Kind of interesting 3d interface and mouse
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This is all courtesy of the latest opinion poll that has a link to the " Proggy Clean" programmers font. http://www.tactile3d.com/[^] http://www.3dconnexion.com[^] What I really want to know is how much longer till we can have the CAD program that Tony Stark uses to build his suit in "Iron Man"? :)
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I've got the SpaceNavigator and, although kinda cool, it needs a fair amount of driver work before it replaces my mouse. It is more intuitive (and a lot less intimidating) than a joystick for my clients and the public though, which is what I use it for. Cheers, Drew.
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Recomended Hardware: IBM BlueGene/L. The one with 65536 Processors. :doh:
Steve
Steve Mayfield wrote:
Recomended Hardware: IBM BlueGene/L. The one with 65536 Processors. :doh:
for the connexion UI or the stark one?
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Given that you work in this area full time, what is the estimate for an interface that works like that? Are we really all that far off?
which one? the one from Iron man? I haven't seen the movie yet. my step son went with his father and my wife does not want to go, so I am out until dvd. As far as the Minority report, the problem is use. I have written many interesting interfaces, and I have seen many interfaces at conventions that are innovative. But the problem is are they really more efficient? Do they cause more problems than they fix? The minority report interface for example. Remember the mistake when he reached for coffee? These are common enough annoyances they can kill an innovative interface. I could write the minority report one tomorrow, but the gloves are still too bulky for me to consider useful, and isolation of interruption events are a must. I work with the end users that generally think they know more than they do, the most dangerous kind of users. Isolation of the user is a must too. keeping them doing what they need to. Since I am not a mechanical/electrical engineer, I can only give you a rough estimate on when the gloves from minority report make it. When I see iron man I will let you know the other if you remind me. :)
No the one in Iron Man is different, and seems a little more practical. The system has both a traditional multi monitor disply with a fairly traditional 3D modeling/rendering UI on it. It also has a table which is linked to this. The table appears to show a 3D hologram, in a colored wire frame view, that can be interacted with via your hands. He uses gestures to move parts of the model, deletes sections (there's a bit where he "selects" a section of the suit and literally "throws" it in the garbage), and so forth. There's another section where he has a model of the forearm piece of the suit, it's at 1:1 scale and we see him place his arm in the wireframe and move it about. The movie appears to keep his movements tied to the physical space that the table occupies. So, given something like that, how fanciful is it?
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I've got the SpaceNavigator and, although kinda cool, it needs a fair amount of driver work before it replaces my mouse. It is more intuitive (and a lot less intimidating) than a joystick for my clients and the public though, which is what I use it for. Cheers, Drew.
Do you use it for gaming? Or as an interface for 3D CAD visualization?
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Hmm, think these guys Stark Industries[^] are working on a Mk II suit in their spare time? :)
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Hmm, think these guys Stark Industries[^] are working on a Mk II suit in their spare time?
If so, I just want to know: 1. Does it come in 2XL Tall? 2. Will the rocket units burn the kind of ethanol I can make from lawn clippings?(cheaper than what NASA uses) 3. How fast can I get to work? (can I sleep in?) Just trying to plan out my day. . . . :laugh:
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. Rick Cook
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No the one in Iron Man is different, and seems a little more practical. The system has both a traditional multi monitor disply with a fairly traditional 3D modeling/rendering UI on it. It also has a table which is linked to this. The table appears to show a 3D hologram, in a colored wire frame view, that can be interacted with via your hands. He uses gestures to move parts of the model, deletes sections (there's a bit where he "selects" a section of the suit and literally "throws" it in the garbage), and so forth. There's another section where he has a model of the forearm piece of the suit, it's at 1:1 scale and we see him place his arm in the wireframe and move it about. The movie appears to keep his movements tied to the physical space that the table occupies. So, given something like that, how fanciful is it?
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Jim Crafton wrote:
So, given something like that, how fanciful is it?
I'd say we are still at least 20 years away from real 3D. Sure you can go to siggraph and you can see 3D projected without glasses overhead, but then you have to go to the electrostatic vapor curtain to interact with 3D and it looks horrible, but reacts well, or go 2D on the drawing wall, or music floor. All the pieces are here, but they don't go together because of size and/or interfacing methods. For instance the electrostatic curtain, has to be used with a projected water vapor screen and projecting an image on water vapor produces cute, but laughable interface images. Definiately not ready for prime-time. Have you ever seen the 3D CAD haptic pens? http://www.sensable.com/documents/images/PhantomDesktop_Large.jpg[^] these are force-feedback pens allowing you to hire a clay sculptor to do CAD. An artist can litterally shape parts by feel. You can even search for flaws in a piece by tracing the feel with a micro scan of a piece. Though the latter is easier done by computer analysis. These are probably the most useful of the 3D haptic technologies today, the rest are so far dreams, or not-ready-for-prime-time. I still want a brain interface. :) I want to do a brain dump into a computer of what I want. heck with haptics. :) 3D is here, useful 3D projection is still 20 years away at least. Again, this is primarily an engineering problem, not a programming problem. 3D programming is getting better, but engineering is still behind. Although this brings up another issue. Hardware and software folks rarely intermingle. Hardware folks think that interfacing is a programming problem, and programming folks think that the physical input device is an engineering problem. Both are true, but it protects the rift between us. personally I think we need a good husband/wife team that work well together in engineering/artist/programming and you could shave up to 10 years off that.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
So, given something like that, how fanciful is it?
I'd say we are still at least 20 years away from real 3D. Sure you can go to siggraph and you can see 3D projected without glasses overhead, but then you have to go to the electrostatic vapor curtain to interact with 3D and it looks horrible, but reacts well, or go 2D on the drawing wall, or music floor. All the pieces are here, but they don't go together because of size and/or interfacing methods. For instance the electrostatic curtain, has to be used with a projected water vapor screen and projecting an image on water vapor produces cute, but laughable interface images. Definiately not ready for prime-time. Have you ever seen the 3D CAD haptic pens? http://www.sensable.com/documents/images/PhantomDesktop_Large.jpg[^] these are force-feedback pens allowing you to hire a clay sculptor to do CAD. An artist can litterally shape parts by feel. You can even search for flaws in a piece by tracing the feel with a micro scan of a piece. Though the latter is easier done by computer analysis. These are probably the most useful of the 3D haptic technologies today, the rest are so far dreams, or not-ready-for-prime-time. I still want a brain interface. :) I want to do a brain dump into a computer of what I want. heck with haptics. :) 3D is here, useful 3D projection is still 20 years away at least. Again, this is primarily an engineering problem, not a programming problem. 3D programming is getting better, but engineering is still behind. Although this brings up another issue. Hardware and software folks rarely intermingle. Hardware folks think that interfacing is a programming problem, and programming folks think that the physical input device is an engineering problem. Both are true, but it protects the rift between us. personally I think we need a good husband/wife team that work well together in engineering/artist/programming and you could shave up to 10 years off that.
El Corazon wrote:
I'd say we are still at least 20 years away from real 3D
20 years? Seriously? That seems like an awfully long time. Boo! Hiss! Maybe the good folks at Apple have something in mind here: http://www.macrumors.com/2008/03/20/apple-researching-3d-stereoscopic-displays/[^]
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El Corazon wrote:
I'd say we are still at least 20 years away from real 3D
20 years? Seriously? That seems like an awfully long time. Boo! Hiss! Maybe the good folks at Apple have something in mind here: http://www.macrumors.com/2008/03/20/apple-researching-3d-stereoscopic-displays/[^]
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Jim Crafton wrote:
20 years? Seriously? That seems like an awfully long time. Boo! Hiss!
I know, you see it and think it is here. Siggraph is coming up soon, catch some of the photos or movies of the devices there. Most of these take about 5 years to come to market, and another 5 to 15 years to be useful. Some never do become useful. 3D is here, you can touch it, you can feel it, you can see it, but never together.... Its that combination we are waiting for. Either for some innovative genius to break the mold, and merge the interface folks like me who can barely put together a computer, and the hardware folks who can't be trusted to upgrade their computer.
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Do you use it for gaming? Or as an interface for 3D CAD visualization?
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I've got the SpaceNavigator and, although kinda cool, it needs a fair amount of driver work before it replaces my mouse. It is more intuitive (and a lot less intimidating) than a joystick for my clients and the public though, which is what I use it for. Cheers, Drew.
Drew Stainton wrote:
It is more intuitive (and a lot less intimidating) than a joystick for my clients and the public though
Ironically, I have the opposite problem. I got one of the magellens when they came out. My boss and our clients won't touch it because it is more intimidating to move in all directions. I am the only one in site that can use a full 6dof device and do so regularly. Two of our customers prefer the $1500-$3500 hardened joysticks, and most of our customers just take a regular logitech wingman extreme. I would like the new space pilot, if I ever get a 3D project fully outside of work with the budget, that is on my list for home. At work, I may try to talk them into getting another to try. I still feel it is the most intuitive, you move the disk in the direction you want to move, turn in the direction you want to turn, but complete freedom is not something the military mind generally enjoys. :)
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This is all courtesy of the latest opinion poll that has a link to the " Proggy Clean" programmers font. http://www.tactile3d.com/[^] http://www.3dconnexion.com[^] What I really want to know is how much longer till we can have the CAD program that Tony Stark uses to build his suit in "Iron Man"? :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
I'm sorry, but that is pretty pointless. Why would I want to slow down my file access with a ridiculously slow, non-intuitive 3D interface. As soon as they make it holographic, we'll talk. Until then, meh.
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Drew Stainton wrote:
It is more intuitive (and a lot less intimidating) than a joystick for my clients and the public though
Ironically, I have the opposite problem. I got one of the magellens when they came out. My boss and our clients won't touch it because it is more intimidating to move in all directions. I am the only one in site that can use a full 6dof device and do so regularly. Two of our customers prefer the $1500-$3500 hardened joysticks, and most of our customers just take a regular logitech wingman extreme. I would like the new space pilot, if I ever get a 3D project fully outside of work with the budget, that is on my list for home. At work, I may try to talk them into getting another to try. I still feel it is the most intuitive, you move the disk in the direction you want to move, turn in the direction you want to turn, but complete freedom is not something the military mind generally enjoys. :)
Interesting. I guess it depends on the clientelle. The first demo I did I couldn't get anyone to take the joystick and 'go for a spin'. I think it's just the look of the thing - too many buttons (I believe it was a wingman extreme, actually!). The SpaceNavigator looks simple and is so different that I find people will pick it up just to see what it is. When they do, they realize they're controlling the environment and it just kind of goes from there. Cheers, Drew.
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Interesting. I guess it depends on the clientelle. The first demo I did I couldn't get anyone to take the joystick and 'go for a spin'. I think it's just the look of the thing - too many buttons (I believe it was a wingman extreme, actually!). The SpaceNavigator looks simple and is so different that I find people will pick it up just to see what it is. When they do, they realize they're controlling the environment and it just kind of goes from there. Cheers, Drew.
Drew Stainton wrote:
The SpaceNavigator looks simple and is so different that I find people will pick it up just to see what it is. When they do, they realize they're controlling the environment and it just kind of goes from there.
My folks want to fly-through the environment, they are thinking air-craft or other 2D motion. I don't think I have anyone on my team, or in my clientele that can really think 6dof. nor do they want to. They don't want to turn on a dime, they may want to hover, but they don't think of up and down, left and right, they still only think forward, backward and turn left, turn right, pitch up, pitch down. They still think in 2D. It is one of my primary speeches on 3D. I get arguments all the time, that aircraft are 3D, but they are not. After I explain that the vehicle moves on a moving 2D plane within a 3D environment they frown a bit, but concede. They want aircraft movement, not 3D movement. Some don't even like to leave the ground in 3D, they leave the room as soon as I start moving. Good thing they don't see my 6dof controls from the office. :) I love the freedom of movement.
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Drew Stainton wrote:
The SpaceNavigator looks simple and is so different that I find people will pick it up just to see what it is. When they do, they realize they're controlling the environment and it just kind of goes from there.
My folks want to fly-through the environment, they are thinking air-craft or other 2D motion. I don't think I have anyone on my team, or in my clientele that can really think 6dof. nor do they want to. They don't want to turn on a dime, they may want to hover, but they don't think of up and down, left and right, they still only think forward, backward and turn left, turn right, pitch up, pitch down. They still think in 2D. It is one of my primary speeches on 3D. I get arguments all the time, that aircraft are 3D, but they are not. After I explain that the vehicle moves on a moving 2D plane within a 3D environment they frown a bit, but concede. They want aircraft movement, not 3D movement. Some don't even like to leave the ground in 3D, they leave the room as soon as I start moving. Good thing they don't see my 6dof controls from the office. :) I love the freedom of movement.
El Corazon wrote:
I love the freedom of movement.
Me too. I think in my case, the users find out by accident about the up/down movement. It just happens when they grab the SpaceNavigator to pick it up (they go zipping straight up!). I have the sensitivity in that direction turned way down. I've also learned to turn off yaw roll (see, it's even confusing me!) as it just gets confusing for everyone involved. Cheers, Drew.
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This is all courtesy of the latest opinion poll that has a link to the " Proggy Clean" programmers font. http://www.tactile3d.com/[^] http://www.3dconnexion.com[^] What I really want to know is how much longer till we can have the CAD program that Tony Stark uses to build his suit in "Iron Man"? :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
I think such interfaces are not very practical from ergonomic point of view. Imagine keeping your hands stretched out in air for 8-10 hours a day building CAD models!! -Saurabh
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El Corazon wrote:
I love the freedom of movement.
Me too. I think in my case, the users find out by accident about the up/down movement. It just happens when they grab the SpaceNavigator to pick it up (they go zipping straight up!). I have the sensitivity in that direction turned way down. I've also learned to turn off yaw roll (see, it's even confusing me!) as it just gets confusing for everyone involved. Cheers, Drew.
Drew Stainton wrote:
I've also learned to turn off yaw roll (see, it's even confusing me!) as it just gets confusing for everyone involved.
I've had roll turned off since 1993. :) I made one of our customers sick because I was doing stunt flying in 3D. Hey its VR, it was meant to defy gravity!
