How much Notice would you give?
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Here in the US, two weeks is the generally accepted notice requirement. If you're required to give a month, then you are fulfilling your obligation, but the comment about references and not burning bridges is also important to bear in mind. I find there's no hard and fast answer to this. In our industry, programmers are routinely abused and taken advantage of (countless hours of unpaid overtime, repeated cancellations of scheduled time off, and much more). I would say that how they treat you is how you should treat them. If they've been good to you, you might want to cut them some slack and maybe give them 6 weeks notice as a gesture of good faith. If they routinely manipulate you, then they'll be no true friend on a reference call anyway, so give them the required minimum. As an example, I spent 5 years (on a 6 month contract) writing air traffic control software for a company that was a small, family owned shop. With less than 30 people in the building, it was one of those rare gigs where I actually liked everyone there as a person, and they always treated me well. When the company had a slow year and had to cut back, I was the first to go. My response? I went across the street, bought a "thank you" card expressing how much I enjoyed the gig, and put it on the fridge in the kitchen. There was no calculated "payback" or reason for it. I just believe that when people treat you nicely, you should do the same. I also told them to call me if they ever needed any help with my code. Some time later I got a call from the guy I worked for, who immediately offered to pay me a comparable hourly rate to walk the person who'd inherited my code through a problem. I was able to do it by phone in a couple of hours, and declined payment as it was a small effort, and since at this point I consider these guys to be friends. In contrast, there have been times in my life where people and / or companies tried, in very blatant terms, to screw me. In those cases, I felt no loyalty whatsoever and gave them the bare minimum of consideration. So, here's a simply way to think of it. If this was a personal relationship, how were you treated and how would you handle it when departing? The same rules apply, really, whether you're dealing with people or companies.
Author of The Career Programmer and
Its been a bit of a mix over the past 4 years. I have learnt a lot from working here but also there have been a few times when i have just felt like walking out. Its better now than it used to be but the damage was done a long time ago really. In all i wont miss the place and there is no doubt in my mind that i am doing the right thing in leaving. I think part of the reason i havent told them before now is that i have no doubt that attitudes would change and it would be pretty bad and difficult for me. I might give them an extra weeks notice (so that would be 5 weeks). It wont make much difference to me as i will also be out on site for that week so i wont have too many problems. JJ
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I am feeling a little bit mean to my current employer even though i am not really doing anything wrong. I will be leaving at the end of September (going back to education) and i have known this for a while but not said anything. I only have to give 1 months notice so thats what i planned to do. The thing is between already booked holiday, Bank holidays and work travel requirements i will only really see my boss for 1 1/2 weeks after handing in my notice. I will only actually be in work for 2 1/2 weeks. given the current projects etc there is nowhere near enough time to get everything sorted so i will be pretty much leaving them in the lurch. So.... Am i being a bit shadey or is this acceptable? JJ
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What would persuade you to sign such a thing? Is this some secret government project where they have to erase your memory of everything that happened or what?
Logifusion[^] If not entertaining, write your Congressman.
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I am feeling a little bit mean to my current employer even though i am not really doing anything wrong. I will be leaving at the end of September (going back to education) and i have known this for a while but not said anything. I only have to give 1 months notice so thats what i planned to do. The thing is between already booked holiday, Bank holidays and work travel requirements i will only really see my boss for 1 1/2 weeks after handing in my notice. I will only actually be in work for 2 1/2 weeks. given the current projects etc there is nowhere near enough time to get everything sorted so i will be pretty much leaving them in the lurch. So.... Am i being a bit shadey or is this acceptable? JJ
Be very careful about the terms of your contract. Here in the UK it is common that holidays are at the companies discretion and that they may decide to recind their permission for you to take your holidays so that they can have a decent period of time to sort out the handover. If you choose to take the holidays anyway then they might declare that you are in breach of contract and terminate your employment straight away (i.e. stop paying you). Something similar happened with me - I was managing three engineers who had decided to go contracting together, handed in their notice mid week and stated that since they all had sufficient holiday left that they wouldn't be in the next week. The company stood firm and stated that they had to complete the handover process before they left (and that the company would pay them for their unused holidays). They decided to leave anyway and their contracts were terminated without pay nor references. (They were under a bit of a cloud anyway since they had told us what they wanted to do before hand and also stated that they expected to take some of the company's customers with them when they left - something that is not a good idea to do when you are a handful of people against a large multinational corporation. There was a fourth engineer involved, but he was a contractor and he was escorted from the premises immediately on announcing his plans - without even being allowed to go back to his desk). Most companies accept people moving on and will try hard to accomodate their employees wishes. They just want to be able to manage the handover as best they can. Tell them now, keep on good terms with them - you never know when you might want to work for them again
Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue
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Curious - is that 3 month notice a two way commitment?
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. My son's PDA is an M249 SAW. My other son commutes in an M1A2 Abrams
charlieg wrote:
Curious - is that 3 month notice a two way commitment?
I'm also on three months notice and it is two ways
Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue
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jonathan15 wrote:
Am i being a bit shadey or is this acceptable?
As long as you are meeting your contractual obligations then you are doing nothing wrong.
* Developer Day Scotland: are you interested in speaking or attending? My: Website | Blog
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thats pretty much how i am trying to see it. I have been working towards this since Christmas really and when they find out why i am leaving they will have a fair idea i would have known for a while. At the moment they are working on a huge contract for them and me just dissapearing with what is in reality only a couple of weeks notice will cause them some problems fulfilling that. JJ
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What would persuade you to sign such a thing? Is this some secret government project where they have to erase your memory of everything that happened or what?
Logifusion[^] If not entertaining, write your Congressman.
Dustin Metzgar wrote:
What would persuade you to sign such a thing?
In my case it was simple. The stick was an ultimatum that if I didn't sign the new contract then my contract would be terminated. The carrot was the contract change was because I was being promoted to an executive grade :)
Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue
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I am feeling a little bit mean to my current employer even though i am not really doing anything wrong. I will be leaving at the end of September (going back to education) and i have known this for a while but not said anything. I only have to give 1 months notice so thats what i planned to do. The thing is between already booked holiday, Bank holidays and work travel requirements i will only really see my boss for 1 1/2 weeks after handing in my notice. I will only actually be in work for 2 1/2 weeks. given the current projects etc there is nowhere near enough time to get everything sorted so i will be pretty much leaving them in the lurch. So.... Am i being a bit shadey or is this acceptable? JJ
jonathan15 wrote:
How much Notice would you give?
How much would they give it to you?
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What would persuade you to sign such a thing? Is this some secret government project where they have to erase your memory of everything that happened or what?
Logifusion[^] If not entertaining, write your Congressman.
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Standard practise here, once you have been employed for more than 10 years (I am in my 17th year!). One months notice up until your 10th year, and then three after that - guess they consider me a senior! :)
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:
(I am in my 17th year!).
Wow - 17 years in a single company!!!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
I am feeling a little bit mean to my current employer even though i am not really doing anything wrong. I will be leaving at the end of September (going back to education) and i have known this for a while but not said anything. I only have to give 1 months notice so thats what i planned to do. The thing is between already booked holiday, Bank holidays and work travel requirements i will only really see my boss for 1 1/2 weeks after handing in my notice. I will only actually be in work for 2 1/2 weeks. given the current projects etc there is nowhere near enough time to get everything sorted so i will be pretty much leaving them in the lurch. So.... Am i being a bit shadey or is this acceptable? JJ
If your employers are nice people, you can explain to them why you are leaving, and leave in good spirit!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
I am feeling a little bit mean to my current employer even though i am not really doing anything wrong. I will be leaving at the end of September (going back to education) and i have known this for a while but not said anything. I only have to give 1 months notice so thats what i planned to do. The thing is between already booked holiday, Bank holidays and work travel requirements i will only really see my boss for 1 1/2 weeks after handing in my notice. I will only actually be in work for 2 1/2 weeks. given the current projects etc there is nowhere near enough time to get everything sorted so i will be pretty much leaving them in the lurch. So.... Am i being a bit shadey or is this acceptable? JJ
What I have done in situations like this is to offer an as-available consulting agreement. You agree to answer any questions and help them cope for an hourly fee. Since you will be working elsewhere, you can only consult from home at your convenience. Obviously, this arrangement would not work if you were to go to work for their competitor, but since you are going into education, it might work. Don't ever feel bad about giving the required notice, since I have never seen anyone get more than the required contractual notice from an employer. Scott
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Leave the firm in Spetember, and sell yopur time at a contract rate to the firm untill the project is finished. You will have plenty oftime as a student to do the work and billing him $30 plus an hour will buy you plenty of student beer tokens!
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
fat_boy wrote:
and billing him $30 plus an hour
that seems awful low for contract work...
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I am feeling a little bit mean to my current employer even though i am not really doing anything wrong. I will be leaving at the end of September (going back to education) and i have known this for a while but not said anything. I only have to give 1 months notice so thats what i planned to do. The thing is between already booked holiday, Bank holidays and work travel requirements i will only really see my boss for 1 1/2 weeks after handing in my notice. I will only actually be in work for 2 1/2 weeks. given the current projects etc there is nowhere near enough time to get everything sorted so i will be pretty much leaving them in the lurch. So.... Am i being a bit shadey or is this acceptable? JJ
jonathan15 wrote:
The thing is between already booked holiday
Be carefull with that. In case of filing for resignation, the employer has the right to not allow you to go on vacation even if you have vacation days left. I suggest telling them if you got nothing to loose. That way that can have a little more time to hire a new person if it is needed, and will probably mediate your leaving.
regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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I am feeling a little bit mean to my current employer even though i am not really doing anything wrong. I will be leaving at the end of September (going back to education) and i have known this for a while but not said anything. I only have to give 1 months notice so thats what i planned to do. The thing is between already booked holiday, Bank holidays and work travel requirements i will only really see my boss for 1 1/2 weeks after handing in my notice. I will only actually be in work for 2 1/2 weeks. given the current projects etc there is nowhere near enough time to get everything sorted so i will be pretty much leaving them in the lurch. So.... Am i being a bit shadey or is this acceptable? JJ
I think you will find that instead of including your holidays up to your termination of end of September, your management will instead insist that you still continue to work to the end of September and then you can have your paid leave. Your best approach is to go and talk to your boss today and make him/her aware of your plans. Good Luck.
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Nobody likes jerks. [espeir]
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Be very careful about the terms of your contract. Here in the UK it is common that holidays are at the companies discretion and that they may decide to recind their permission for you to take your holidays so that they can have a decent period of time to sort out the handover. If you choose to take the holidays anyway then they might declare that you are in breach of contract and terminate your employment straight away (i.e. stop paying you). Something similar happened with me - I was managing three engineers who had decided to go contracting together, handed in their notice mid week and stated that since they all had sufficient holiday left that they wouldn't be in the next week. The company stood firm and stated that they had to complete the handover process before they left (and that the company would pay them for their unused holidays). They decided to leave anyway and their contracts were terminated without pay nor references. (They were under a bit of a cloud anyway since they had told us what they wanted to do before hand and also stated that they expected to take some of the company's customers with them when they left - something that is not a good idea to do when you are a handful of people against a large multinational corporation. There was a fourth engineer involved, but he was a contractor and he was escorted from the premises immediately on announcing his plans - without even being allowed to go back to his desk). Most companies accept people moving on and will try hard to accomodate their employees wishes. They just want to be able to manage the handover as best they can. Tell them now, keep on good terms with them - you never know when you might want to work for them again
Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue
I am aware of the holidays thing but in that sense it doesnt apply as there is no written contract or terms & conditions but you are right that the company does have the right to cancel my holidays in any case even though they already agreed to them. Jon
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I think you will find that instead of including your holidays up to your termination of end of September, your management will instead insist that you still continue to work to the end of September and then you can have your paid leave. Your best approach is to go and talk to your boss today and make him/her aware of your plans. Good Luck.
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Nobody likes jerks. [espeir]
Yes and that is a possibility. It is all down to how sure\unsure i am as to how they will react. I could quite easily give my notice a week earlier and cancel my holidays (there are things i need to do that week so i couldnt work in any case) requiring them to pay me for my holiday days owing instead. It wouldnt make too much difference as if i did give my notice a week earlier i still wouldnt be in work any longer as i will be on site all that week. The only way they would gain any more time is if i gave them the 5 weeks notice and cancelled my holiday which i wont do as i need to be off for that last week. JJ
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:
(I am in my 17th year!).
Wow - 17 years in a single company!!!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Yep. Lots of "old timers" here - very low turnover of staff. However, the company was recently taken over by a large US outfit, and I went from working for a company of 1,000 people to one of 45,000! Not too many changes yet (for me at least) but I'm sure it will be a very different place 12 months from now...