When will AERO be useful?
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Well... for now is just cute... In fact it's just cutter than XP. How many of you would like to have something like these functionalities? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsxaMyFV2Y&NR=1 what's the use of Aero?! I only see some use on the taskbar preview and the alt+tab preview. The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working? I can say that I NEVER use it... really... NEVER! and I even have a mouse with a shortcut button for it. Is it impossible for 3rd party to create new/useful desktop enhancements on Vista? Thanks! Alex
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Well... for now is just cute... In fact it's just cutter than XP. How many of you would like to have something like these functionalities? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsxaMyFV2Y&NR=1 what's the use of Aero?! I only see some use on the taskbar preview and the alt+tab preview. The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working? I can say that I NEVER use it... really... NEVER! and I even have a mouse with a shortcut button for it. Is it impossible for 3rd party to create new/useful desktop enhancements on Vista? Thanks! Alex
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Mmmmmmmm. Minty.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Well... for now is just cute... In fact it's just cutter than XP. How many of you would like to have something like these functionalities? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsxaMyFV2Y&NR=1 what's the use of Aero?! I only see some use on the taskbar preview and the alt+tab preview. The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working? I can say that I NEVER use it... really... NEVER! and I even have a mouse with a shortcut button for it. Is it impossible for 3rd party to create new/useful desktop enhancements on Vista? Thanks! Alex
Aero is a joke. Windows-Tab is useless. The transparent window borders makes it difficult to discern the active windows from other windows. etc. etc. Combined with Vista's other stupidities: file copying, side panel, UACP, etc. etc. one wonders what Microsoft were thinking. If it wasn't to much of a hassle I'd go back to XP. But when KDE 4 is out I'll consider switching to Linux.
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, `Who is destroying the world?' You are."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand -
Well... for now is just cute... In fact it's just cutter than XP. How many of you would like to have something like these functionalities? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsxaMyFV2Y&NR=1 what's the use of Aero?! I only see some use on the taskbar preview and the alt+tab preview. The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working? I can say that I NEVER use it... really... NEVER! and I even have a mouse with a shortcut button for it. Is it impossible for 3rd party to create new/useful desktop enhancements on Vista? Thanks! Alex
AlexCode wrote:
what's the use of Aero?!
:sigh: I should just write this all down, store it in a document and copy and paste the reply since this question comes up so often now. First off, separate your perceptions of the design from the background science and implimentation. I know it is difficult since everyone is in the "I hate pretty pictures bit" just as they were with the new desktop under XP. WHAT Aero is: 3D acceleration of an operating system desktop. This was not the first, Mac and Linux each have their own equivalent. Actual implimentation of the design differs slightly to greatly in some areas. WHY Aero and other 3D desktops exist: Your graphics card has grown in leaps and bounds, from the first 3D accelerated graphics card to now the growth has been at 1.5 times that of a CPU (not the speed, but the actual growth rate of the speed). This means that 3D accelerators have been increasing in speed significantly faster than CPUs. Windows uses a dual mode graphics system for pre-Aero desktops. Windows acceleration has been strictly 2D operations memory moves, memory buffers, extended desktop reference frame buffers, etc. This is actually the hardest way to draw an image. Why can I draw 30,000 sq km of textured terrain at 4m resolution 60 times a second and windows XP significantly reduces speed with only 20 windows on the desktop? Of course the usual response is: close down so many windows, Windows hates to have windows open? :confused: hmmmm... interesting.... Well, I don't know about you, but when I am debugging I generally have more application windows open, plus significantly larger desktops provided by 30" screens provide room for more windows.... except the larger raster area of 30" monitors reduced speed even more, again more memory to move, more buffers to hold, overlapping windows make it slower still. What is so special about 3D graphics: 3D acceleration uses a depth buffer and matrix operations. The GPU's vertex engine (or uniform stream processor in the latest cards) are exceptionally good at handling matrix calls, about 50 times faster than the same matrix call on the CPU, and approximately 100 times faster than a memory move on a near full-screen window. The 3D desktop "can be" handled much faster on a 3D graphics card than using memory block moves and hiding buffers under 2D acceleration. Where 2D accelerated "move" of a window requires a memory move of a section of memory equivalent to the size of the window, a 3D "move" re
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AlexCode wrote:
what's the use of Aero?!
:sigh: I should just write this all down, store it in a document and copy and paste the reply since this question comes up so often now. First off, separate your perceptions of the design from the background science and implimentation. I know it is difficult since everyone is in the "I hate pretty pictures bit" just as they were with the new desktop under XP. WHAT Aero is: 3D acceleration of an operating system desktop. This was not the first, Mac and Linux each have their own equivalent. Actual implimentation of the design differs slightly to greatly in some areas. WHY Aero and other 3D desktops exist: Your graphics card has grown in leaps and bounds, from the first 3D accelerated graphics card to now the growth has been at 1.5 times that of a CPU (not the speed, but the actual growth rate of the speed). This means that 3D accelerators have been increasing in speed significantly faster than CPUs. Windows uses a dual mode graphics system for pre-Aero desktops. Windows acceleration has been strictly 2D operations memory moves, memory buffers, extended desktop reference frame buffers, etc. This is actually the hardest way to draw an image. Why can I draw 30,000 sq km of textured terrain at 4m resolution 60 times a second and windows XP significantly reduces speed with only 20 windows on the desktop? Of course the usual response is: close down so many windows, Windows hates to have windows open? :confused: hmmmm... interesting.... Well, I don't know about you, but when I am debugging I generally have more application windows open, plus significantly larger desktops provided by 30" screens provide room for more windows.... except the larger raster area of 30" monitors reduced speed even more, again more memory to move, more buffers to hold, overlapping windows make it slower still. What is so special about 3D graphics: 3D acceleration uses a depth buffer and matrix operations. The GPU's vertex engine (or uniform stream processor in the latest cards) are exceptionally good at handling matrix calls, about 50 times faster than the same matrix call on the CPU, and approximately 100 times faster than a memory move on a near full-screen window. The 3D desktop "can be" handled much faster on a 3D graphics card than using memory block moves and hiding buffers under 2D acceleration. Where 2D accelerated "move" of a window requires a memory move of a section of memory equivalent to the size of the window, a 3D "move" re
One quibble - while linux does have various projects attempting this, none, to the best of my knowledge are ready for widespread, everyday use, i.e. they are not as mature and stable as OS X and Aero. At least one of the issues that causes problems is the requirement of "tainted" drivers, drivers that are not compliant with the GPL, and therefore many distro's don't include them by default, meaning you don't get the best performance out of your graphics card. Because of this, IMHO, idiotic and childish decision people have to to manually upgrade to nvidia or ATI drivers after they install a distro, which is a complete waste of time.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Well... for now is just cute... In fact it's just cutter than XP. How many of you would like to have something like these functionalities? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsxaMyFV2Y&NR=1 what's the use of Aero?! I only see some use on the taskbar preview and the alt+tab preview. The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working? I can say that I NEVER use it... really... NEVER! and I even have a mouse with a shortcut button for it. Is it impossible for 3rd party to create new/useful desktop enhancements on Vista? Thanks! Alex
ok... i might have to switch my ubuntu server to my main workstaion.... so I to, can have snow on top of my wall paper :) I don't think linux would handle 4 monitors well though...
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Well... for now is just cute... In fact it's just cutter than XP. How many of you would like to have something like these functionalities? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsxaMyFV2Y&NR=1 what's the use of Aero?! I only see some use on the taskbar preview and the alt+tab preview. The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working? I can say that I NEVER use it... really... NEVER! and I even have a mouse with a shortcut button for it. Is it impossible for 3rd party to create new/useful desktop enhancements on Vista? Thanks! Alex
When Microsoft removes it from Vista.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
AlexCode wrote:
what's the use of Aero?!
:sigh: I should just write this all down, store it in a document and copy and paste the reply since this question comes up so often now. First off, separate your perceptions of the design from the background science and implimentation. I know it is difficult since everyone is in the "I hate pretty pictures bit" just as they were with the new desktop under XP. WHAT Aero is: 3D acceleration of an operating system desktop. This was not the first, Mac and Linux each have their own equivalent. Actual implimentation of the design differs slightly to greatly in some areas. WHY Aero and other 3D desktops exist: Your graphics card has grown in leaps and bounds, from the first 3D accelerated graphics card to now the growth has been at 1.5 times that of a CPU (not the speed, but the actual growth rate of the speed). This means that 3D accelerators have been increasing in speed significantly faster than CPUs. Windows uses a dual mode graphics system for pre-Aero desktops. Windows acceleration has been strictly 2D operations memory moves, memory buffers, extended desktop reference frame buffers, etc. This is actually the hardest way to draw an image. Why can I draw 30,000 sq km of textured terrain at 4m resolution 60 times a second and windows XP significantly reduces speed with only 20 windows on the desktop? Of course the usual response is: close down so many windows, Windows hates to have windows open? :confused: hmmmm... interesting.... Well, I don't know about you, but when I am debugging I generally have more application windows open, plus significantly larger desktops provided by 30" screens provide room for more windows.... except the larger raster area of 30" monitors reduced speed even more, again more memory to move, more buffers to hold, overlapping windows make it slower still. What is so special about 3D graphics: 3D acceleration uses a depth buffer and matrix operations. The GPU's vertex engine (or uniform stream processor in the latest cards) are exceptionally good at handling matrix calls, about 50 times faster than the same matrix call on the CPU, and approximately 100 times faster than a memory move on a near full-screen window. The 3D desktop "can be" handled much faster on a 3D graphics card than using memory block moves and hiding buffers under 2D acceleration. Where 2D accelerated "move" of a window requires a memory move of a section of memory equivalent to the size of the window, a 3D "move" re
Great explanation... Thanks! That really answers the "what's the use of Aero" question. Now as you said, it could show up exactly as XP but working differently on the back, more efficiently. But they (M$) wanted it also to be different on the front-end... of course... makes sense! And the question is... Why isn't it useful?! :(( We got fancy buttons, windows drop-shadows and opened windows previews... that's all folks! I want to think that this one more unfinished feature included in a rush just because it just couldn't miss the scene... Should we expect new on this on the upcoming SP1? :confused:
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When Microsoft removes it from Vista.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
ok... i might have to switch my ubuntu server to my main workstaion.... so I to, can have snow on top of my wall paper :) I don't think linux would handle 4 monitors well though...
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Aero is a joke. Windows-Tab is useless. The transparent window borders makes it difficult to discern the active windows from other windows. etc. etc. Combined with Vista's other stupidities: file copying, side panel, UACP, etc. etc. one wonders what Microsoft were thinking. If it wasn't to much of a hassle I'd go back to XP. But when KDE 4 is out I'll consider switching to Linux.
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, `Who is destroying the world?' You are."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn RandRohde wrote:
But when KDE 4 is out I'll consider switching to Linux.
My new PC is going to be turning up just before the release date for KDE4, I've had beta 2 running since release date and not experienced too many problems, so I think i'll install "Gutsy Gibbon" with the KDE beta at that point and upgrade to the final version on its release. I'm looking forward to the next release of compiz-fusion though, promises much eyecandy to show off my new vid card; that said I'll then turn all the funky features off and go back to a simple GUI.
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AlexCode wrote:
what's the use of Aero?!
:sigh: I should just write this all down, store it in a document and copy and paste the reply since this question comes up so often now. First off, separate your perceptions of the design from the background science and implimentation. I know it is difficult since everyone is in the "I hate pretty pictures bit" just as they were with the new desktop under XP. WHAT Aero is: 3D acceleration of an operating system desktop. This was not the first, Mac and Linux each have their own equivalent. Actual implimentation of the design differs slightly to greatly in some areas. WHY Aero and other 3D desktops exist: Your graphics card has grown in leaps and bounds, from the first 3D accelerated graphics card to now the growth has been at 1.5 times that of a CPU (not the speed, but the actual growth rate of the speed). This means that 3D accelerators have been increasing in speed significantly faster than CPUs. Windows uses a dual mode graphics system for pre-Aero desktops. Windows acceleration has been strictly 2D operations memory moves, memory buffers, extended desktop reference frame buffers, etc. This is actually the hardest way to draw an image. Why can I draw 30,000 sq km of textured terrain at 4m resolution 60 times a second and windows XP significantly reduces speed with only 20 windows on the desktop? Of course the usual response is: close down so many windows, Windows hates to have windows open? :confused: hmmmm... interesting.... Well, I don't know about you, but when I am debugging I generally have more application windows open, plus significantly larger desktops provided by 30" screens provide room for more windows.... except the larger raster area of 30" monitors reduced speed even more, again more memory to move, more buffers to hold, overlapping windows make it slower still. What is so special about 3D graphics: 3D acceleration uses a depth buffer and matrix operations. The GPU's vertex engine (or uniform stream processor in the latest cards) are exceptionally good at handling matrix calls, about 50 times faster than the same matrix call on the CPU, and approximately 100 times faster than a memory move on a near full-screen window. The 3D desktop "can be" handled much faster on a 3D graphics card than using memory block moves and hiding buffers under 2D acceleration. Where 2D accelerated "move" of a window requires a memory move of a section of memory equivalent to the size of the window, a 3D "move" re
What doesn't make sense to me is that they haven't just produced a simple 2D effect for the windows. 2D is a subset of 3D so it should be a simple task to provide a 2D desktop using 3D hardware while it is obviously a highly intensive task to provide 3D using 2D hardware. Just because they have the ability to use 3D acceleration why did they feel the need to use frosted glass effects? My video card at work is capable of many 3D effects and has an amount of 3D acceleration but is totally incapable of producing the kind of effects that AERO demands. It seems that MS in their wisdom have made a good and sensible decision and then ruined their hard work by going so totally over the top with the effects they have used. Compiz-fusion on Linux allows independent selection of each feature and includes a theme manager to provide "skinning" of the OS for those who want to control their dektop experience; It runs perfectly well on my 4 year old dell laptop, albeit with many features turned off. I suspect that the implementation of AERO was more motivated by the desire to get a really fancy looking screenshot in PC format magazine than any sound design principles but I fully agree that a 3D accelerated environment is the way to go. Russell
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Well... for now is just cute... In fact it's just cutter than XP. How many of you would like to have something like these functionalities? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsxaMyFV2Y&NR=1 what's the use of Aero?! I only see some use on the taskbar preview and the alt+tab preview. The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working? I can say that I NEVER use it... really... NEVER! and I even have a mouse with a shortcut button for it. Is it impossible for 3rd party to create new/useful desktop enhancements on Vista? Thanks! Alex
They already are : Honda Shadow Aero[^] :cool:
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One quibble - while linux does have various projects attempting this, none, to the best of my knowledge are ready for widespread, everyday use, i.e. they are not as mature and stable as OS X and Aero. At least one of the issues that causes problems is the requirement of "tainted" drivers, drivers that are not compliant with the GPL, and therefore many distro's don't include them by default, meaning you don't get the best performance out of your graphics card. Because of this, IMHO, idiotic and childish decision people have to to manually upgrade to nvidia or ATI drivers after they install a distro, which is a complete waste of time.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
Because of this, IMHO, idiotic and childish decision people have to to manually upgrade to nvidia or ATI drivers after they install a distro, which is a complete waste of time.
Used Vista lately? None of the machines i've installed it on can do the Aero stuff on a base install - and only one out of three has been able to at all so far, even when upgraded to the latest-and-greatest OEM drivers. Heck, using OS-blessed video drivers has been a bad idea (performance-wise, if nothing else) for as long as i can recall; i suspect it's just a function of how video hardware is developed and released.
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Because of this, IMHO, idiotic and childish decision people have to to manually upgrade to nvidia or ATI drivers after they install a distro, which is a complete waste of time.
Used Vista lately? None of the machines i've installed it on can do the Aero stuff on a base install - and only one out of three has been able to at all so far, even when upgraded to the latest-and-greatest OEM drivers. Heck, using OS-blessed video drivers has been a bad idea (performance-wise, if nothing else) for as long as i can recall; i suspect it's just a function of how video hardware is developed and released.
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
Well I tried Vista Ultimate on my machine at home, and I don't remember having to install anything special video driver wise. But maybe I have a good enough graphics card? It's an nvidia with 256 MB of VRAM.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Well... for now is just cute... In fact it's just cutter than XP. How many of you would like to have something like these functionalities? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsxaMyFV2Y&NR=1 what's the use of Aero?! I only see some use on the taskbar preview and the alt+tab preview. The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working? I can say that I NEVER use it... really... NEVER! and I even have a mouse with a shortcut button for it. Is it impossible for 3rd party to create new/useful desktop enhancements on Vista? Thanks! Alex
AlexCode wrote:
The Windows+Tab is just nice to see but how many times do you actually use it while you're working?
Never and I've never actually got to use it only because my keyboard doesn't seem to support it and I'm not giving up my keyboard for any feature short of a miraculous one.
Modo vincis, modo vinceris.
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Well I tried Vista Ultimate on my machine at home, and I don't remember having to install anything special video driver wise. But maybe I have a good enough graphics card? It's an nvidia with 256 MB of VRAM.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
It's an nvidia with 256 MB of VRAM.
Better than what i'm using then. The best i've tried so far is a NVidia notebook thing - so shared RAM.
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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What doesn't make sense to me is that they haven't just produced a simple 2D effect for the windows. 2D is a subset of 3D so it should be a simple task to provide a 2D desktop using 3D hardware while it is obviously a highly intensive task to provide 3D using 2D hardware. Just because they have the ability to use 3D acceleration why did they feel the need to use frosted glass effects? My video card at work is capable of many 3D effects and has an amount of 3D acceleration but is totally incapable of producing the kind of effects that AERO demands. It seems that MS in their wisdom have made a good and sensible decision and then ruined their hard work by going so totally over the top with the effects they have used. Compiz-fusion on Linux allows independent selection of each feature and includes a theme manager to provide "skinning" of the OS for those who want to control their dektop experience; It runs perfectly well on my 4 year old dell laptop, albeit with many features turned off. I suspect that the implementation of AERO was more motivated by the desire to get a really fancy looking screenshot in PC format magazine than any sound design principles but I fully agree that a 3D accelerated environment is the way to go. Russell
Russell Jones wrote:
What doesn't make sense to me is that they haven't just produced a simple 2D effect for the windows. 2D is a subset of 3D so it should be a simple task to provide a 2D desktop using 3D hardware while it is obviously a highly intensive task to provide 3D using 2D hardware. Just because they have the ability to use 3D acceleration why did they feel the need to use frosted glass effects?
hehehe, you obviously have never been on a committe for anything. ;) Lets say the programming team comes up with a new invention, 3D accelerated desktop (forget someone else did so first), that saves a good 60-80% of the time rendering the desktop. What happens? do you accelerate it and send it out exactly the same as before but faster? Nawwwww.... the customer was accustomed to the speed before, so lets add this, add that, that would be cool, yeah, I like that, hey can you do this, how about that? Pretty soon you have a camel where you wanted a horse. :) Aero is the camel where the horse should be. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
