Office 12 Controls
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So has anyone here been brave enought to tackle creating an Office 12 Ribbon control yet? And if so, are you going to write a CP article on it? I've seen 1 from DevComponents[^] but no others so far but it isn't free ofcourse. Richard
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So has anyone here been brave enought to tackle creating an Office 12 Ribbon control yet? And if so, are you going to write a CP article on it? I've seen 1 from DevComponents[^] but no others so far but it isn't free ofcourse. Richard
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So has anyone here been brave enought to tackle creating an Office 12 Ribbon control yet? And if so, are you going to write a CP article on it? I've seen 1 from DevComponents[^] but no others so far but it isn't free ofcourse. Richard
I think it might be wise to see how they actually pan out first. I personally don't like them at all, and I shudder to have to think of the hassle of explaining this stuff to people who have finally gotten comfortable using regular menus. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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I think it might be wise to see how they actually pan out first. I personally don't like them at all, and I shudder to have to think of the hassle of explaining this stuff to people who have finally gotten comfortable using regular menus. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Jim Crafton wrote:
I think it might be wise to see how they actually pan out first.
That, unfortunately does not matter. If a Microsoft product uses it (specially a popular one like Office) end-users expect every app to sport that look, however gross it might be :sigh: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
Jim Crafton wrote:
I think it might be wise to see how they actually pan out first.
That, unfortunately does not matter. If a Microsoft product uses it (specially a popular one like Office) end-users expect every app to sport that look, however gross it might be :sigh: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!OK I've heard alot of people (developers) claim this. In my experience I have *never*, *ever* heard a single non-developer say, "Oooh, why doesn't this look like Office"! In fact, I have asked people, and many people cannot even identify what it is that *looks* different in Office, say between Office 2000 and Office XP (note I said "looks" not functionality). So, how does rushing out to blindly copy the latest UI wet dream from Redmond help your application? How does spending, potentially, *alot* of time revamping your UI for this help your app, when that time could be spent adding *new* features specific to your application? Another question: who are the people whom the folks at Redmond claim that asked for this kind of UI (the ribbon UI) in the first place? Who are the customers who specifically said "You know what, the menu bar is just too hard to use"? And if there are no real customers clamoring for this, then that means: A) the Redmond folks are lying (not neccessarily surprising) B) that a *alot* of Microsoft developer time was wasted on this that could been spent doing other things like bug fixing, stability, or genuinely useful features. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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OK I've heard alot of people (developers) claim this. In my experience I have *never*, *ever* heard a single non-developer say, "Oooh, why doesn't this look like Office"! In fact, I have asked people, and many people cannot even identify what it is that *looks* different in Office, say between Office 2000 and Office XP (note I said "looks" not functionality). So, how does rushing out to blindly copy the latest UI wet dream from Redmond help your application? How does spending, potentially, *alot* of time revamping your UI for this help your app, when that time could be spent adding *new* features specific to your application? Another question: who are the people whom the folks at Redmond claim that asked for this kind of UI (the ribbon UI) in the first place? Who are the customers who specifically said "You know what, the menu bar is just too hard to use"? And if there are no real customers clamoring for this, then that means: A) the Redmond folks are lying (not neccessarily surprising) B) that a *alot* of Microsoft developer time was wasted on this that could been spent doing other things like bug fixing, stability, or genuinely useful features. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Jim Crafton wrote:
Who are the customers who specifically said "You know what, the menu bar is just too hard to use"?
I've heard this many times from end users; "there are too many options in the menus! I can't find a damn thing!" I've heard some Open Office zealots claim their menus are easier to use and navigate than MS's complex menu system. On top of that, let's not forget Microsoft has done more UI usability studies than all of us combined. After playing with Vista, I have to say some of it has payed off (example[^], example[^]). The whole thing feels easier to use. I don't know how well the whole ribbon thing will work out; I haven't tried it yet so anything said on it would be speculation. But judging by their UI improvements for Vista, IE7 (which, I actually like now, despite being a big FF guy), and Windows Messenger, my bet is the Office UI changes will worthy improvements. We'll see. I do see where you're coming from though with everyone playing follow-the-leader whenever MS has some new UI candy. Honestly though, users like new cool eye candy. :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: How 'bout a little guitar now? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Jim Crafton wrote:
I think it might be wise to see how they actually pan out first.
That, unfortunately does not matter. If a Microsoft product uses it (specially a popular one like Office) end-users expect every app to sport that look, however gross it might be :sigh: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a Microsoft product uses it (specially a popular one like Office) end-users expect every app to sport that look, however gross it might be
I'm with Jim on that one. I've never heard a end user say this. Most end users want something that's not overly complicated and just works IMO. Jeremy Falcon
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OK I've heard alot of people (developers) claim this. In my experience I have *never*, *ever* heard a single non-developer say, "Oooh, why doesn't this look like Office"! In fact, I have asked people, and many people cannot even identify what it is that *looks* different in Office, say between Office 2000 and Office XP (note I said "looks" not functionality). So, how does rushing out to blindly copy the latest UI wet dream from Redmond help your application? How does spending, potentially, *alot* of time revamping your UI for this help your app, when that time could be spent adding *new* features specific to your application? Another question: who are the people whom the folks at Redmond claim that asked for this kind of UI (the ribbon UI) in the first place? Who are the customers who specifically said "You know what, the menu bar is just too hard to use"? And if there are no real customers clamoring for this, then that means: A) the Redmond folks are lying (not neccessarily surprising) B) that a *alot* of Microsoft developer time was wasted on this that could been spent doing other things like bug fixing, stability, or genuinely useful features. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
The basic reason why the ribbon was invented is that the Office apps were growing way too big in features, and that you could find them in different places: menus, toolbars, task panes.... If you wanted something, you didn't know where to look. I have not used it personally, but from reading Jensen Harris's Blog[^]I've come to like it. David Stone (I think) here said he used Beta 1 and that it is awesome. I guess you could start with this post: Beta 1-derful: The 'Top 30' List[^] [EDIT: Start with the Why th UI series. It's being rerun this week, with updated content.]
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix Chihuahua, Mexico
Not much here: My CP Blog! -- modified at 13:12 Thursday 30th March, 2006
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Who are the customers who specifically said "You know what, the menu bar is just too hard to use"?
I've heard this many times from end users; "there are too many options in the menus! I can't find a damn thing!" I've heard some Open Office zealots claim their menus are easier to use and navigate than MS's complex menu system. On top of that, let's not forget Microsoft has done more UI usability studies than all of us combined. After playing with Vista, I have to say some of it has payed off (example[^], example[^]). The whole thing feels easier to use. I don't know how well the whole ribbon thing will work out; I haven't tried it yet so anything said on it would be speculation. But judging by their UI improvements for Vista, IE7 (which, I actually like now, despite being a big FF guy), and Windows Messenger, my bet is the Office UI changes will worthy improvements. We'll see. I do see where you're coming from though with everyone playing follow-the-leader whenever MS has some new UI candy. Honestly though, users like new cool eye candy. :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: How 'bout a little guitar now? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I do see where you're coming from though with everyone playing follow-the-leader whenever MS has some new UI candy. Honestly though, users like new cool eye candy.
Not really. For instance, in the medical field end users don't want eye candy they want software that works. It's the same for a lot of apps that are meant for more than Tetris. [edit] I'm not saying eye candy is bad, but it's not top priority for a lot of people. [/edit] Jeremy Falcon
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Judah Himango wrote:
I do see where you're coming from though with everyone playing follow-the-leader whenever MS has some new UI candy. Honestly though, users like new cool eye candy.
Not really. For instance, in the medical field end users don't want eye candy they want software that works. It's the same for a lot of apps that are meant for more than Tetris. [edit] I'm not saying eye candy is bad, but it's not top priority for a lot of people. [/edit] Jeremy Falcon
Obviously it is dependent on your user base. For example, I write some internal software for the company I work for, and after a few weeks of feature additions and bug fixes, the first response I got back from the users is how cool the new icons look. :rolleyes: It's a first impression thing. Even for more sophisticated, professional users, a polished UI is nothing to scoff at.
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OK I've heard alot of people (developers) claim this. In my experience I have *never*, *ever* heard a single non-developer say, "Oooh, why doesn't this look like Office"! In fact, I have asked people, and many people cannot even identify what it is that *looks* different in Office, say between Office 2000 and Office XP (note I said "looks" not functionality). So, how does rushing out to blindly copy the latest UI wet dream from Redmond help your application? How does spending, potentially, *alot* of time revamping your UI for this help your app, when that time could be spent adding *new* features specific to your application? Another question: who are the people whom the folks at Redmond claim that asked for this kind of UI (the ribbon UI) in the first place? Who are the customers who specifically said "You know what, the menu bar is just too hard to use"? And if there are no real customers clamoring for this, then that means: A) the Redmond folks are lying (not neccessarily surprising) B) that a *alot* of Microsoft developer time was wasted on this that could been spent doing other things like bug fixing, stability, or genuinely useful features. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
I agree about the look vs. functionality comparison. If you take Office 2000 and XP, both of them you go to the File menu and choose Save to save a file. However, with Office 12, there is no menu bar per se. The ribbon bar will change depending on what the user is doing. This is by far a big departure from the watch the software has worked the past 10 years, so users are definitely going to notice that. Regards, Brigg Thorp Senior Software Engineer Timex Corporation
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Obviously it is dependent on your user base. For example, I write some internal software for the company I work for, and after a few weeks of feature additions and bug fixes, the first response I got back from the users is how cool the new icons look. :rolleyes: It's a first impression thing. Even for more sophisticated, professional users, a polished UI is nothing to scoff at.
Judah Himango wrote:
It's a first impression thing. Even for more sophisticated, professional users, a polished UI is nothing to scoff at.
I agree, but something like a Office Ribbon is a new way of thinking rather than looks nice. I agree it probably all depends on the user base, but there's even the customers that don't want to relearn a system they already know because MS just made a new gizmo in Office. Jeremy Falcon
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Judah Himango wrote:
It's a first impression thing. Even for more sophisticated, professional users, a polished UI is nothing to scoff at.
I agree, but something like a Office Ribbon is a new way of thinking rather than looks nice. I agree it probably all depends on the user base, but there's even the customers that don't want to relearn a system they already know because MS just made a new gizmo in Office. Jeremy Falcon
Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see how well its received by the masses. :)
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Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see how well its received by the masses. :)
Yup, I'm kinda curious about it myself. Although I tend to let stuff become "popular" so to speak before I use it. Still, it looks interesting. Jeremy Falcon
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Who are the customers who specifically said "You know what, the menu bar is just too hard to use"?
I've heard this many times from end users; "there are too many options in the menus! I can't find a damn thing!" I've heard some Open Office zealots claim their menus are easier to use and navigate than MS's complex menu system. On top of that, let's not forget Microsoft has done more UI usability studies than all of us combined. After playing with Vista, I have to say some of it has payed off (example[^], example[^]). The whole thing feels easier to use. I don't know how well the whole ribbon thing will work out; I haven't tried it yet so anything said on it would be speculation. But judging by their UI improvements for Vista, IE7 (which, I actually like now, despite being a big FF guy), and Windows Messenger, my bet is the Office UI changes will worthy improvements. We'll see. I do see where you're coming from though with everyone playing follow-the-leader whenever MS has some new UI candy. Honestly though, users like new cool eye candy. :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: How 'bout a little guitar now? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I've heard this many times from end users; "there are too many options in the menus! I can't find a damn thing!"
Fine. That means the menu *content* is poorly deisgned, not that the menu *concept* is broken. And I'd agree, many applications get their menu content wrong, or at least could benefit from streamlining.
Judah Himango wrote:
I've heard some Open Office zealots claim their menus are easier to use and navigate than MS's complex menu system.
Whatever, OO folks just mindlessly barking up a tree. It's not like they really did anyhting other that parrot whatever Office does.
Judah Himango wrote:
On top of that, let's not forget Microsoft has done more UI usability studies than all of us combined. After playing with Vista, I have to say some of it has payed off (example[^], example[^]). The whole thing feels easier to use.
OK this is where I become suspicious. And I'm not just poking fingers at Microsoft either - I'd be perfectly happy to poke at Apple to. Where are these studies? Who did them? Why should I beleive they happened at all? The 1st screenshot that you linked to is an *exact* duplicate of the Human Interface Guidelines that Apple pushes dating back to 2000 (pre-OSX) and possibly going back to NeXTStep. So to come up with that dialog would have required *zero* user testing! I'll grant that the second one is slightly more evolved, so who knows about that.
Judah Himango wrote:
Honestly though, users like new cool eye candy.
Do they? Or do developer's just like to work on providing new eye-candy because that's more fun to do, since the results are instantly recognizeable. I think some things they might like, but having watched my parents go through the steps of learning a computer, I think users would benefit from developers focusing on the features of their app, and how to make it easy, consistent, and well thought out to use. I think *thats* what users would really like. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Obviously it is dependent on your user base. For example, I write some internal software for the company I work for, and after a few weeks of feature additions and bug fixes, the first response I got back from the users is how cool the new icons look. :rolleyes: It's a first impression thing. Even for more sophisticated, professional users, a polished UI is nothing to scoff at.
Judah Himango wrote:
Even for more sophisticated, professional users, a polished UI is nothing to scoff at.
A polished UI doens't necessarily mean eye-candy. It doesn't mean having 1200 different damn gradients, or a bazillions different color schemes all over the place, that, by the way, don't fit in with the rest of windowing system either. That's a product that's being driven by developers anxious to try out new whiz bang graphics code. A polished UI should make it easy for the user to accomplish their tasks, in the least amount of time, with the least hassle, and the least interference and distractions from the app (yes I'm talkin' bout you Clippy). It should *also* be aesthetically pleasing, but that's not the only deciding factor. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Judah Himango wrote:
I've heard this many times from end users; "there are too many options in the menus! I can't find a damn thing!"
Fine. That means the menu *content* is poorly deisgned, not that the menu *concept* is broken. And I'd agree, many applications get their menu content wrong, or at least could benefit from streamlining.
Judah Himango wrote:
I've heard some Open Office zealots claim their menus are easier to use and navigate than MS's complex menu system.
Whatever, OO folks just mindlessly barking up a tree. It's not like they really did anyhting other that parrot whatever Office does.
Judah Himango wrote:
On top of that, let's not forget Microsoft has done more UI usability studies than all of us combined. After playing with Vista, I have to say some of it has payed off (example[^], example[^]). The whole thing feels easier to use.
OK this is where I become suspicious. And I'm not just poking fingers at Microsoft either - I'd be perfectly happy to poke at Apple to. Where are these studies? Who did them? Why should I beleive they happened at all? The 1st screenshot that you linked to is an *exact* duplicate of the Human Interface Guidelines that Apple pushes dating back to 2000 (pre-OSX) and possibly going back to NeXTStep. So to come up with that dialog would have required *zero* user testing! I'll grant that the second one is slightly more evolved, so who knows about that.
Judah Himango wrote:
Honestly though, users like new cool eye candy.
Do they? Or do developer's just like to work on providing new eye-candy because that's more fun to do, since the results are instantly recognizeable. I think some things they might like, but having watched my parents go through the steps of learning a computer, I think users would benefit from developers focusing on the features of their app, and how to make it easy, consistent, and well thought out to use. I think *thats* what users would really like. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
You are my new hero! :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
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The basic reason why the ribbon was invented is that the Office apps were growing way too big in features, and that you could find them in different places: menus, toolbars, task panes.... If you wanted something, you didn't know where to look. I have not used it personally, but from reading Jensen Harris's Blog[^]I've come to like it. David Stone (I think) here said he used Beta 1 and that it is awesome. I guess you could start with this post: Beta 1-derful: The 'Top 30' List[^] [EDIT: Start with the Why th UI series. It's being rerun this week, with updated content.]
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix Chihuahua, Mexico
Not much here: My CP Blog! -- modified at 13:12 Thursday 30th March, 2006
Luis Alonso Ramos wrote:
he basic reason why the ribbon was invented is that the Office apps were growing way too big in features,
So why not reduce or restructure the feature set? Why not shift some of the features to another application or applet? Maybe it should have occured to them that if they had too many features, that the feature list weas the problem, not the menu bar! So instead of resolving the issue of "do we have the appropriate number of features for this app", we just skipped right ahead to "Hey lets just apply a totally different paint job!". To my mind that just seems like sloppy work. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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You are my new hero! :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
Should I blush? :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Luis Alonso Ramos wrote:
he basic reason why the ribbon was invented is that the Office apps were growing way too big in features,
So why not reduce or restructure the feature set? Why not shift some of the features to another application or applet? Maybe it should have occured to them that if they had too many features, that the feature list weas the problem, not the menu bar! So instead of resolving the issue of "do we have the appropriate number of features for this app", we just skipped right ahead to "Hey lets just apply a totally different paint job!". To my mind that just seems like sloppy work. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
But what features do you cut? Even if users use on average only 20% of Excel features, with 500 million users, not everyone's 20% is the same. I don't think cutting features with such a huge user base is possible. What they effectively have done is reorganize those features into major features, with specific (or contextual) options only appearing when they can be actually used (In Word you always have the Table menu, even if your document doesn't have tables.)
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix Chihuahua, Mexico
Not much here: My CP Blog!