Israel's female soldiers: the answers
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I've also found that a lot of gentiles equate Jews with Judaism, Israel being Jewish, Israel being Judaic. The real numbers, as I understand it, is that while Israel is Jews and Arabs, it is largely secular. I also understand there's a lot of Occultism in Israel, especially in Tel Aviv. But from what I understand, despite these things, the Orthodox Judaic Jews have a lot of power in Israel. Would you say that's accurate, Isaac?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
The real numbers, as I understand it, is that while Israel is Jews and Arabs, it is largely secular
Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003) - courtesy of the CIA World Factbook. When you say it is a secular society does that mean that all citizens have equal rights regardless of their religious persuasion? :rolleyes: As Isaac has stated Arabs do not get drafted into the military. :~ There seems to be a two [possibly more] tiered system at work here. :confused: Are all citizens insured equal rights in Israel? Can an Arab child aspire to serve as Prime Minister some day? :wtf: In Israel, as in some other places in the world [Iraq and Kashmir immediately come to mind – notably all hot spots] the divide is along religious lines. :sigh: Until there is equal citizenship, both rights and responsibilities, regardless of religious persuasion for all citizens in Israel it is a stretch to call it a secular state. :| PS – I find it interesting that the majority of Israeli Christians are Arabs. I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes
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Something you would think we programmers would remember quite well, given how we deal in models of the real world, and that those models are only approximations.
Software Zen:
delete this;Yes, but these models are firing live rounds! :wtf: That kind of puts a personal touch to it. :~ I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes
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Judah Himango wrote:
The real numbers, as I understand it, is that while Israel is Jews and Arabs, it is largely secular
Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003) - courtesy of the CIA World Factbook. When you say it is a secular society does that mean that all citizens have equal rights regardless of their religious persuasion? :rolleyes: As Isaac has stated Arabs do not get drafted into the military. :~ There seems to be a two [possibly more] tiered system at work here. :confused: Are all citizens insured equal rights in Israel? Can an Arab child aspire to serve as Prime Minister some day? :wtf: In Israel, as in some other places in the world [Iraq and Kashmir immediately come to mind – notably all hot spots] the divide is along religious lines. :sigh: Until there is equal citizenship, both rights and responsibilities, regardless of religious persuasion for all citizens in Israel it is a stretch to call it a secular state. :| PS – I find it interesting that the majority of Israeli Christians are Arabs. I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes
JimmyRopes wrote:
I find it interesting that the majority of Israeli Christians are Arabs.
Not to be culturally insensitive? {Did I really just type that? :Shutter:} Where else could they live in that region and practice their religion?
-- modified at 2:31 Monday 1st May, 2006
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Judah Himango wrote:
The real numbers, as I understand it, is that while Israel is Jews and Arabs, it is largely secular
Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003) - courtesy of the CIA World Factbook. When you say it is a secular society does that mean that all citizens have equal rights regardless of their religious persuasion? :rolleyes: As Isaac has stated Arabs do not get drafted into the military. :~ There seems to be a two [possibly more] tiered system at work here. :confused: Are all citizens insured equal rights in Israel? Can an Arab child aspire to serve as Prime Minister some day? :wtf: In Israel, as in some other places in the world [Iraq and Kashmir immediately come to mind – notably all hot spots] the divide is along religious lines. :sigh: Until there is equal citizenship, both rights and responsibilities, regardless of religious persuasion for all citizens in Israel it is a stretch to call it a secular state. :| PS – I find it interesting that the majority of Israeli Christians are Arabs. I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes
JimmyRopes wrote:
As Isaac has stated Arabs do not get drafted into the military
This is a necessaity. You see, when Israel formed 58 years ago some of the Arabs fled to other countries surrounding Israel, and some stayed here and became citizens. So if an Israeli Arab would serve in the military he might be faced with a big dilemma of fighting his "family". I should also state that one Israeli Arab asked to be a pilot in the Israeli Air Force, and if I recall correctly he was given the option eventually.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Can an Arab child aspire to serve as Prime Minister some day?
The Israeli Parlament is called the "Cneset" which has 120 members. Any Arab can be a member of every party and get elected. We currently have 3 Arab parties that got 10 sits elected in the last elections. Mind you, in some Arab parties you'll find both Jewish and Muslim politicians. Most Israeli Arabs vote for the big parties (left wing or right wing) and not the Arab parties. ------------------------------ I think it's very harsh comparing Israel to Iraq. Israel is a real democracy and everyone here has the same rights. The only difference is that Jews from all over the world can get an Israeli citizenship and other religions can't. You have to remember that Israel was formed as a Jewish refuge and home (after the holocaust). Only later did we face other religions in our country. Like every democracy we have flaws and discrimination, but that is not due to the law. I haven't seen any black presidents in the US yet as well... Isaac Sasson
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JimmyRopes wrote:
I find it interesting that the majority of Israeli Christians are Arabs.
Not to be culturally insensitive? {Did I really just type that? :Shutter:} Where else could they live in that region and practice their religion?
-- modified at 2:31 Monday 1st May, 2006
S Douglas wrote:
Where else could they live in that region and practice their religion?
Lebanon would be the first choice. It even borders Israel! Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3% note: seventeen religious sects recognized Syria would be the second choice. Also bordering Israel. Sunni Muslim 74%, Alawite, Druze, and other Muslim sects 16%, Christian (various sects) 10%, Jewish (tiny communities in Damascus, Al Qamishli, and Aleppo) Jordan would be the third choice. Very long land border with Israel. Sunni Muslim 92%, Christian 6% (majority Greek Orthodox, but some Greek and Roman Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Protestant denominations), other 2% (several small Shi'a Muslim and Druze populations) (2001 est.) All of these bordering countries have a proportionately larger Christian population than Israel. Maybe it has escaped you but Palestine is the birthplace of Christianity! :doh: I would have expected a larger representation there than in surrounding countries but, for whatever reason, that is not the case. All population figures courtesy of the CIA World Factbook. I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -- modified at 0:00 Tuesday 2nd May, 2006
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Judah Himango wrote:
The real numbers, as I understand it, is that while Israel is Jews and Arabs, it is largely secular
Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003) - courtesy of the CIA World Factbook. When you say it is a secular society does that mean that all citizens have equal rights regardless of their religious persuasion? :rolleyes: As Isaac has stated Arabs do not get drafted into the military. :~ There seems to be a two [possibly more] tiered system at work here. :confused: Are all citizens insured equal rights in Israel? Can an Arab child aspire to serve as Prime Minister some day? :wtf: In Israel, as in some other places in the world [Iraq and Kashmir immediately come to mind – notably all hot spots] the divide is along religious lines. :sigh: Until there is equal citizenship, both rights and responsibilities, regardless of religious persuasion for all citizens in Israel it is a stretch to call it a secular state. :| PS – I find it interesting that the majority of Israeli Christians are Arabs. I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes
JimmyRopes wrote:
As Isaac has stated Arabs do not get drafted into the military.
While I cannot imagine many Islamic Arabs vying for a military career in the Israeli Defense Forces, I hope you'll agree it's a really poor idea for the state of Israel! ;P
JimmyRopes wrote:
Can an Arab child aspire to serve as Prime Minister some day?
There are several Arabs in Knesset, as I recall, so yes.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Until there is equal citizenship, both rights and responsibilities, regardless of religious persuasion for all citizens in Israel it is a stretch to call it a secular state.
It is largely secular because the majority of the populace is secular, i.e. non-religious. Again, the terms "Jew" and "Jewish" imply descent, not necessarily religion. I will agree that Israel has a lot of discrimination in it, however. That said, it's not like it is in the west: unlike here, there is a large group of people calling for the ultimate destruction of the nation, wanting to resplace it with yet another Islamic theocracy. Do you give them equal rights? Do you let such a group fight in your military? Join your government? Influence your politics? Such a thing is national suicide; it's not a simple question of giving equal rights for the sake of improving human rights for all in Israel.
JimmyRopes wrote:
When you say it is a secular society does that mean that all citizens have equal rights regardless of their religious persuasion?
I hope I'm wrong, but I sense you have a political agenda in saying this! :rolleyes: Any fool knows the term 'secular' means non-religious, and has little to with humanity's utopia of everyone treating each other nicely. In fact, secularism's end result is depravity of God and love: one of Jesus' early followers, Paul, puts secular humanism in its proper place:
"Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating. Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives. They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid
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Isaac's post helps us remember that it is about people not labels, a good thing. The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote:
Isaac's post helps us remember that it is about people not labels, a good thing.
I absolutely agree.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
As Isaac has stated Arabs do not get drafted into the military
This is a necessaity. You see, when Israel formed 58 years ago some of the Arabs fled to other countries surrounding Israel, and some stayed here and became citizens. So if an Israeli Arab would serve in the military he might be faced with a big dilemma of fighting his "family". I should also state that one Israeli Arab asked to be a pilot in the Israeli Air Force, and if I recall correctly he was given the option eventually.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Can an Arab child aspire to serve as Prime Minister some day?
The Israeli Parlament is called the "Cneset" which has 120 members. Any Arab can be a member of every party and get elected. We currently have 3 Arab parties that got 10 sits elected in the last elections. Mind you, in some Arab parties you'll find both Jewish and Muslim politicians. Most Israeli Arabs vote for the big parties (left wing or right wing) and not the Arab parties. ------------------------------ I think it's very harsh comparing Israel to Iraq. Israel is a real democracy and everyone here has the same rights. The only difference is that Jews from all over the world can get an Israeli citizenship and other religions can't. You have to remember that Israel was formed as a Jewish refuge and home (after the holocaust). Only later did we face other religions in our country. Like every democracy we have flaws and discrimination, but that is not due to the law. I haven't seen any black presidents in the US yet as well... Isaac Sasson
Isaac Sasson wrote:
This is a necessaity. You see, when Israel formed 58 years ago some of the Arabs fled to other countries surrounding Israel, and some stayed here and became citizens. So if an Israeli Arab would serve in the military he might be faced with a big dilemma of fighting his "family".
Wouldn't a deferment be in order here? If an Arab was not willing, for reasons of conscience, not want to take part in Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory, they should be given alternative service. Something that will benefit the state but not challenge their moral obligations. People who are not allowed to participate will forever remain estranged.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
I should also state that one Israeli Arab asked to be a pilot in the Israeli Air Force, and if I recall correctly he was given the option eventually.
A token gesture if all Arabs are not treated as first class citizens.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
The Israeli Parlament is called the "Cneset" which has 120 members. Any Arab can be a member of every party and get elected.
There is hope yet! Although the reality on the ground is less promising.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
in some Arab parties you'll find both Jewish and Muslim politicians
As it should be.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
Most Israeli Arabs vote for the big parties (left wing or right wing) and not the Arab parties
Their choice.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
I think it's very harsh comparing Israel to Iraq. Israel is a real democracy and everyone here has the same rights
My point was that Israel and Iraq are both divided along religious fault lines not what type of government each has. A point you have obviously missed. In case it has escaped you Iraq held UN certified democratic elections last January. To say that Israel is any more a democracy than Iraq is arrogant and demeaning in light of recent historical developments.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
The only difference is that Jews from all over the world can get an Israeli citizenship and other religions can't
Not a definition of a secular state. Until this biased procedure is abolished Israel will never be a secular
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Isaac Sasson wrote:
This is a necessaity. You see, when Israel formed 58 years ago some of the Arabs fled to other countries surrounding Israel, and some stayed here and became citizens. So if an Israeli Arab would serve in the military he might be faced with a big dilemma of fighting his "family".
Wouldn't a deferment be in order here? If an Arab was not willing, for reasons of conscience, not want to take part in Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory, they should be given alternative service. Something that will benefit the state but not challenge their moral obligations. People who are not allowed to participate will forever remain estranged.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
I should also state that one Israeli Arab asked to be a pilot in the Israeli Air Force, and if I recall correctly he was given the option eventually.
A token gesture if all Arabs are not treated as first class citizens.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
The Israeli Parlament is called the "Cneset" which has 120 members. Any Arab can be a member of every party and get elected.
There is hope yet! Although the reality on the ground is less promising.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
in some Arab parties you'll find both Jewish and Muslim politicians
As it should be.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
Most Israeli Arabs vote for the big parties (left wing or right wing) and not the Arab parties
Their choice.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
I think it's very harsh comparing Israel to Iraq. Israel is a real democracy and everyone here has the same rights
My point was that Israel and Iraq are both divided along religious fault lines not what type of government each has. A point you have obviously missed. In case it has escaped you Iraq held UN certified democratic elections last January. To say that Israel is any more a democracy than Iraq is arrogant and demeaning in light of recent historical developments.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
The only difference is that Jews from all over the world can get an Israeli citizenship and other religions can't
Not a definition of a secular state. Until this biased procedure is abolished Israel will never be a secular
I won't address each and every point you made because I do not want to start an argument in the Lounge. More over, I agree with most of what you've written and have been for years. In the last 2 elections I voted for a party that promotes equality in Israel for every minority (Arabs, gays/lesbiens, women etc.) I stated how things are today and how they came to be. That doesn't mean there isn't any room for change. Changing the law in Israel is very difficult because of strong orthodox influence (which I am personally against - it discriminates agnostic Jews and Arabs both). [EDIT] In regard to WW2, of course Jews aren't the only victims. But you forget that in the end of the war the russians/communists had a refuge while the Jews had no place to go (no country wanted to take them). I'm not looking for compensation - just a homeland. [/EDIT] I gave the example of the black president to show that even though the law permits one running for president there's still a long way until this will actually happen. It takes years to change laws, and generations to change people. I'd be happy to discuss this further elsewhere: ICQ: 44992613 MSN: i_sasson@homtail.com email: saisaac@gmail.com Isaac Sasson "I hate it. Java sucks. And Java's generics suck harder. And in general, Java just sucks." - David Stone, The Lounge (May 1st 2006)
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I won't address each and every point you made because I do not want to start an argument in the Lounge. More over, I agree with most of what you've written and have been for years. In the last 2 elections I voted for a party that promotes equality in Israel for every minority (Arabs, gays/lesbiens, women etc.) I stated how things are today and how they came to be. That doesn't mean there isn't any room for change. Changing the law in Israel is very difficult because of strong orthodox influence (which I am personally against - it discriminates agnostic Jews and Arabs both). [EDIT] In regard to WW2, of course Jews aren't the only victims. But you forget that in the end of the war the russians/communists had a refuge while the Jews had no place to go (no country wanted to take them). I'm not looking for compensation - just a homeland. [/EDIT] I gave the example of the black president to show that even though the law permits one running for president there's still a long way until this will actually happen. It takes years to change laws, and generations to change people. I'd be happy to discuss this further elsewhere: ICQ: 44992613 MSN: i_sasson@homtail.com email: saisaac@gmail.com Isaac Sasson "I hate it. Java sucks. And Java's generics suck harder. And in general, Java just sucks." - David Stone, The Lounge (May 1st 2006)
Isaac Sasson wrote:
I won't address each and every point you made because I do not want to start an argument in the Lounge.
I also do not want an argument. I prefer to think of it as a discussion where people voice their opinions and others respond with theirs. If there are any other aspects of this discussion you would like to take offline my personal email address is on the notification you will receive from CP. Please feel free to contact me there if there are any other points you would like to discuss. I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes