Benefits of atheism
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The Crusades, the Third Reich and the KKK all claimed to be doing the work of Christ.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Yep, thats riddled all right.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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But so are you special, at least, according to Christianity. Stars and galaxies die, but you are eternal.
I'll let you in on a secret: I am not eternal.
-- A Stern Warning of Things to Come
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I've said it before and I will say it again. Personally, I do not care what you believe as long as it DOES NOT HURT OTHER PEOPLE. If you believe flying monkeys will save your soul, fine. What the non-religious need to keep in mind is that for many of us religion does bring us comfort. I personally find praying relaxing and Torah study interesting. Obviously I am not strict on the rules of my religion (I just had shrimp) but the basic structure has been incorporated into who I am and makes me happy. What the relgious need to keep in mind is everyone is free to believe what they want. Religion should never be forced upon anyone. All the major religions promote loving everyone. Teach the other person if they are truly interested in your religion but do not condemn them because they don't agree with your beliefs.
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
leckey wrote:
Religion should never be forced upon anyone.
Could you enforce that principle?
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Why give you the satisfaction?
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
Why give you the satisfaction?
If avoiding pain is a reason to end it all - end it all.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
Most of this is obviously meant in jest, and has no basis in reality.
A very curious claim. My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.
Christian Graus wrote:
Colin Angus Mackay wrote: I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. No-one just 'makes up their own mind' on these things, they respond to social pressures and mores, be it in a church, or just in society as a whole. What is moral is generally accepted, with some slight variation. I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example.
There is a strong social consensus on some matters, but very divided opinion on others, where it is entirely possible and realistic to make up your own mind. I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise. People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind. Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre. Much of the debate inside the modern church is between those who wish to think independently --- and who frequently go through tortured Biblical interpretations to try to reconcile their beliefs with the Biblical text --- and those who want to follow (at least selected parts of) the Bible uncritically. Inbetween are those who are in a permanent state of a crisis of conscience over whether to follow their own concepts of right and wrong and those that they find in the Bible. There are plenty of Christians, for example, who cannot see any reason why homosexuality should be judged sinful and subject to penalties, whether imposed by society or by the church through policies of exclusion, but who nevertheless feel obliged to follow anti-homosexual Christian teachings on the matter.
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.
Are you serious ?
John Carson wrote:
I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise.
I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always. Biblical morality is rarely if ever out of step with general morality in a way that should cause any serious conflict.
John Carson wrote:
People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind.
That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.
John Carson wrote:
Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre.
In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says. The KKK, for example.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I'll let you in on a secret: I am not eternal.
-- A Stern Warning of Things to Come
We'll find out soon enough, as these things are measured, beyond possibility of dispute which of us has the right of it. But speaking of stern warnings of things to come, I can assure you that you'll have no sympathy from me when you end up with the fate you freely chose. I can sympathize now, but things will be different then.
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Wow, this is convoluted.
Ilíon wrote:
That one decides to say it's moral to do this doesn't make it so.
Exactly my point, NO-ONE is free to decide what is moral, society will enforce it's values, if your values deviate too far from the norm.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian, You're confused; you're not thinking clearly. Is it any wonder you see convoluted where there was none? The consequences which may (or may not) immediately follow from one's attempt to "define" one's own "private morality" are quite a different matter from one's freedom to do so. We are all free to decide to believe any old stupid thing we may want to believe. But, that doesn't change reality and that doesn't make consequences go away.
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:) That seems to be your posting style, at least here in the Lounge and on my blog as well. :) Take care, God bless.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Lord's Prayer in Aramaic song (audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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We'll find out soon enough, as these things are measured, beyond possibility of dispute which of us has the right of it. But speaking of stern warnings of things to come, I can assure you that you'll have no sympathy from me when you end up with the fate you freely chose. I can sympathize now, but things will be different then.
I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...
-- [LIVE] From Omicron Persei 8
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We'll find out soon enough, as these things are measured, beyond possibility of dispute which of us has the right of it. But speaking of stern warnings of things to come, I can assure you that you'll have no sympathy from me when you end up with the fate you freely chose. I can sympathize now, but things will be different then.
Dude, don't you see how santimonious this sounds ? It bugs me that Christians can have their own language, which will always turn people off and benefit no-one but the person who feels good for saying what they believe is right.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Yep, thats riddled all right.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ? How many is enough ? Slavery in general ? The Spanish Inquisition ? Burning of witches ? Any of this helping ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Christian, You're confused; you're not thinking clearly. Is it any wonder you see convoluted where there was none? The consequences which may (or may not) immediately follow from one's attempt to "define" one's own "private morality" are quite a different matter from one's freedom to do so. We are all free to decide to believe any old stupid thing we may want to believe. But, that doesn't change reality and that doesn't make consequences go away.
OK, I can see your angle now, and why you're twisting what I said.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...
-- [LIVE] From Omicron Persei 8
One problem many churches goers have is that they all speak the same language, it makes sense to those in their group, and they have no idea how they come across outside their own clique.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ? How many is enough ? Slavery in general ? The Spanish Inquisition ? Burning of witches ? Any of this helping ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Perhaps include these ... Massacre of American Indians by the US Cavalry. Communist revolutions in Russia and China. Japanese Feudal Systems. And the many imperial conquests around the globe.
Well, it becomes more and more tenuous, in terms of implicating the church, but yes, there is still plenty more to go, and the point was made with the three I listed. One is enough to prove the church has not been perfect through the ages.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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OK, I can see your angle now, and why you're twisting what I said.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Well, it becomes more and more tenuous, in terms of implicating the church, but yes, there is still plenty more to go, and the point was made with the three I listed. One is enough to prove the church has not been perfect through the ages.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Dude, don't you see how santimonious this sounds ? It bugs me that Christians can have their own language, which will always turn people off and benefit no-one but the person who feels good for saying what they believe is right.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
"Dude, don't you see how santimonious this sounds ?" 'Sanctimonious' is meaningless if reality is as the 'atheists' want it to be. And it's pointless to be overly concerned about how people freely choose to misunderstand things clearly said. "It bugs me that Christians can have their own language, which will always turn people off and benefit no-one but the person who feels good for saying what they believe is right." I agree, far too many Christians are speaking "Christian-ese."
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John Carson wrote:
My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.
Are you serious ?
John Carson wrote:
I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise.
I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always. Biblical morality is rarely if ever out of step with general morality in a way that should cause any serious conflict.
John Carson wrote:
People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind.
That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.
John Carson wrote:
Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre.
In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says. The KKK, for example.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Are you serious ?
Yes.
Christian Graus wrote:
I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always.
If you kept reading, you would see that I discuss a range of Christian positions.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.
Indeed it isn't always a good thing. But presumably the writer of the piece didn't think that (s)he personally was likely to go off the deep end inventing a destructive morality, and presumably thought that most others weren't likely to do so either. In any case, serial killers aren't serial killers because, after deep philosophical reflection, they decided that killing people represented a higher ethic. They are driven by a psychopathology --- generally either something chemical in their brain or the result of horrendous mistreatment.
Christian Graus wrote:
In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says.
Indeed, and I acknowledged that in my comments. However, they are not being "good Christians" when they behave this way. Moreover, it is clearly the case that many Christians are constrained in their behaviour and in their opinions by their belief that they should follow what the Bible says. This is easier to do, incidentally, when it comes to making declarations about how others should behave than when modifying one's own personal behaviour.
John Carson
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I'll let you in on a secret: I am not eternal.
-- A Stern Warning of Things to Come