Theory vs. facts
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Yeah, I always hate it when someone screws up a perfectly good argument with facts. Vague theoritical generalities make for much more interesting and powerful debate. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
I see there is someone else out there who enjoys debates for the thrill value. It's like boxing, but without the broken jaws (well, unless you pick the wrong guy to argue with...) ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "DON'T MOVE! It can't see you if you don't move" - Sam Neil talking to me as John Simmons walked into the office.
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qomi wrote: Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I mean, you could say that the WTC was destroyed 'in the name of Islam' but we were immidiately assured that this was not the case. So, in the same sense, if you discount the occassional lunatic misusing the religion - what crimes? Frankly, as I survey the "great" religions of the world, Christianity comes off relatiely crime free compared to others. qomi wrote: I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs Well, all I can do is speak from experience. Twenty years ago I had many friends. Some were Chrisitan some were of a more athiestic "liberal" liberal mind set. The Christian friends knew that I believed that the bible was not the literal word of God, that I "believed in evolution" and many other non-Christian principles and philosophies. Dispite all this they are still accepting of me and I am still counted among their friends. I consider that to be tolerant. However, my other friends, when they discovered that I regularly voted republican, that I did not support such political principls as abortion, "gay rights" or "civil rights" (for constitutional reason, not religious ones) they turned their backs on me and have never been my friends since that time. I consider that to be intolerant. Most christians I know understand their religion very well, especially the tenet of forgiveness. I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
Stan Shannon wrote: Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I believe that was what she meant. Stan Shannon wrote: I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. I think it does depend very much on where you live. In the UK, modern society is generally moving away from religion of any sort, and yet more and more people are today classifying themselves as religious. I was watching a talk-show * the other day that was discussing the need for people to label themselves for others to see them. This particular show was about the homosexual .. bisexual .. hetrosexual label. Nearly everyone will say they are entirely hetrosexual if you ask them (unless they are extremely comfortable with being homo or bi, which unfortunately is not commonplace) - but this does not mean they are. It's a mixture of having to provide a label for yourself, and choosing one that you beleive will be taken positively by your peers. This isn't limited to religion and sexuality either, it covers pretty much everything. It is a never ending cycle, that only serves to obfuscate the true figures. Once our societies get over the need to label everyone (which, unfortunately I don't think can ever happen), then it will be better for all. The census should have a "me" checkbox under "which of the following best describes you?"... (* This was a one off, and I will do my best to ensure it never happens again.) ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "DON'T MOVE! It can't see you if you don't move" - Sam Neil talking to me as John Simmons walked into the office.
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qomi wrote: Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I mean, you could say that the WTC was destroyed 'in the name of Islam' but we were immidiately assured that this was not the case. So, in the same sense, if you discount the occassional lunatic misusing the religion - what crimes? Frankly, as I survey the "great" religions of the world, Christianity comes off relatiely crime free compared to others. qomi wrote: I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs Well, all I can do is speak from experience. Twenty years ago I had many friends. Some were Chrisitan some were of a more athiestic "liberal" liberal mind set. The Christian friends knew that I believed that the bible was not the literal word of God, that I "believed in evolution" and many other non-Christian principles and philosophies. Dispite all this they are still accepting of me and I am still counted among their friends. I consider that to be tolerant. However, my other friends, when they discovered that I regularly voted republican, that I did not support such political principls as abortion, "gay rights" or "civil rights" (for constitutional reason, not religious ones) they turned their backs on me and have never been my friends since that time. I consider that to be intolerant. Most christians I know understand their religion very well, especially the tenet of forgiveness. I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
Stan Shannon wrote: "I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality." How would that be? The only television shows I have seen in which the characters are Christians, the Christians were displayed in a very positive light. Stan Shannon wrote: "Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. Name one. " Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
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Stan Shannon wrote: Name one. I can think of many crimes which were done using Christianity as a front for people seeking political or economic advantage over others. But none that were done in "the name of christianity". I believe that was what she meant. Stan Shannon wrote: I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality. I think it does depend very much on where you live. In the UK, modern society is generally moving away from religion of any sort, and yet more and more people are today classifying themselves as religious. I was watching a talk-show * the other day that was discussing the need for people to label themselves for others to see them. This particular show was about the homosexual .. bisexual .. hetrosexual label. Nearly everyone will say they are entirely hetrosexual if you ask them (unless they are extremely comfortable with being homo or bi, which unfortunately is not commonplace) - but this does not mean they are. It's a mixture of having to provide a label for yourself, and choosing one that you beleive will be taken positively by your peers. This isn't limited to religion and sexuality either, it covers pretty much everything. It is a never ending cycle, that only serves to obfuscate the true figures. Once our societies get over the need to label everyone (which, unfortunately I don't think can ever happen), then it will be better for all. The census should have a "me" checkbox under "which of the following best describes you?"... (* This was a one off, and I will do my best to ensure it never happens again.) ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "DON'T MOVE! It can't see you if you don't move" - Sam Neil talking to me as John Simmons walked into the office.
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Stan Shannon wrote: "I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality." How would that be? The only television shows I have seen in which the characters are Christians, the Christians were displayed in a very positive light. Stan Shannon wrote: "Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. Name one. " Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
qomi wrote: Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? Hmmm, I don't know what you mean by 'first nations', but that sounds very odd. Did the church do the abducting or the state? Unless there is no separation of church and state in Canada, I hardly see how you can call that a crime "in the name of christianity". I'm no expert on the bible, but I don't recall any passage that says - 'go ye forth and abduct ye the pagan's children and raise them as thy own in my name.' This is just another example of Chrisitanity getting the blame for the state's own criminal behavior. qomi wrote: When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. We have obviously had dissimilar experiences in this regard. I am no Chrisitian, but IMHO, Christianity has done far more good than harm. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
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Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. But most of which is at least 50 years in the past so lest move on right? Christianity is still being pushed on us, in very subtle ways. I live in Canada. Here the majority of our stat. holidays are Christian. How many are of another religion? I have been stunned,when watching many a children's show turn Christian. But faiths like Wicca, Buddhism, and Scientology in Canada are handled gingerly and in low voices. I really doubt that Christianity is the most practiced religion in Canada. Even if you count the people who attend church but don't know anything about their own faith. The majority of Christians I have met are either the type that try to convert you, or are the type that are Christians in name only(meaning they have never read the bible and don't know much about their 'faith'). I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
Atheism! Most people I know of GenX era defintely have no belief. Like me, how can you believe in something that quite possibly doesn't/couldn't exist...? ;) "An expert is someone who has made all the mistakes in his or her field" - Niels Bohr
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Stan Shannon wrote: "I think you are probably allowing your perspective on things to be shaped by Hollywood and the general media driven culture, and not by reality." How would that be? The only television shows I have seen in which the characters are Christians, the Christians were displayed in a very positive light. Stan Shannon wrote: "Countless crimes have been done in the name of Christianity. Name one. " Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin
qomi wrote: Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? Ha..now you go girl!!! Point well made. I seen many a Ricky Lake/Jerry Springer show w/ white supremisist(spelling) claiming to only be following Christian belief. I know these peeps are no better then the terrorists of 911 for highjacking a religion, but still. ;P qomi wrote: Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians Exactly. I pumped gas at a full serve Mohawk which ironically is right beside a church(catholic/christian all the same to me) The priest of all people threatened to have me fired if i didn't clean his friggen windows. Where's the tolerance??? "An expert is someone who has made all the mistakes in his or her field" - Niels Bohr
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qomi wrote: Just one? How about First Nations children being abducted from their parents because they were 'heathens'? They were then put into 'Christian' schools, where they were beaten if they spoke their own language or practiced their beliefs? Hmmm, I don't know what you mean by 'first nations', but that sounds very odd. Did the church do the abducting or the state? Unless there is no separation of church and state in Canada, I hardly see how you can call that a crime "in the name of christianity". I'm no expert on the bible, but I don't recall any passage that says - 'go ye forth and abduct ye the pagan's children and raise them as thy own in my name.' This is just another example of Chrisitanity getting the blame for the state's own criminal behavior. qomi wrote: When I said "I have met very few Christians who are tolerant of other's beliefs" I was speaking from my experience. Which I thought would be understood when i said "I have met...". Don’t get me wrong I think that the base of the Christian ideology is wonderful (tolerance, acceptance, charitable). However, I rarely see these virtues expressed by so-called Christians. Please note I did not say “I have never seen” I said “I rarely see”. We have obviously had dissimilar experiences in this regard. I am no Chrisitian, but IMHO, Christianity has done far more good than harm. "Thank you, thank you very much" Elvis.
First Nations is the generally accepted term that covers all persons who are descendants of the nations which were living in Canada prior to 900AD. Yes the church did abduct these children. And yes the crown and the churches are separate entities. The government claims to not have known that this was happening. The fact that these actions are very un-Christian like, was my point. qomi "Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got." - Janis Joplin