Health Insurance in US
-
My inlaws showed my the bill for my wife's birth back in 1955. The complete charge, covering everything, including a seven day stay in the hospital was $125.00. They didn't have insurance because they did not need it. A middle class income was sufficinet to cover their health needs. Health care was affordable because it was driven by market forces (competitive forces:rose: ). Health care costs have far exceeded inflation because they have become independent of simple capitalistic parameters. The reason for this is the reliance upon health insurance scams (it should be outlawed) and because of government bureacratic bungling. Capitalism is the solution to the problem, not socialism. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
Well it's not quite as simple as that. If my friends baby had been born in 1955 it would have died. Simple as that. 20-30K is still way in excess of what I would have thought even a complicated situtation would have required (and in fact it would have been higher still, as the hospital wanted to keep the baby in the intensive care crib for even longer, but my friend wanted to take the baby home) Have fun, Paul Westcott.
-
Well it's not quite as simple as that. If my friends baby had been born in 1955 it would have died. Simple as that. 20-30K is still way in excess of what I would have thought even a complicated situtation would have required (and in fact it would have been higher still, as the hospital wanted to keep the baby in the intensive care crib for even longer, but my friend wanted to take the baby home) Have fun, Paul Westcott.
Paul Westcott wrote: If my friends baby had been born in 1955 it would have died. Simple as that. 20-30K is still way in excess of what I would have thought even a complicated situtation would have required (and in fact it would have been higher still, as the hospital wanted to keep the baby in the intensive care crib for even longer, but my friend wanted to take the baby home) Yes but the point is that even a normal pregnancy with a seven day stay in the hospital will cost upwards of $10,000 today. THat is far in excess of inflation from 1955. Health care inflation has been on the order of 10 times normal inflation. Why? Because the price of health care is no longer governed by capitalistic economic principles. With normal inflation your friends complicated birth should have been no more than 2000-3000, a price which they probably could have managed to pay on their own, not easily perhaps, but doable. Very little of the money we spend on health care actually goes to health care. Most of it goes to the bloated bureacratic infrastructure (governement in socialist systems, insurance industries in private systems) which the medical industry is currently embedded within. If forced to survive in a purely capitalistic system, the health care industry would quickly shed that infrastructure and again operate in an efficient way, and your health care dollars would again be paying for nothing but your health care. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
-
Someone seems to have said that healthcare in the US is as good as any other country, which I strongly disagree. Both my wife's employer and mine provide "good" health insurance (we have to pay our share of course). However, there are things that are just annoying. 1. The insurance company almost never pays the full amount it should. We have to make multiple phone calls to get them to pay to the bill, otherwise we will be responsible for it. Sometimes when the amount is small, we just pay ourselves to avoid the trouble. 2. The insurance company seems to assume everyone is guilty (of insurance fraud) until proven innocent. I used to have too much confidence in my health so that I haven't visited a doctor until I was over 40 years old. This must be good for the insurance company since I am paying for my coverage all the time, right? Wrong! When I first visited the doctor to have a check-up, the insurance company refused to pay the bill because they think I have another insurance coverage. But they didn't even bother to give me a call. It was my responsiblity to make multiple phone calls (again) to straighten everything out. 3. When my wife was a poor student, the hospital charged a lot more than the insurance was willing to pay. However they charged less for someone without insurance, so we ended up paying almost the same amount. 4. A friend of mine has a small restraunt. His father had a stroke and stayed in the hospital for two months and the insurance bill was over a million. You thought he would have to go bankrupt because nobody would insure a 80 year old man. But he knew how to play the game, he had listed his father as an employee in his restraunt and ensured him as a new employee a year ago (although he could never work), he and his lawyer made the insurance company pay every dime. We have friends from France, Switzerland, and my brother lives in Canada. According to them, their healthcare are not just better, it almost sounds like heaven to me.
Black Cat wrote: 1. The insurance company almost never pays the full amount it should. We have to make multiple phone calls to get them to pay to the bill, otherwise we will be responsible for it. Sometimes when the amount is small, we just pay ourselves to avoid the trouble. The Doctors tell me that my HMO is one of the best and they refused to pay for oxygen during my ambulance trip to the hospital. :confused: Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!
-
Well, it seems like this system offer relatively poor people in medical need two solutions: 1. Commit a crime. 2. Beg for mercy and charity. Nice... Jan "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!"
jan larsen wrote: Well, it seems like this system offer relatively poor people in medical need two solutions: 1. Commit a crime. 2. Beg for mercy and charity. What about a third option? "Get a job." I'm a firm believer that people should be held accountable for their own choices in life. -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
-
Andy Metcalfe wrote: True - it is fraud, and as such is illegal and wrong. However, I would argue that any patient who can't get insurance in such a system (especially if they're refused it for whatever reason) should be guaranteed the same standard of care as anyone else - regardless of whether they can pay. And just why should anyone be "guaranteed" a standard of health care? And who should guarantee it? I worked until yesterday just to pay my 2002 taxes (local, state, federal). Shoud I work another month to pay additional taxes so everyone can be so guaranteed? I don't think so. This is an individual, personal, and/or family problem - not a societal one. Insurance is available for anyone who is willing to pay the cost as long as they never have a break in coverage (and simply re-enter the system when ill). Not having insurance is generally a personal choice made on the basis of cost. Yes it is more (much more) expensive as you age but the fact is it, health care, is more esxpensive the older you get. Just my opinion - Mike
Mike Gaskey wrote: And just why should anyone be "guaranteed" a standard of health care? And who should guarantee it? I worked until yesterday just to pay my 2002 taxes (local, state, federal). Shoud I work another month to pay additional taxes so everyone can be so guaranteed? I don't think so. This is an individual, personal, and/or family problem - not a societal one. Insurance is available for anyone who is willing to pay the cost as long as they never have a break in coverage (and simply re-enter the system when ill). Not having insurance is generally a personal choice made on the basis of cost. Yes it is more (much more) expensive as you age but the fact is it, health care, is more esxpensive the older you get. Sorry, but I (and most in Europe I suspect) see Healthcare differently. If everybody could get insurance at rates they could afford, and the insurance companies paid up promptly and in full (and without haggling or being "chased" by the patient), I would have no hesitation in saying that "The US system seems to work for them. Fair play to them". However it's plain to me that obviously that's not the case. I am really glad I live in the UK and don't have to worry about it! Just curious: Your post suggests you paid your tax as a lump sum, which I would have thought would make it harder to pay. Is this the case? (Tax here is usually collected at source under a system called PAYE). FYI: I pay higher rate income tax at 40% and National Insurance at 9%. As of this month, the NI rate has been increased to 10% to provide additional resources to the NHS. The consensus in the UK seems to be that people are happy about this, and I for one don't begrudge a penny of it. :) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Black Cat wrote: 1. The insurance company almost never pays the full amount it should. We have to make multiple phone calls to get them to pay to the bill, otherwise we will be responsible for it. Sometimes when the amount is small, we just pay ourselves to avoid the trouble. The Doctors tell me that my HMO is one of the best and they refused to pay for oxygen during my ambulance trip to the hospital. :confused: Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!
Cathy wrote: The Doctors tell me that my HMO is one of the best and they refused to pay for oxygen during my ambulance trip to the hospital. I'm so sorry to hear that - it's truly disgusting that they should treat you like that. These people are below contempt. :mad: Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Does that mean that your doctors, nurses, etc are government employees? If so, I *REALLY* hope that they aren't even the tiniest bit like government employed construction workers in the U.S. BTW, if I'm understanding you right, what incentive (other than the desire to help people) does any hospital have for putting serious effort into new medical research? John
John Fisher wrote: Does that mean that your doctors, nurses, etc are government employees? If so, I *REALLY* hope that they aren't even the tiniest bit like government employed construction workers in the U.S. BTW, if I'm understanding you right, what incentive (other than the desire to help people) does any hospital have for putting serious effort into new medical research? Doctors and other medical staff are employed by the individual NHS Trusts which are non-profit making organistations effectively owned by government, although in practice they're pretty much autonomous - Government doesn't as far as I know intervene in day to day operations. Consultants and GPs are effectively self employed, and work under contract to the NHS. I've no idea how the contract rates are fixed, but I suspect a bit of negotiation goes on. There is a very strong "care" culture in our health service. In my own experience NHS medical staff are without doubt the most dedicated group of people I've ever met - they often work much longer hours than they should just to help others. IMHO, they don't receive anything like the rewards they should for the personal sacrifices they make. <rant>This is in complete contrast to most local government employees I've come across - but don't get me started on that</rant> As far as research goes I believe there are numerous joint research efforts underway between the NHS Trusts themselves, and Universities and other organisations around the country. I don't the details, but based on the number of new treatments which are reported on the news it seems to work quite well. :) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Andy Metcalfe wrote: The NHS is broken into "Trusts" (introduced by a previous Conservative government) which run the hospitals and employ the bulk of the medical staff directly. This could NEVER work in the US. This would make our doctors, nurses, lab technicians, etc. government employees. We haven't had a government employee do ANYTHING in decades!!! ;P Honestly, I shudder to think about the quality of healthcare anywhere in the world when it is provided by civil servants. X| X|
Mike Mullikin :beer:Our lager, Who art in barrels, Hallowed be thy drink, Thy will be drunk, (I will be drunk) At home as I am in the tavern, Give us this day our foamy head, And forgive us our spillages, As we forgive those who spill against us, And lead us not to incarceration, But deliver us from hangovers, For thine is beer, The bitter and the lager, Forever and ever, Barmen.:beer:
Mike Mullikin wrote: This could NEVER work in the US. This would make our doctors, nurses, lab technicians, etc. government employees. We haven't had a government employee do ANYTHING in decades!!! Honestly, I shudder to think about the quality of healthcare anywhere in the world when it is provided by civil servants. ROFL :laugh: I think that just illustrates the difference in our societies. Here, healthcare staff are probably the single most respected and hardworking group of workers in the country. One thing they aren't is "civil servants" - that breed wouldn't last a shift in most hospitals. Don't worry - we know what we're doing, and it's right for us. :D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
jan larsen wrote: Well, it seems like this system offer relatively poor people in medical need two solutions: 1. Commit a crime. 2. Beg for mercy and charity. What about a third option? "Get a job." I'm a firm believer that people should be held accountable for their own choices in life. -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
Jack Handy wrote: What about a third option? "Get a job." Many people who work cannot afford insurance. I believe they are called the working poor. Surely you've heard of them. Jack Handy wrote: I'm a firm believer that people should be held accountable for their own choices in life. :confused: I'm sure that if they could get a job that offered health insurance or that paid more they would take it. Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!