need advice
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
Get it fixed. You got into it and there's no simple way out of it. When you find yourself choosing between money or friends you had better choose friends or before long you won't have any.:rose:
The enemy's gate is down.:cool:
Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog [ ^ ] now.People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
I agree with code-frog. Try to fix it, if you can. Your friend will offer you a dozen or so beers! :-D :beer: Then tell him this is the last time, simply because you haven't time to do that from now on. ___________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA]
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
Why did things stop working ? Because the server side changed ? In that case - the ones who changed whatever it was on the server should pay you to fix things, and your friend should know that. You were paid (little or large doesnt matter) to get things working at some given conditions, and now the conditions have changed. Not your fault. Working for free won't get you anywhere besides tired in the morning. Your friend should not ask you to fix things for free. If they decide to move from a windows-based server to a linux-based server in two months and the static HTML pages your friend made copies just fine - is it your job to make sure that the message board code runs on the new server as well ? No. If this is your fault because the first work wasn't done properly - fix it. Do you know why it's important to make fast decisions? Because you give yourself more time to correct your mistakes, when you find out that you made the wrong one. Chris Meech on deciding whether to go to his daughters graduation or a Neil Young concert
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
Fix it once, but demand a permanent solution. I was uncertain at first, but code-frog is right 100%. You should fix it this time, but you also have to make sure they don't come knocking every week. So before doing anything, demand that you or your friend) make(s) an agreement with the company that all three can live with. I just hope the company knows he didn't do it himself, ths makes haggling easier. Also, friends don't let friends stay in "fix it forever for no money" agreements :cool:
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
I agree with code-frog, also. I'd also stress, as was pointed out, to come to an agreement with your friend about future support. He may have agreed to handle support at no cost, but that does [not] obligate you to do the same. Help out your friend this time, I'd say, but make sure he understands your sacrifice and that it isn't really fair of him to assume you'll solve these problems again in the future for free. BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven Wright-- modified at 15:48 Sunday 30th April, 2006
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
Isaac Sasson wrote:
What should I do?
I'll buck the trend here, and say that it's never too late to renegotiate and agreement. Things change. Like you said, five months have gone by. Basically, if you haven't heard peep from your friend, and your friend hasn't heard peep from his client, than I think a renegotiate is fair game. At some point you have to say, "look, you haven't kept me on a retainer, and for all practical purposes, I assumed this contract was closed." Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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Fix it once, but demand a permanent solution. I was uncertain at first, but code-frog is right 100%. You should fix it this time, but you also have to make sure they don't come knocking every week. So before doing anything, demand that you or your friend) make(s) an agreement with the company that all three can live with. I just hope the company knows he didn't do it himself, ths makes haggling easier. Also, friends don't let friends stay in "fix it forever for no money" agreements :cool:
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighistExcellent point. The scope of the fix needs to be identified. That way the fix is fixing a current problem and the scope is restricted to that problem.
The enemy's gate is down.:cool:
Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog [ ^ ] now.People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
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Isaac Sasson wrote:
What should I do?
I'll buck the trend here, and say that it's never too late to renegotiate and agreement. Things change. Like you said, five months have gone by. Basically, if you haven't heard peep from your friend, and your friend hasn't heard peep from his client, than I think a renegotiate is fair game. At some point you have to say, "look, you haven't kept me on a retainer, and for all practical purposes, I assumed this contract was closed." Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
A good point. My only point was that you don't let money come between friends. Now there are *some* friends who just about anything can come between because this earth is full of people like *some* friends. If it's a *some* friend then I'd take a stand and like you said negotiate or walk. I'm guessing there's some gray area to the situation and that Isaac does have some responsibility to fix something but he's unsure if *that* responsibility obligates him to eat the cost of the entire thing. Gray areas can be very dangerous and as they expression goes, "Here there be dragons.". Good call though Marc I appreciate your perspective on this one.
The enemy's gate is down.:cool:
Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog [ ^ ] now.People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
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A good point. My only point was that you don't let money come between friends. Now there are *some* friends who just about anything can come between because this earth is full of people like *some* friends. If it's a *some* friend then I'd take a stand and like you said negotiate or walk. I'm guessing there's some gray area to the situation and that Isaac does have some responsibility to fix something but he's unsure if *that* responsibility obligates him to eat the cost of the entire thing. Gray areas can be very dangerous and as they expression goes, "Here there be dragons.". Good call though Marc I appreciate your perspective on this one.
The enemy's gate is down.:cool:
Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog [ ^ ] now.People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
code-frog wrote:
My only point was that you don't let money come between friends.
I quite agree with you. Money can create false friendship and destroy real ones. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
Real friends would never require one to work for free, if they profit on your work. A friend would never take advantage of you, and your friendship would not be ruined by an incedent like this. Personally, I have nothing against working for friends for free, but if I am working for customers of my friends, I charge full price (well, sometimes I also provides a discount). And like Jan says, if the project worked and the problem has to do with the server, then the problem belongs to the customer and his relationship with the host. Your friend is not obligated to redesign the code, because the server changes settings. This is really an unfair solution, if the customer demands your friend to change the code due to changed server issues.
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
I'll throw my hat in the ring. The real question is, on what basis did you do this work, and what was spelled out ? If the guy is not a programmer, did you spell out that there could be issues if the server was changed, for example ? The main reason people get into trouble working for friends is that they don't spell out their expectations. If you're in that boat, you probably need to sort it out, then from a position of having done that, spell out why you think it's better that you don't work together again, for the sake of the friendship. Or, at least, admit that you are partially to blame, and that things would need to be spelled out better in future. As someone else said, if your code is fine, then the people running hte server are the ones responsible. Your biggest problem here is that hte guy telling this to the client has no idea what he's talking about :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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I'll throw my hat in the ring. The real question is, on what basis did you do this work, and what was spelled out ? If the guy is not a programmer, did you spell out that there could be issues if the server was changed, for example ? The main reason people get into trouble working for friends is that they don't spell out their expectations. If you're in that boat, you probably need to sort it out, then from a position of having done that, spell out why you think it's better that you don't work together again, for the sake of the friendship. Or, at least, admit that you are partially to blame, and that things would need to be spelled out better in future. As someone else said, if your code is fine, then the people running hte server are the ones responsible. Your biggest problem here is that hte guy telling this to the client has no idea what he's talking about :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
you spell out that there could be issues if the server was changed, for example ?
My condition for doing the job was that I'd pick the server, otherwise it won't go. Now they want to move it to a different one. With a different client I wouldn't give the time a day, since it wasn't the agreement. Only because it's a friend and he want to keep good relations with this company. Isaac Sasson
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Christian Graus wrote:
you spell out that there could be issues if the server was changed, for example ?
My condition for doing the job was that I'd pick the server, otherwise it won't go. Now they want to move it to a different one. With a different client I wouldn't give the time a day, since it wasn't the agreement. Only because it's a friend and he want to keep good relations with this company. Isaac Sasson
OK, then your terms are being breached. It's up to you if you want to stick your heels in, or allow this at no cost. Personally, I'd be asking if your friend passed on the fact that they could not move servers, seeing as you seem to think they don't have to pay to breach your terms. Why does your code only work on one server ? Why did they want to move it ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
you spell out that there could be issues if the server was changed, for example ?
My condition for doing the job was that I'd pick the server, otherwise it won't go. Now they want to move it to a different one. With a different client I wouldn't give the time a day, since it wasn't the agreement. Only because it's a friend and he want to keep good relations with this company. Isaac Sasson
If they want it ported to another server they pay your fee. Your friend can always make it clear he isn't making anything out of it as a gesture of good will. Otherwise they will keep using you like this because it works. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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code-frog wrote:
My only point was that you don't let money come between friends.
I quite agree with you. Money can create false friendship and destroy real ones. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
Marc Clifton wrote:
Money can create false friendship and destroy real ones.
5, one of the best quotes I've ever read Go Habs Go
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
I've been reading some answers here and I can't believe what I just read. "I'll lose my friend if I don't work a lot for free". Now, that's a friend I'd love to lose. "Do it just this time, and warn him the next time you won't do it". If he can't afford paying you now, what makes you think he'll do it next time? Please, let me say first that you don't deserve to be in that situation. If I understood correctly, you received a fair price for your work (little money or not, you settled for that), and delivered your services. They're using it for 5 months now, without a single problem in your work. I believe you should make things clear and say that you're a professional. A professional works for money. If this is not a problem with your code, make it clear, and ask for a fair price.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money.
He doesn't seem to feel bad asking you to work for free. I had a lot of "friends" like this in the past. I was once so naive that I loaned *a lot* (no, let me rephrase that) *a BIG, HUGE, F****ING LOT* of money to a "friend" to not lose his friendship: he was crying for help, with 2 starving kids. Needless to say, I lost the money, and the guy doesn't talk to me anymore. There's a saying here that if a friend borrows money from you, you'll lose both. I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!
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Why did things stop working ? Because the server side changed ? In that case - the ones who changed whatever it was on the server should pay you to fix things, and your friend should know that. You were paid (little or large doesnt matter) to get things working at some given conditions, and now the conditions have changed. Not your fault. Working for free won't get you anywhere besides tired in the morning. Your friend should not ask you to fix things for free. If they decide to move from a windows-based server to a linux-based server in two months and the static HTML pages your friend made copies just fine - is it your job to make sure that the message board code runs on the new server as well ? No. If this is your fault because the first work wasn't done properly - fix it. Do you know why it's important to make fast decisions? Because you give yourself more time to correct your mistakes, when you find out that you made the wrong one. Chris Meech on deciding whether to go to his daughters graduation or a Neil Young concert
Hear hear. Jeremy Falcon
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code-frog wrote:
My only point was that you don't let money come between friends.
I quite agree with you. Money can create false friendship and destroy real ones. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
Marc Clifton wrote:
Money can create false friendship and destroy real ones.
Amen to that. Jeremy Falcon
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A friend of mine designed a website for some company. He's a graphics designer and not much of a programmer, but it was a simple project and he managed to complete it quite well. During the project the company asked him for additional features including a message board. At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project. So He took me as a sub-contract (at a small pay) since he wanted to look professional to the company which hired him. I didn't have any touch with the company directly. I completed the job in a couple of days and everyone was satisfied. 5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code). Since my friend is not a programmer, he turned to me. I contacted the host and tried to work things out, but it seems that it'll take more time than I thought. Now I've got a problem. Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay. He wants me to work things out. On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay (and don't have spare time right now anyway), on the other hand I feel bad turning my friend down or asking for more money. What should I do? Isaac Sasson
Isaac Sasson wrote:
At that point he asked me for a favor helping him completing the project
No good deed goes unpunished! :~
Isaac Sasson wrote:
5 months passed and now there are some problems with the message board (originating in the server, not the code).
New specifications mean a new contract and compensatipon for work to accomplish the new implementation.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
Even though my friend finished the project months ago, he is still obligated to solve this issue at no extra pay
Why no additional compensation? :| If he volunteered to support this web site without additional compensation then he has just learned a valuable lesson; :doh: always address continuing maintenance in the original agreement. You have also just learned a valuable lesson; do not accept work without a contract specifying acceptance conditions. :doh: At the least you should be aware of the contractual agreement your friend had with the client.
Isaac Sasson wrote:
On the one hand I've spent too much time already about this and got very little pay
As I said before no good deed goes unpunished. It is time to have a heart to heart talk with your friend. :( Have him, and possibly you, discuss with the client compensation for new features. A change in server configuration is a new feature! Having said all that your next move really depends on how close you are with this friend. If you are close friends you are beat :sigh: and pretty much need to help him out this one last time. Make sure he understands that it is a favor to him and not to expect any more support without compensation. If you are casual friends then make sure you get compensated. :| Discuss that this is the last time you will be able to support the project and that he should look for another sub-contractor to continue with any additional work on the project. Good luck. I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes