Programming pain
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
No shoulder pain here, I currently have wrist and lower arm pain, and have been having it off and on for a bit over a month now. In my case I think it is tendonitis. Make sure your posture is good. Take short breaks every 20 mins where you change positions and move around a bit. If you can afford it (I can't right now), get yourself a nice office chair with arm rests and good back support, and an ergonomic keyboard (yes, it can help with shoulder trouble as well because it changes the positions of your arms a bit). I've heard that split keyboards like these[^] are the best when you're dealing with upper arm and shoulder pain.
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
If it's your right shoulder and your right handed and you have a standard huge keyboard you should invest in one of these: http://www.casco.com/psk3300.htm[^] I used to have horrible shoulder pain and realized it's because I was stretching my arm out at an unnatural angle for hours and hours to use the mouse all the time because my keyboard was so big with the number pad and all that it forces the mouse far away from my center area where I type. I honestly don't know why they foist off on use these ridiculous keyboards with the number pad, I actually used to do data entry many years ago and that's all the number pad is good for. Now my mouse is kept very close to my right hand position when typing and I barely have to rotate my shoulder to use it. Of course the rest of the picture is ergonomics 101, go to any of the many websites out there dealing with ergonomics and how to set up your work area and follow the guidelines to the letter and it makes a big difference as well. Lastly you must get much more physical excercise than most and much more than any typical office worker because programming is inherently damaging to the body, we get physically tense often while working and must concentrate extremely hard for many hours at a time. When you think about it, it's an age old form of torture to force a person to a static position for many hours at a time. The programming just distracts us from what would normally drive us crazy. Imagine sitting in the same position with your computer turned off for as many hours as you sit programming and think about how quickly you would notice pain and adjust for comfort that you don't do programming. So it's absolutely critical if you want to have an long enjoyable career programming to get an above average amount of physical excercise to compensate. My only remaining habit I have a hell of a time kicking is leaning forward on my right elbow for long periods of time. Can't seem to kick that habit, but I notice now when I'm doing it and force myself to sit straight. I forgot about it until I saw another post about arm rests, but the other thing I did was remove the arm rests from my chair and that made a huge difference to my shoulder and neck pain. The arm rests were too high and couldn't go any lower and were forcing me to sort of hunch all the time.
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
As much as we all love programming, we do need to get up once in a while and exercise some other part of the body other than your fingers and brain :). Go for regular walks, lift some weights, find a swimming pool... something. For me, working on a car really helps the mental faculties.
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. My son's PDA is an M249 SAW. My other son commutes in an M1A2 Abrams
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No shoulder pain here, I currently have wrist and lower arm pain, and have been having it off and on for a bit over a month now. In my case I think it is tendonitis. Make sure your posture is good. Take short breaks every 20 mins where you change positions and move around a bit. If you can afford it (I can't right now), get yourself a nice office chair with arm rests and good back support, and an ergonomic keyboard (yes, it can help with shoulder trouble as well because it changes the positions of your arms a bit). I've heard that split keyboards like these[^] are the best when you're dealing with upper arm and shoulder pain.
J. Dunlap wrote:
with arm rests
I disagree entirely with this statement. I've removed the arm rests from my otherwise excellent office chair, they were causing a lot of pain by raising my arms up too high while typing. Look at any good typing chair, it never has armrests. Anything that puts any part of your body in an unnatural (resting) position is bad in the long run. Arm rests are good for managers who never actually have to type anything.
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As much as we all love programming, we do need to get up once in a while and exercise some other part of the body other than your fingers and brain :). Go for regular walks, lift some weights, find a swimming pool... something. For me, working on a car really helps the mental faculties.
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. My son's PDA is an M249 SAW. My other son commutes in an M1A2 Abrams
It works for me too. Now, I work from home; so it makes it easy for me to walk around all the time. But, even at work, one should not sit at the desk for long hours. I have found that short periods of walking around helps very much. Of course, regular exercise helps, even if it is just walking.
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
Thank you guys. Reckon there is no pill, eh? Oh well, exercise and tofu, my woman will be happy to hear. How true, though, that our job is unnatural. No wonder my cat looks at me as if I'm crazy. I stare for hours at a wall (for all she can tell) while she sleeps it off...
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
My pain is more in the lower arm and wrist (Carpal Tunnel Syndrone?) I started using two mice, actually a mouse and a trackball. I use one for my left hand and one for my right hand. When one side starts hurting, I move to the other side. But when I'm using the mouse and have to write a lot, I mouse with my left hand and write with my right hand. That doesn't account for the pain in the neck...but my boss isn't here today (Rim shot!) :laugh: ...OK, I'm at work on Saturday, I deserve a few stupid jokes.
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If it's your right shoulder and your right handed and you have a standard huge keyboard you should invest in one of these: http://www.casco.com/psk3300.htm[^] I used to have horrible shoulder pain and realized it's because I was stretching my arm out at an unnatural angle for hours and hours to use the mouse all the time because my keyboard was so big with the number pad and all that it forces the mouse far away from my center area where I type. I honestly don't know why they foist off on use these ridiculous keyboards with the number pad, I actually used to do data entry many years ago and that's all the number pad is good for. Now my mouse is kept very close to my right hand position when typing and I barely have to rotate my shoulder to use it. Of course the rest of the picture is ergonomics 101, go to any of the many websites out there dealing with ergonomics and how to set up your work area and follow the guidelines to the letter and it makes a big difference as well. Lastly you must get much more physical excercise than most and much more than any typical office worker because programming is inherently damaging to the body, we get physically tense often while working and must concentrate extremely hard for many hours at a time. When you think about it, it's an age old form of torture to force a person to a static position for many hours at a time. The programming just distracts us from what would normally drive us crazy. Imagine sitting in the same position with your computer turned off for as many hours as you sit programming and think about how quickly you would notice pain and adjust for comfort that you don't do programming. So it's absolutely critical if you want to have an long enjoyable career programming to get an above average amount of physical excercise to compensate. My only remaining habit I have a hell of a time kicking is leaning forward on my right elbow for long periods of time. Can't seem to kick that habit, but I notice now when I'm doing it and force myself to sit straight. I forgot about it until I saw another post about arm rests, but the other thing I did was remove the arm rests from my chair and that made a huge difference to my shoulder and neck pain. The arm rests were too high and couldn't go any lower and were forcing me to sort of hunch all the time.
John Cardinal wrote:
If it's your right shoulder and your right handed and you have a standard huge keyboard you should invest in one of these: http://www.casco.com/psk3300.htm\[^\] I used to have horrible shoulder pain and realized it's because I was stretching my arm out at an unnatural angle for hours and hours to use the mouse all the time because my keyboard was so big with the number pad and all that it forces the mouse far away from my center area where I type.
Or you could do what I did 13 years ago and put the mouse on the left of the keyboard and learn to use it left handed. I have the alphanumeric keys directly in front of where I type, the keypad if to the right and the mouse to the left. Never had any problems, neck, back or shoulders.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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John Cardinal wrote:
If it's your right shoulder and your right handed and you have a standard huge keyboard you should invest in one of these: http://www.casco.com/psk3300.htm\[^\] I used to have horrible shoulder pain and realized it's because I was stretching my arm out at an unnatural angle for hours and hours to use the mouse all the time because my keyboard was so big with the number pad and all that it forces the mouse far away from my center area where I type.
Or you could do what I did 13 years ago and put the mouse on the left of the keyboard and learn to use it left handed. I have the alphanumeric keys directly in front of where I type, the keypad if to the right and the mouse to the left. Never had any problems, neck, back or shoulders.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
Yes that's definitely an option, I actually tried it before opting for a compact keyboard and I just couldn't imagine getting the hang of it in any reasonable amount of time. Although it did take a while to wean myself off the old big keyboards enter key and backspace and I had to reprogram some of the keys more to my liking (I made two keys into the control key and two into the alt key because they were too hard to hit at first).
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Yes that's definitely an option, I actually tried it before opting for a compact keyboard and I just couldn't imagine getting the hang of it in any reasonable amount of time. Although it did take a while to wean myself off the old big keyboards enter key and backspace and I had to reprogram some of the keys more to my liking (I made two keys into the control key and two into the alt key because they were too hard to hit at first).
John Cardinal wrote:
Yes that's definitely an option, I actually tried it before opting for a compact keyboard and I just couldn't imagine getting the hang of it in any reasonable amount of time.
Fair enough. I was 24 at the time married for a couple of years and had a mortgage. So financially the keyboard change wasn't an option (don't even know if something like that existed back then) so I just had to adapt. Made the change at home and at work and I reckon I was sorted in less than a week.
John Cardinal wrote:
Although it did take a while to wean myself off the old big keyboards enter key and backspace and I had to reprogram some of the keys more to my liking (I made two keys into the control key and two into the alt key because they were too hard to hit at first).
I reckon I would be stuffed. When I use a full sized keyboard with a small backspace key I have to stop and look at it to hit it.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
Thoroughly annoying application to many, but that's the whole point of it for those that don't have the discipline themselves to take breaks: http://www.workrave.org/welcome/[^] :cool:
Wout
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J. Dunlap wrote:
with arm rests
I disagree entirely with this statement. I've removed the arm rests from my otherwise excellent office chair, they were causing a lot of pain by raising my arms up too high while typing. Look at any good typing chair, it never has armrests. Anything that puts any part of your body in an unnatural (resting) position is bad in the long run. Arm rests are good for managers who never actually have to type anything.
You got voted a 1. I guess some manager took offense. :) I agree with you about armrests. I have scapular tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome. Chairs without armrests are the only way I can function without severe pain.
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
You can have your chair adjusted just right, keyboard in the perfect spot, monitor(s) arranged at the proper level and distance... and still mess up your body. The old typing books, written for people hammering on manual typewriters for hours on end, paid a lot of attention to this: you want your feet flat on the floor, your back and shoulders straight, your wrists in line with your hands and forearms, and your head positioned such that you aren't constantly turning back and forth between what you're reading from. Incidentally, this is why monitor position and not having arm rests are key - chances are, if you have to look up or down your neck will be crooked, and if you're resting your elbows or forearms, your wrists and shoulders will be out of line. But these are just guidelines. You may, like John, find that having a wide keyboard with numeric keypad puts your mouse too far from your center to be comfortable. Or, like me, you may have wide shoulders and small hands, and find that small keyboards and narrow work surfaces cause you to hunch your shoulders and do uncomfortable things with your elbows and wrists trying to force them unnaturally close together. Start with the guidelines, but then pay attention to how you actually end up sitting and react accordingly. For instance: i keep a dart board near my workstation. This encourages me to get up and move around, rather than thinking at my keyboard. It also helps me to avoid letting my wrists become limp, which would put me in danger of letting the heals of my palms rest on the keyboard (throwing darts limp-wristed will be instantly painful - fail fast, the old debugging aid).
-- modified by I Hax Life!! on 16:20 Friday 13th Smarch, 2038
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
Anytime I have something like this happen I take one step towards a cure that hasn't let me down yet. I go see a physical therapist. They work on the affected area and make suggestions for avoiding the problem if it happens again. In every case you get sent home with stretches that can be done regularly or as needed. I'd start with an informed professional and go from there.
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Anytime I have something like this happen I take one step towards a cure that hasn't let me down yet. I go see a physical therapist. They work on the affected area and make suggestions for avoiding the problem if it happens again. In every case you get sent home with stretches that can be done regularly or as needed. I'd start with an informed professional and go from there.
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You got voted a 1. I guess some manager took offense. :) I agree with you about armrests. I have scapular tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome. Chairs without armrests are the only way I can function without severe pain.
:) Nah, probably the Univoter striking again. It's really a matter of personal preference, but I've worked programming for a long time and tried just about everything and there may be the perfect height armrest out there, but I have yet to find it and I think it's telling that throughout history any chair designed for typists have always been armrest-less.
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
If you have a medical condition, then a doctor might be worth considering. However, the general advice on exercise, diet, etc. may be more potent than you realize. As an old dog myself, I can assure you that being older doesn't necessarily mean you're forced to live with limitations. On think you might try is Googling for the physical therapy exercises used for rotator cuff injuries. There are 8 or 10 standard ones that will keep showing up in most places. Doing them on a regular basis might build up the strength and flexibility you need and thus eliminate the pain. May not be appropriate for what you're coping with, but it's a thought.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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These days, long hours in front of the computer translate into shoulder pain for me. It's becoming a serious problem. Guess I'm just an old fart. Anyone out there in a similar situation? How do you cope? I'm hoping for some _well-meant_ advice that will keep at the keyboard for a few more years....
Dunno what other advice you got so far, but here's mine. I am going through the same thing, only for me, it's the third time. In the late 80's I worked in a library, lots of data entry, I ended up diagnosed with RSI and on compo for about 6 months. That's time 1. Second time - when I took my second ever dev job, I immediately got all those symptoms. I'd just changed jobs so I didn't tell my boss ( arguably, I got it at my last work, not the one I was at ). So, I paid my own medical, and went to physio once or twice a week. I did speak to my boss, he mentioned he had the same problems and hadn't really thought it through. An occupational therapist came in to work and told us all how best to sit. Short version - make sure your chair gives good back support, does not have arms, and is at a comfortable height. Make sure your monitor(s) are level to your eyes, so you look directly ahead to look at it. This means you need a riser. It doesn't have to be fancy ( mine now is the speakers of my stereo with some fencing paling across them ). The main thing that got me through that time was swimming. I swam 5 times a week, and got up to 15 klm a week. About two years later, I left Dytech to work from home. Immediately, I had the same trouble. As my work picked up, I'd stopped swimming for some time, and now I can't easily get to a pool. I got an OT to come out and look at my workspace, the main thing she noticed was that I was flexing my wrist while I typed. I put a support there so I could tell when my wrist dropped, that fixed itself quickly and made it all tolerable. I do have constant lower back pain, and ongoing shoulder pain, but I go to physio once a week, and with summer coming on, I will swim in the local pool for a few months, which I hope will put it all behind me ( again ). Bottom line - it's managable, if you're willing to get the advice and make the changes, but I suspect once you've had it, you've proven yourself prone to it, and you'll just have to deal with it from time to time. The first time is the scariest, now I know I've got through it and will again. The travel helps, I go to the US 3-4 times a year, and the change of environment usually leaves me better for a bit. We went on an 8 day cruise, I did 2-4 hours a day on the notebook, and still I felt a lot better when I got home.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog