi wrote: When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. We have obviously had dissimilar experiences in this regard. I am no Chrisitian, but IMHO, Christianity has done far more good than harm. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
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Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. But most of which is at least 50 years in the past so lest move on right? Christianity is still being pushed on us, in very subtle ways. I live in Canada. Here the majority of our stat. holidays are Christian. How many are of another religion? I have been stunned,when watching many a children's show turn Christian. But faiths like Wicca, Buddhism, and Scientology in Canada are handled gingerly and in low voices. I really doubt that Christianity is the most practiced religion in Canada. Even if you count the people who attend church but don't know anything about their own faith. The majority of Christians I have met are either the type that try to convert you, or are the type that are Christians in name only(meaning they have never read the bible and don't know much about their 'faith'). I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
Atheism! Most people I know of GenX era defintely have no belief. Like me, how can you believe in something that quite possibly doesn't/couldn't exist...? ;) "An expert is someone who has made all the mistakes in his or her field" - Niels Bohr
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Stan Shannon wrote: "I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality." How would that be? The only television shows I have seen in which the characters are Christians, the Christians were displayed in a very positive light. Stan Shannon wrote: "Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. Name one. " Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
qomi wrote: Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? Ha..now you go girl!!! Point well made. I seen many a Ricky Lake/Jerry Springer show w/ white supremisist(spelling) claiming to only be following Christian belief. I know these peeps are no better then the terrorists of 911 for highjacking a religion, but still. ;P qomi wrote: Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians Exactly. I pumped gas at a full serve Mohawk which ironically is right beside a church(catholic/christian all the same to me) The priest of all people threatened to have me fired if i didn't clean his friggen windows. Where's the tolerance??? "An expert is someone who has made all the mistakes in his or her field" - Niels Bohr
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qomi wrote: Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? Hmmm, I don't know what you mean by 'first nations', but that sounds very odd. Did the church do the abducting or the state? Unless there is no separation of church and state in Canada, I hardly see how you can call that a crime "in the name of christianity". I'm no expert on the bible, but I don't recall any passage that says - 'go ye forth and abduct ye the pagan's children and raise them as thy own in my name.' This is just another example of Chrisitanity getting the blame for the state's own criminal behavior. qomi wrote: When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. We have obviously had dissimilar experiences in this regard. I am no Chrisitian, but IMHO, Christianity has done far more good than harm. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
First Nations is the generally accepted term that covers all persons who are descendants of the nations which were living in Canada prior to 900AD. Yes the church did abduct these children. And yes the crown and the churches are separate entities. The government claims to not have known that this was happening. The fact that these actions are very un-Christian like, was my point. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin