Noah's Ark
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Let me get this right - the church comes up with it's beliefs, then interpretes the Bible to suit ? Roman Catholic, right ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: Let me get this right - the church comes up with it's beliefs, then interpretes the Bible to suit ? Roman Catholic, right ? (I'm speaking of Roman Catholic) The church already has beliefs, it doesn't come up with them. It's beleifs are based on many things, but the most dominant are tradition and the teachings of Jesus. Different parts of the Bible are interpreted with different intentions depending on what message is going to be conveyed. For exaple the story of Noah could be used by the Church to: - Illustrate that God is watching over our societies and has the power to punish - Spread words of Hope and Faith in God There are numerous other messages that can be derived from the story of Noahas Ark. My point is that the Church uses the Bible for many things, one of them is to use it as a tool to spread the Word of God. There is nothing wrong or maliciuos about this. (2b || !2b)
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My churches position is probably reasonably unique, in that I'm yet to meet anyone from another that agrees, but we contend that the flood really happened but the phrase translated 'the face of the earth' really meant the local area. For comparison, Cain was banished from the 'face of the earth', the same phrase is used. We also don't believe the Bible says Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. However, what the Bible does say, we believe to be true. If it says there was a flood, there was a flood. As with all matters of religion, you'll find people who think it was worldwide and those who think it's just a story - pretty much every concievable opinion ( and often some unconcievable ones ) will be represented somewhere. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
I remember seeing a tv programme about the location of the flood. They worked out it was probably where the black sea is now. If the barrier between the Mediterranean and Black Seas was breached, water would pour in at a rate greater than people could escape from. Some estimates put it at >3km per day, which doesn't seem like much, but is enough I think to prevent people from taking any significant amount of belongings. More stuff here
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So Churches pick and choose which bits of the Bible to teach/preach depending on their own point of view. So all of the bible isn't taken as gospel (pun intended). Interesting, sort of makes sense on why we have some many different religions based around the same teachings. So could I be considered a christian if I believed that Jesus Christ was born but wasn't a virgin birth? Michael :-)
Michael P Butler wrote: So could I be considered a christian if I believed that Jesus Christ was born but wasn't a virgin birth? Well that depends on what your definition of being a Christian means. In my opinion a true modern day Christian does not worry too much about these things. (2b || !2b)
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So Churches pick and choose which bits of the Bible to teach/preach depending on their own point of view. So all of the bible isn't taken as gospel (pun intended). Interesting, sort of makes sense on why we have some many different religions based around the same teachings. So could I be considered a christian if I believed that Jesus Christ was born but wasn't a virgin birth? Michael :-)
Michael P Butler wrote: So could I be considered a christian if I believed that Jesus Christ was born but wasn't a virgin birth? No. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Let me get this right - the church comes up with it's beliefs, then interpretes the Bible to suit ? Roman Catholic, right ? (I'm speaking of Roman Catholic) The church already has beliefs, it doesn't come up with them. It's beleifs are based on many things, but the most dominant are tradition and the teachings of Jesus. Different parts of the Bible are interpreted with different intentions depending on what message is going to be conveyed. For exaple the story of Noah could be used by the Church to: - Illustrate that God is watching over our societies and has the power to punish - Spread words of Hope and Faith in God There are numerous other messages that can be derived from the story of Noahas Ark. My point is that the Church uses the Bible for many things, one of them is to use it as a tool to spread the Word of God. There is nothing wrong or maliciuos about this. (2b || !2b)
James Pullicino wrote: (I'm speaking of Roman Catholic) I guessed as much :-) James Pullicino wrote: The church already has beliefs, it doesn't come up with them. It's beleifs are based on many things, but the most dominant are tradition and the teachings of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus were to oppose religious tradition. They were also specific on telling us to do the opposite of many things that are part of Roman Catholic tradition. James Pullicino wrote: There are numerous other messages that can be derived from the story of Noahas Ark. How does one derive these messages without believing the story to be true ? :confused: James Pullicino wrote: My point is that the Church uses the Bible for many things, one of them is to use it as a tool to spread the Word of God. There is nothing wrong or maliciuos about this. I hope I did not imply otherwise. I don't think that the Catholic Church is malicious, as wrong as they are :-D I think we're headed for major disagreement. I am happy to discuss where the Bible and the RCC differ in rant n rave, but I don't think we should take the discussion much further in the lounge. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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My churches position is probably reasonably unique, in that I'm yet to meet anyone from another that agrees, but we contend that the flood really happened but the phrase translated 'the face of the earth' really meant the local area. For comparison, Cain was banished from the 'face of the earth', the same phrase is used. We also don't believe the Bible says Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. However, what the Bible does say, we believe to be true. If it says there was a flood, there was a flood. As with all matters of religion, you'll find people who think it was worldwide and those who think it's just a story - pretty much every concievable opinion ( and often some unconcievable ones ) will be represented somewhere. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
I see one rainbow in the morning and I start thinking :-D My basic thought is, if God created the flood to wipe out the "sinners" but saved the "good guys". How bad must these people have been compared to the "sins" that go on around us everyday. Michael :-)
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I see one rainbow in the morning and I start thinking :-D My basic thought is, if God created the flood to wipe out the "sinners" but saved the "good guys". How bad must these people have been compared to the "sins" that go on around us everyday. Michael :-)
The point of the rainbow was that God promised never to wipe people out by flood again, the next judgement is by fire, and at the end of this age. That's the point of the Gospel age, people get a chance to turn to God. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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I know we have a few people who are know the bible pretty well. I was wondering what the Church's current position is on the Noah's Ark tale. I believe a lot of the Old Testament is considered to be allegorical. Is this true with Noah? Any links you might think are useful and educational? Michael :-)
You just had to go there didn't you? Just had to ask a religious question! :flame: I believe in a Creator (I will not refer to him as God because to me that places too much emphasis on Christianity). I think the Bible is full of a lot of 'good ideas' and models for living your life. By no means will I study it so deeply as to let it consume my existance (as a lot do). I think the most important thing about living is interactions and relationships with people. If you can leave this earth and say you truly affected or provided love for more than a handfull of people then you have accomplished your task. I believe that a lot of religions feel that the Creator is inside all of us as he created us in his image. If any of those religions are correct then by giving that love to people you are infact doing what you are supposed to. Just my views. I like to live my life as a good, caring person and hope that if there is Creator and everything does have some meaning that it (I am sure gender isn't an issue) will see that I'm a good person. But - if that isn't enough and I am supposed to bury myself in prayer then I guess I don't want to be part of that anyway. ---- xian "Winners never quit and quitters never win, but those who never win and never quit are idiots." -despair
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You just had to go there didn't you? Just had to ask a religious question! :flame: I believe in a Creator (I will not refer to him as God because to me that places too much emphasis on Christianity). I think the Bible is full of a lot of 'good ideas' and models for living your life. By no means will I study it so deeply as to let it consume my existance (as a lot do). I think the most important thing about living is interactions and relationships with people. If you can leave this earth and say you truly affected or provided love for more than a handfull of people then you have accomplished your task. I believe that a lot of religions feel that the Creator is inside all of us as he created us in his image. If any of those religions are correct then by giving that love to people you are infact doing what you are supposed to. Just my views. I like to live my life as a good, caring person and hope that if there is Creator and everything does have some meaning that it (I am sure gender isn't an issue) will see that I'm a good person. But - if that isn't enough and I am supposed to bury myself in prayer then I guess I don't want to be part of that anyway. ---- xian "Winners never quit and quitters never win, but those who never win and never quit are idiots." -despair
hollowMedia [0xFA7E] wrote: But - if that isn't enough It's not 'not enough', it's just the wrong direction. The point of Christianity is the grace of God, not being 'good enough'. Of course that doesn't mean not being good, but it also doesn't mean what you've said. Apart from the obvious problems as far as when we die is concerned, I think your statement reflects a good way to live your life though. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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James Pullicino wrote: (I'm speaking of Roman Catholic) I guessed as much :-) James Pullicino wrote: The church already has beliefs, it doesn't come up with them. It's beleifs are based on many things, but the most dominant are tradition and the teachings of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus were to oppose religious tradition. They were also specific on telling us to do the opposite of many things that are part of Roman Catholic tradition. James Pullicino wrote: There are numerous other messages that can be derived from the story of Noahas Ark. How does one derive these messages without believing the story to be true ? :confused: James Pullicino wrote: My point is that the Church uses the Bible for many things, one of them is to use it as a tool to spread the Word of God. There is nothing wrong or maliciuos about this. I hope I did not imply otherwise. I don't think that the Catholic Church is malicious, as wrong as they are :-D I think we're headed for major disagreement. I am happy to discuss where the Bible and the RCC differ in rant n rave, but I don't think we should take the discussion much further in the lounge. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: I think we're headed for major disagreement. I am happy to discuss where the Bible and the RCC differ in rant n rave, but I don't think we should take the discussion much further in the lounge. I have not yet understood where we disagree. Is about whether the RCC states that the story of Noah is true or not? (2b || !2b)
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hollowMedia [0xFA7E] wrote: But - if that isn't enough It's not 'not enough', it's just the wrong direction. The point of Christianity is the grace of God, not being 'good enough'. Of course that doesn't mean not being good, but it also doesn't mean what you've said. Apart from the obvious problems as far as when we die is concerned, I think your statement reflects a good way to live your life though. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
If it's the wrong direction then what happens to me? Will an forever-loving Creator allow me to burn in hell just because I was wrong about one aspect? ---- xian
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Christian Graus wrote: I think we're headed for major disagreement. I am happy to discuss where the Bible and the RCC differ in rant n rave, but I don't think we should take the discussion much further in the lounge. I have not yet understood where we disagree. Is about whether the RCC states that the story of Noah is true or not? (2b || !2b)
It seems to me that any further discussion will end up in me explaining to you why the RCC is wrong about just about everything it preaches. I would be happy to discuss my opinion in a civil manner, but given the subject matter, even if we do so politely and disagree without either of us losing our cool, it could be offensive to others who are also of the Roman Catholic persuasion, hence my feeling that it should move to R&R. I'm as happy to drop it, but I'm uncomfortable with discussing why a major religion is completely wrong in the lounge. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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If it's the wrong direction then what happens to me? Will an forever-loving Creator allow me to burn in hell just because I was wrong about one aspect? ---- xian
hollowMedia [0xFA7E] wrote: If it's the wrong direction then what happens to me? Will an forever-loving Creator allow me to burn in hell just because I was wrong about one aspect? Well, the point is that the gift of God is eternal life. If you're not interested enough ( and I presume you know this is what the church is on about ) then is it His fault you didn't accept it ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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James Pullicino wrote: (I'm speaking of Roman Catholic) I guessed as much :-) James Pullicino wrote: The church already has beliefs, it doesn't come up with them. It's beleifs are based on many things, but the most dominant are tradition and the teachings of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus were to oppose religious tradition. They were also specific on telling us to do the opposite of many things that are part of Roman Catholic tradition. James Pullicino wrote: There are numerous other messages that can be derived from the story of Noahas Ark. How does one derive these messages without believing the story to be true ? :confused: James Pullicino wrote: My point is that the Church uses the Bible for many things, one of them is to use it as a tool to spread the Word of God. There is nothing wrong or maliciuos about this. I hope I did not imply otherwise. I don't think that the Catholic Church is malicious, as wrong as they are :-D I think we're headed for major disagreement. I am happy to discuss where the Bible and the RCC differ in rant n rave, but I don't think we should take the discussion much further in the lounge. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: How does one derive these messages without believing the story to be true ? the same way you can derive meanings from the Winnie the Pooh or The Stranger or Huck Finn. -c
As I bit into the nectarine, it had a crisp juiciness about it that was very pleasurable - until I realized it wasn't a nectarine at all, but A HUMAN HEAD!! Jack Handey
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Christian Graus wrote: How does one derive these messages without believing the story to be true ? the same way you can derive meanings from the Winnie the Pooh or The Stranger or Huck Finn. -c
As I bit into the nectarine, it had a crisp juiciness about it that was very pleasurable - until I realized it wasn't a nectarine at all, but A HUMAN HEAD!! Jack Handey
Those books don't claim to be true, nor are they *written* to teach us anything, but rather to entertain. I hated English at school, because it seemed the subject was about ruining books by trying to read more into them than is there. I guess you'd say the same about the Bible though, right ? :P Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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hollowMedia [0xFA7E] wrote: If it's the wrong direction then what happens to me? Will an forever-loving Creator allow me to burn in hell just because I was wrong about one aspect? Well, the point is that the gift of God is eternal life. If you're not interested enough ( and I presume you know this is what the church is on about ) then is it His fault you didn't accept it ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
The gift is enternal life, but the alternative (punishment) is eternal suffering. Seems like you don't get much choice. If you are born in an area with no contact to the outside world (yes there are still cannibalistic tribes) and you have no way to experience the bible, then what happens to you? ---- xian
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hollowMedia [0xFA7E] wrote: If it's the wrong direction then what happens to me? Will an forever-loving Creator allow me to burn in hell just because I was wrong about one aspect? Well, the point is that the gift of God is eternal life. If you're not interested enough ( and I presume you know this is what the church is on about ) then is it His fault you didn't accept it ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: Well, the point is that the gift of God is eternal life. If you're not interested enough ( and I presume you know this is what the church is on about ) then is it His fault you didn't accept it ? Damn, I wanted to stay out of this one. I would say it is his fault. In the Bible God and then Jesus are popping up everywhere smiting and curing at the drop of a hat. You didn't have to worry about corrupt fuckers twisting words and stories. You got to see and hear that the almighty exhisted. Now He doesn't show up at all. Allows senior members of (possibly) his most populous church to go around fucking children and lying. Having his word mis-translated century after century and generally making it a hit and miss affair of who can see His Word amongst the shit. If he cared he would do something that multiple people could see and verify. Also he would also explain his position on Paedophiles. Sure they get to burn in hell foprever, but what about his victims. Their God allowed them to get fucked nut expects them to sing his praises and then if they don't make a minor fuckup on the way they get to live in heaven. Too smarmy for me. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
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The gift is enternal life, but the alternative (punishment) is eternal suffering. Seems like you don't get much choice. If you are born in an area with no contact to the outside world (yes there are still cannibalistic tribes) and you have no way to experience the bible, then what happens to you? ---- xian
hollowMedia [0xFA7E] wrote: The gift is enternal life, but the alternative (punishment) is eternal suffering. It is arguable from the Bible that the alternative is simply to cease to exist. But that is another story. hollowMedia [0xFA7E] wrote: If you are born in an area with no contact to the outside world (yes there are still cannibalistic tribes) and you have no way to experience the bible, then what happens to you? THEN the Bible says you are judged on your works, so that everyone gets a chance. This is however clearly not relevant to anyone in the Western world, in the least. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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The gift is enternal life, but the alternative (punishment) is eternal suffering. Seems like you don't get much choice. If you are born in an area with no contact to the outside world (yes there are still cannibalistic tribes) and you have no way to experience the bible, then what happens to you? ---- xian
Actually the bible says nothing about 'eternal suffering'. That is a concept that comes from greek traditions of the afterlife, not christian ones. The only 'punishment' Christianity invokes is to not be allowed to have eternal life. Basically (IMHO) you will just become what all animals become upon death - nothing. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
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Christian Graus wrote: Well, the point is that the gift of God is eternal life. If you're not interested enough ( and I presume you know this is what the church is on about ) then is it His fault you didn't accept it ? Damn, I wanted to stay out of this one. I would say it is his fault. In the Bible God and then Jesus are popping up everywhere smiting and curing at the drop of a hat. You didn't have to worry about corrupt fuckers twisting words and stories. You got to see and hear that the almighty exhisted. Now He doesn't show up at all. Allows senior members of (possibly) his most populous church to go around fucking children and lying. Having his word mis-translated century after century and generally making it a hit and miss affair of who can see His Word amongst the shit. If he cared he would do something that multiple people could see and verify. Also he would also explain his position on Paedophiles. Sure they get to burn in hell foprever, but what about his victims. Their God allowed them to get fucked nut expects them to sing his praises and then if they don't make a minor fuckup on the way they get to live in heaven. Too smarmy for me. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
Michael Martin wrote: In the Bible God and then Jesus are popping up everywhere smiting and curing at the drop of a hat. Actually the smiting was pretty much all in the Old Testament. The healing still occurs today. Michael Martin wrote: You didn't have to worry about corrupt f***ers twisting words and stories. Not so - the point of much of Jesus ministry was to both show the way to God and to expose the religious leaders of the day, who just like most today either were sincerely wrong, or had their own agenda which did not include God. Michael Martin wrote: You got to see and hear that the almighty exhisted. Would you like details of a church in Sydney where you can see and hear that the almighty exists ? Michael Martin wrote: Now He doesn't show up at all. Not the case. See above. Michael Martin wrote: Allows senior members of (possibly) his most populous church to go around f***ing children and lying. They have nothing to do with Him, except being foretold of in the Bible. I've talked about this in passing in R&R recently. The Bible is clear that God gives everyone a chance to turn to Him, that includes Martin Bryant, the Governet General, and the Pope. It may not seem fair, but what is *fair* is for no-one to be saved. Therefore, the people you speak of will get their reward in the next life ( I hope you understand I'm not implying it will be anything good ). The victims of such people are also able to turn to God to be healed of the scars they bear. I know a little about this - luckily I was never abused, but I was certainly scarred by an abnormal childhood when I because a Christian, and things that had defined my life because I could not overcome them became irrlevant past history in a moment. Such is the power of God. Michael Martin wrote: Having his word mis-translated century after century and generally making it a hit and miss affair of who can see His Word amongst the shit. The essence of the Gospel is to recieve something from God. I believe that even the worst translation allows this to be comunicated, although I'd still make recommendations with regard to which versions are better, of course. Arguing over this comma and that word is the Law, Jesus came to set us free from that, to make us able