Are the Russians justified in attacking Georgia?
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Seems like your memory fails you
Hey, speaking of memory - why is it when you claimed that Russia asked for UN intervention a whole day before she invaded, and I proved that she had started her transit of the Ural Mountains with tanks at roughly the same time as the Russian Ambassador arrived at the UN demanding a meeting of the security council at 11:00 p.m. you decided you had nothing else to say. As to what happened during the invasion of Iraq, you are either lying, stupid, or uneducated. Pick two.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
As far as Ossetian kids, yes, they are greeting Russians.
If I were Ossetian, I would, too. Unfortunately for the Georgian kids getting run over by tanks and the women being raped, the Russians are running riot in Georgia.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
you decided you had nothing else to say.
Open your eyes: here was my reply.[^]
Regards, Nikolay
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Oakman wrote:
However that does not justify Russia's violation of the national sovereignty of Georgia, the destruction of its military and civilian infrastructure and the creation of ovr 100,000 Georgian refugees.
Then similarly the US were not justified to violate the national sovereignty of Aghanistan, the destruction of its military infrastructure and the creation of hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees. Georgia attacked russian civilians and soldiers. Destroying the military infrastructure is logical, as did NATO when it confronted the Serbs in Bosnia or Kosovo, as did the international coalition when it striked Irak after it invaded Koweit.
Oakman wrote:
allow the Germans in Alsace Lorraine self-determination
Alsace has a germanic culture but Alsatians are no Germans. Lorraine is quite not germanic at all, on contrary people there (at least the older ones) still distrust Germany, only a very few minority still speak Frankish. Alsatians can speak their language at home, I've got a friend of mine from there whose mother doesn't even speak French. Alsace never asked for self-determination, so your example is not the good one. Anyway, want the Bretons, the Basque or the Corsicans to be independent, I'm all in favor for a referendum for self determination. I won't take a gun to force them to stay French, I won't shell the towns there, I won't bomb their women and children to oblige them to shut up.
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy!
Ka?l wrote:
Then similarly the US were not justified to violate the national sovereignty of Aghanistan, the destruction of its military infrastructure and the creation of hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees.
9/11. And weeks of warning the Taliban that either they turned Osama over or we were coming in to find him. I don't exactly recall the Georgian attack on Moscow. Do you? I don't exactly remember the weeks of warnings being delivered by Russia - DO YOU???
Ka?l wrote:
Alsace never asked for self-determination, so your example is not the good one.
Alsace Lorraine was an independent country before WWII and claimed by the French as war reparations afterward. The speaking of Frankish (a variant of German) is forbidden by law. The Germans in Alsace have wanted to reunite with Germany since the '50's.
Ka?l wrote:
I won't bomb their women and children to oblige them to shut up.
Maybe your Russian friends will do it for you.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Diego Moita wrote:
I mean in the western side of the world (the Americas) different people can get along very well
Was there no nationalistic war ever in South America?
Diego Moita wrote:
I think the "Old World" of Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia and Middle East has a lot to learn from us in the "New World", from Canada to Argentina.
Exterminating local populations before creating new societies could be a solution, but it would be a little bit too radical.
Where do you expect us to go when the bombs fall? Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
Exterminating local populations before creating new societies could be a solution, but it would be a little bit too radical
Europe has a tradition of doing this that predates the Roman Empire. Only an idiot would think that the national boundaries or the ethnic distributions of Europe have remained the same for all time.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
I'm not asking you here whether on not NATO air-strike was authorised by the UN)
Of course it wasn't. The stupidest thing the US ever did was to grant Russia a permanent seat on the Security Council. It has meant that the UN has been a waste of time and money ever since. By the way, was the Russian invasion authorised by anyone?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The war between Serbia and NATO ended in 1999
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The war between Georgions and Ossetians ended in 1992
Oh wait - not the war between the Russians and the Georgians? There was no previous war as there was with NATO?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
how fast would react NATO in this case? Would it wait another thirteen months to start figthing Serbs?
I have no idea. I am pretty sure that they wouldn't run riot through all of Serbia killing kids, raping women, taking prisoners and deliberately destroying infrastructure.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
The stupidest thing the US ever did was to grant Russia a permanent seat on the Security Council.
Was it the US who granted Russia a seat there? That's something new for me. LOL. :)
Oakman wrote:
Oh wait - not the war between the Russians and the Georgians? There was no previous war as there was with NATO?
There was no war between Russia and Georgia in 1992.
Oakman wrote:
killing kids, raping women, taking prisoners and deliberately destroying infrastructure.
Oh, those evil Russians! What a funny man you are!
Regards, Nikolay
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Ka?l wrote:
Then similarly the US were not justified to violate the national sovereignty of Aghanistan, the destruction of its military infrastructure and the creation of hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees.
9/11. And weeks of warning the Taliban that either they turned Osama over or we were coming in to find him. I don't exactly recall the Georgian attack on Moscow. Do you? I don't exactly remember the weeks of warnings being delivered by Russia - DO YOU???
Ka?l wrote:
Alsace never asked for self-determination, so your example is not the good one.
Alsace Lorraine was an independent country before WWII and claimed by the French as war reparations afterward. The speaking of Frankish (a variant of German) is forbidden by law. The Germans in Alsace have wanted to reunite with Germany since the '50's.
Ka?l wrote:
I won't bomb their women and children to oblige them to shut up.
Maybe your Russian friends will do it for you.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I don't exactly recall the Georgian attack on Moscow.
Not on Moskow, but on Russian citizens, and plenty of them.
Oakman wrote:
DO YOU???
Oakman wrote:
Alsace Lorraine was an independent country before WWII
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Ok, so let's go to the basics, History 101: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Loraine[^]
Oakman wrote:
The speaking of Frankish (a variant of German) is forbidden by law
No, it is not and never was. There's even a frankish festival organized in Sarreguemines each year (http://mirreddeplatt.sarreguemines.fr/[^]), festival co-sponsored by the French culture ministry.
Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Oakman wrote:
you decided you had nothing else to say.
Open your eyes: here was my reply.[^]
Regards, Nikolay
Sorry. For some reason that reply never hit my mailbox. I apologise. On the other hand, your answers were non-responsive and disingenuous. FYI. 1. The Security Meeting started around 1:30, not 11:00. 11:00 is when your Ambassador got out of a taxi. Amazingly enough the ambassadors of the other nations were not standing at attention awaiting his arrival. 2. The Security Council did not adjourn at 3:00, it took a break agreeing to continue the discussion later - Your Ambassador never indicated that Russian tanks were about to invade or that there was some sort of deadline being crossed. Instead he agreed to the break. 3. Russian tanks cannot cross the Urals in two hours. The T90-S has a flat paved-surface top speed of about 60kph. In mountainous terrain it can't do better than half that.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
The stupidest thing the US ever did was to grant Russia a permanent seat on the Security Council.
Was it the US who granted Russia a seat there? That's something new for me. LOL. :)
Oakman wrote:
Oh wait - not the war between the Russians and the Georgians? There was no previous war as there was with NATO?
There was no war between Russia and Georgia in 1992.
Oakman wrote:
killing kids, raping women, taking prisoners and deliberately destroying infrastructure.
Oh, those evil Russians! What a funny man you are!
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
That's something new for me.
Good then you learned something.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
There was no war between Russia and Georgia in 1992.
Then your comparison is false. Q.E.D.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
What a funny man you are
Another one who is amused by death. I guess I am at a disadvantage. Having been in combat, I don't find it funny.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
I don't exactly recall the Georgian attack on Moscow.
Not on Moskow, but on Russian citizens, and plenty of them.
Oakman wrote:
DO YOU???
Oakman wrote:
Alsace Lorraine was an independent country before WWII
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Ok, so let's go to the basics, History 101: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Loraine[^]
Oakman wrote:
The speaking of Frankish (a variant of German) is forbidden by law
No, it is not and never was. There's even a frankish festival organized in Sarreguemines each year (http://mirreddeplatt.sarreguemines.fr/[^]), festival co-sponsored by the French culture ministry.
Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
YES[^] and YES[^]
I checked your references carefully. I saw no signs that the Russians indicated that they would invade Georgia unless the Georgians did thus and so.
Ka?l wrote:
on Russian citizens
Ossetians who had been granted Russian citizenship in an attempt to give Russian claims on the area a veneer of respectability if not legality. And you have the effrontery to compare the mutual shelling of Ossetia by Georgians and Georgia by Ossetians to 9/11 - shame on you. I didn't think you could be that low.
Ka?l wrote:
History 101: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Loraine\[^\]
Don't you even read your own citations??? From the article you linked to: "On November 11, the Armistice with Germany (Compiègne) was signed, ending the war. The same day, the Diet of Strasbourg proclaimed an Independent Republic of Alsace-Lorraine. The Landtag parliament proclaimed itself the "National Council of Alsace-Lorraine" and the sole legal authority there. The next day, the National Council took over all functions of the Statthalter and of the Secretary of state, and proclaimed the sovereignty of Alsace-Lorraine. Eugen Ricklin and Jacques Peirotes were in charge.[citation needed] Yet, independence was short-lived as the French occupied Mülhausen on 17 November. They took Colmar and Metz on the next days, and, on 21 November, French troops arrived in Strasbourg." Boy, I bet that's embarrassing.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Ka?l wrote:
YES[^] and YES[^]
I checked your references carefully. I saw no signs that the Russians indicated that they would invade Georgia unless the Georgians did thus and so.
Ka?l wrote:
on Russian citizens
Ossetians who had been granted Russian citizenship in an attempt to give Russian claims on the area a veneer of respectability if not legality. And you have the effrontery to compare the mutual shelling of Ossetia by Georgians and Georgia by Ossetians to 9/11 - shame on you. I didn't think you could be that low.
Ka?l wrote:
History 101: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Loraine\[^\]
Don't you even read your own citations??? From the article you linked to: "On November 11, the Armistice with Germany (Compiègne) was signed, ending the war. The same day, the Diet of Strasbourg proclaimed an Independent Republic of Alsace-Lorraine. The Landtag parliament proclaimed itself the "National Council of Alsace-Lorraine" and the sole legal authority there. The next day, the National Council took over all functions of the Statthalter and of the Secretary of state, and proclaimed the sovereignty of Alsace-Lorraine. Eugen Ricklin and Jacques Peirotes were in charge.[citation needed] Yet, independence was short-lived as the French occupied Mülhausen on 17 November. They took Colmar and Metz on the next days, and, on 21 November, French troops arrived in Strasbourg." Boy, I bet that's embarrassing.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I saw no signs that the Russians indicated that they would invade Georgia unless the Georgians did thus and so.
And Georgia did. In April 2008, The high-ranking diplomat reiterated that Russia would do everything possible to protect the interests of Russian citizens living in Georgia's breakaway republics saying "In any case we will not leave our citizens in Abkhazia and South Ossetia in difficulty and this should be clearly understood." The official went further to say that Russia could use military force to protect its nationals if Tbilisi provoked military conflict in the breakaway republics. "We will do everything possible to avert a military conflict. But if it is provoked, we will have to use military force," he said. [^] Georgia was clearly warned that it would face Russian military forces if it engaged militarily against South Ossetia and/or Abkhazia. Russian reaction was no surprise.
Oakman wrote:
And you have the effrontery to compare the mutual shelling of Ossetia by Georgians and Georgia by Ossetians to 9/11 - shame on you. I didn't think you could be that low.
Oh, so ossetians civilian lives are not as worthy than western ones? If one is killed by a shell, it is less severe than if is killed by a crashing plane?
Oakman wrote:
Don't you even read your own citations???
First you make the confusion between 'Alsace Lorraine' and 'Alsace'. I doubt people of Lorraine would have felt linked with the Landrat of Strasbourg... who never declared independence by the way. The soviet republic of Alsace was declared by a bunch of Alsacian soldiers of the German Army. There was no election, no recognition by any country, and lasted 10 days (cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace_Soviet_Republic[^]). If I and some firends declare my town as being an independent state, does that make it an independent state?
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Oakman wrote:
I saw no signs that the Russians indicated that they would invade Georgia unless the Georgians did thus and so.
And Georgia did. In April 2008, The high-ranking diplomat reiterated that Russia would do everything possible to protect the interests of Russian citizens living in Georgia's breakaway republics saying "In any case we will not leave our citizens in Abkhazia and South Ossetia in difficulty and this should be clearly understood." The official went further to say that Russia could use military force to protect its nationals if Tbilisi provoked military conflict in the breakaway republics. "We will do everything possible to avert a military conflict. But if it is provoked, we will have to use military force," he said. [^] Georgia was clearly warned that it would face Russian military forces if it engaged militarily against South Ossetia and/or Abkhazia. Russian reaction was no surprise.
Oakman wrote:
And you have the effrontery to compare the mutual shelling of Ossetia by Georgians and Georgia by Ossetians to 9/11 - shame on you. I didn't think you could be that low.
Oh, so ossetians civilian lives are not as worthy than western ones? If one is killed by a shell, it is less severe than if is killed by a crashing plane?
Oakman wrote:
Don't you even read your own citations???
First you make the confusion between 'Alsace Lorraine' and 'Alsace'. I doubt people of Lorraine would have felt linked with the Landrat of Strasbourg... who never declared independence by the way. The soviet republic of Alsace was declared by a bunch of Alsacian soldiers of the German Army. There was no election, no recognition by any country, and lasted 10 days (cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace_Soviet_Republic[^]). If I and some firends declare my town as being an independent state, does that make it an independent state?
Ka?l wrote:
Georgia was clearly warned that it would face Russian military forces if it engaged militarily against South Ossetia and/or Abkhazia. Russian reaction was no surprise.
You seem to think that I approve of, or am ignorant of, Georgia's invasion of Ossetia or that I think that the Russians did not have some justification for coming to the aid of the break away provinces. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Russians had sufficient justification to throw back, or eliminate the Georgian Invaders. Had they gone a few miles over the border to insure that there were not additional forces poised to attack, it would have been hard to argue they should not have done so. Patently, this is not what happened. Instead Russia deliberately attacked one civilian target after another, killing non-combatants, or worse, allowing their Ossetian "volunteers" to indulge in attrocities. For the life of me, I cannot understand why you approve of this behavior. Is it just because Georgia had aligned itself with the West in general and the US in particular?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Attacking ad hominen won't make you right, it only shows you have no real argument. Georgia attacks russian civilians. Russia counterattacks, and then we are supposed to protect Georgia. Tailban's Afghanistan did attack american civilians. USA counterattacked, are we supposed to protect Taliban's Afghanistan?
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy!
Ka?l wrote:
Attacking ad hominen won't make you right,
You're right. I shouldn't have compared you. Normally I'm willing to go the extra mile in puzzling out what someone is trying to say - but it had been a long day. My sincere apologies.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
no one would expect the French to help anyone.
AFAIK more than 30,000 french troops are overseas: in Lebanon, in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Ivory coast and many other places. I know, it's hard for you to go over your racist prejudices, but I would suggest you to get a little more info before making such statements that could only lead one to consider you as an imbecile.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
Ka?l wrote:
AFAIK more than 30,000 french troops are overseas: in Lebanon, in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Ivory coast and many other places.
It's 34,000, actually - however the greatest single deployment (7,000) is to the Carribean where they hunt drug smugglers. Only about 13,000 are involved in peace-keeping missions. Of those, only 700 French military and police observers, staff or support personnel are deployed in the Ivory Coast, Lebanon, Kosovo, Haiti, Western Sahara, the Sinai, Israel, Democratic Republic of Congo, Georgia, Liberia, the border between Eritrea and Ethiopia, Burundi, Bosnia Herzegovina, and the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia. On the other hand, France was an immediate and whole-hearted supported of Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan - sending combat troops in beginning in Dec, 2001. By now its forces are up to 1,800 in Afghanistan and working under the NATO banner. Source
Ka?l wrote:
I would suggest you to get a little more info before making such statements
Always a good idea. :)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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oilFactotum wrote:
I never have.
Your lies have reached the level of Ilion. What a pathetic achievement. Why don't you just admit you were wrong to have done so, and suggest we both get on with our lives?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Your lies have reached the level of Ilion. What a pathetic achievement.
Where are the smiley icons? I can't see any under that login. Is there a post in the thread where this is?
I've heard more said about less.
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Ka?l wrote:
Georgia was clearly warned that it would face Russian military forces if it engaged militarily against South Ossetia and/or Abkhazia. Russian reaction was no surprise.
You seem to think that I approve of, or am ignorant of, Georgia's invasion of Ossetia or that I think that the Russians did not have some justification for coming to the aid of the break away provinces. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Russians had sufficient justification to throw back, or eliminate the Georgian Invaders. Had they gone a few miles over the border to insure that there were not additional forces poised to attack, it would have been hard to argue they should not have done so. Patently, this is not what happened. Instead Russia deliberately attacked one civilian target after another, killing non-combatants, or worse, allowing their Ossetian "volunteers" to indulge in attrocities. For the life of me, I cannot understand why you approve of this behavior. Is it just because Georgia had aligned itself with the West in general and the US in particular?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Had they gone a few miles over the border to insure that there were not additional forces poised to attack, it would have been hard to argue they should not have done so.
Did they take Tbilissi? No. Did they take Batumi, where the oil pipeline arrive? No. In fact, the Russians just gone a few miles over the border. Gori is approx. 30 km away from Tskhinvali.
Oakman wrote:
Instead Russia deliberately attacked one civilian target after another, killing non-combatants, or worse
Any independent source?
Oakman wrote:
allowing their Ossetian "volunteers" to indulge in attrocities
That's a different point. These 'auxiliary troops' seem clearly to be there to 'punish' georgian people, looting and stealing, maybe killing. I'm amazed the action of these troops are not emphatized more by medias
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Sorry. For some reason that reply never hit my mailbox. I apologise. On the other hand, your answers were non-responsive and disingenuous. FYI. 1. The Security Meeting started around 1:30, not 11:00. 11:00 is when your Ambassador got out of a taxi. Amazingly enough the ambassadors of the other nations were not standing at attention awaiting his arrival. 2. The Security Council did not adjourn at 3:00, it took a break agreeing to continue the discussion later - Your Ambassador never indicated that Russian tanks were about to invade or that there was some sort of deadline being crossed. Instead he agreed to the break. 3. Russian tanks cannot cross the Urals in two hours. The T90-S has a flat paved-surface top speed of about 60kph. In mountainous terrain it can't do better than half that.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
2. The Security Council did not adjourn at 3:00, it took a break agreeing to continue the discussion later - Your Ambassador never indicated that Russian tanks were about to invade or that there was some sort of deadline being crossed. Instead he agreed to the break.
Ok, let's check the UN web site.[^] And what I see there: The meeting began at 1:15 a.m. and adjourned at 2 a.m. And here is what the Russian delegate said at the end of the meeting: Taking the floor for a second time, the Russian delegate expressed dismay at the absence of political will among Council members and their inability to have sent a clear signal in response to the events. So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
Oakman wrote:
Russian tanks cannot cross the Urals in two hours. The T90-S has a flat paved-surface top speed of about 60kph. In mountainous terrain it can't do better than half that.
Well, you might to be surprised, but there are Russian tanks not only beyond the Urals. The tanks that have entered South Ossetia are tanks of 58th Army[^] which is always dislocated in Caucasus very close to South Ossetia. So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
Regards, Nikolay
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Oakman wrote:
2. The Security Council did not adjourn at 3:00, it took a break agreeing to continue the discussion later - Your Ambassador never indicated that Russian tanks were about to invade or that there was some sort of deadline being crossed. Instead he agreed to the break.
Ok, let's check the UN web site.[^] And what I see there: The meeting began at 1:15 a.m. and adjourned at 2 a.m. And here is what the Russian delegate said at the end of the meeting: Taking the floor for a second time, the Russian delegate expressed dismay at the absence of political will among Council members and their inability to have sent a clear signal in response to the events. So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
Oakman wrote:
Russian tanks cannot cross the Urals in two hours. The T90-S has a flat paved-surface top speed of about 60kph. In mountainous terrain it can't do better than half that.
Well, you might to be surprised, but there are Russian tanks not only beyond the Urals. The tanks that have entered South Ossetia are tanks of 58th Army[^] which is always dislocated in Caucasus very close to South Ossetia. So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
You claimed it started at 11:00, it actually started after I said it did at 1:15, therefore: you are. (But I did get the stop time wrong.)
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
the Russian delegate expressed dismay at the absence of political will among Council members and their inability to have sent a clear signal in response to the events.
By which time the orders to invade Georgia had already been given. Do you really think that we in the west cannot tell time?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The tanks that have entered South Ossetia are tanks of 58th Army[^] which is always dislocated in Caucasus very close to South Ossetia.
The original discussion was about the tanks that entered Georgia. The time frame I have been using always assumes that they entered Ossetia even earlier. Switching the discussion to entering Ossetia suggests strongly that you know how badly wrong your original claims were.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
You are.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
That's something new for me.
Good then you learned something.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
There was no war between Russia and Georgia in 1992.
Then your comparison is false. Q.E.D.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
What a funny man you are
Another one who is amused by death. I guess I am at a disadvantage. Having been in combat, I don't find it funny.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Then your comparison is false. Q.E.D.
There is a huge gap in your logic.
Oakman wrote:
Another one who is amused by death. I guess I am at a disadvantage.
Am I amused by death? Sorry, but it looks like you have not felt irony in my words.
Regards, Nikolay
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
You claimed it started at 11:00, it actually started after I said it did at 1:15, therefore: you are. (But I did get the stop time wrong.)
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
the Russian delegate expressed dismay at the absence of political will among Council members and their inability to have sent a clear signal in response to the events.
By which time the orders to invade Georgia had already been given. Do you really think that we in the west cannot tell time?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The tanks that have entered South Ossetia are tanks of 58th Army[^] which is always dislocated in Caucasus very close to South Ossetia.
The original discussion was about the tanks that entered Georgia. The time frame I have been using always assumes that they entered Ossetia even earlier. Switching the discussion to entering Ossetia suggests strongly that you know how badly wrong your original claims were.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
You are.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
You claimed it started at 11:00, it actually started after I said it did at 1:15, therefore: you are. (But I did get the stop time wrong.)
It's much more important when and how it ended, than when it started.
Oakman wrote:
By which time the orders to invade Georgia had already been given. Do you really think that we in the west cannot tell time?
Please do me a favor, tell me. Please also provide the source of your knowledge.
Oakman wrote:
The original discussion was about the tanks that entered Georgia. The time frame I have been using always assumes that they entered Ossetia even earlier. Switching the discussion to entering Ossetia suggests strongly that you know how badly wrong your original claims were.
So the tanks that entered Georgia were different from those that entered South Ossestia? LOL. Oh, man, I've got tired argueing with you commenting on the crap that you are posting here.
Regards, Nikolay
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Oakman wrote:
Had they gone a few miles over the border to insure that there were not additional forces poised to attack, it would have been hard to argue they should not have done so.
Did they take Tbilissi? No. Did they take Batumi, where the oil pipeline arrive? No. In fact, the Russians just gone a few miles over the border. Gori is approx. 30 km away from Tskhinvali.
Oakman wrote:
Instead Russia deliberately attacked one civilian target after another, killing non-combatants, or worse
Any independent source?
Oakman wrote:
allowing their Ossetian "volunteers" to indulge in attrocities
That's a different point. These 'auxiliary troops' seem clearly to be there to 'punish' georgian people, looting and stealing, maybe killing. I'm amazed the action of these troops are not emphatized more by medias
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
No. In fact, the Russians just gone a few miles over the border. Gori is approx. 30 km away from Tskhinvali
30 km (18.5 mi) is not a few miles, it is quite a few miles. However Gori is simply the town that was totally looted by the Russians, not its deepest penetration, they advanced beyond it to Kaspi, approximately 25 miles from the Georgian capital. They also occupied the seacoast town of Poti, approximately 200 km from Tskhinvali.
Ka?l wrote:
Any independent source?
Human Rights Watch: "The Russian military has since used indiscriminate force in attacks in South Ossetia and in the Gori district, and has apparently targeted convoys of civilians attempting to flee the conflict zones. HRW said that ongoing looting, arson attacks, and abductions by militia are terrorizing the civilian population, forcing them to flee their homes and preventing displaced people from returning home." On August 15, HRW said it "had collected evidence of Russian warplanes using cluster bombs; the international rights group urged Russia to stop using the weapons, which 107 nations have agreed to outlaw. On the same day, Russian General Nogovitsyn claimed: 'We never use cluster bombs. There is no need to do so.' During the final strikes, an air-to-ground missile smashed into the Gori hospital with deadly effect."
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
You claimed it started at 11:00, it actually started after I said it did at 1:15, therefore: you are. (But I did get the stop time wrong.)
It's much more important when and how it ended, than when it started.
Oakman wrote:
By which time the orders to invade Georgia had already been given. Do you really think that we in the west cannot tell time?
Please do me a favor, tell me. Please also provide the source of your knowledge.
Oakman wrote:
The original discussion was about the tanks that entered Georgia. The time frame I have been using always assumes that they entered Ossetia even earlier. Switching the discussion to entering Ossetia suggests strongly that you know how badly wrong your original claims were.
So the tanks that entered Georgia were different from those that entered South Ossestia? LOL. Oh, man, I've got tired argueing with you commenting on the crap that you are posting here.
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So the tanks that entered Georgia were different from those that entered South Ossetia? LOL.
If I type real slowly maybe you will understand. It took time, a number of hours in fact, for the tanks to cross Ossetia. Since they entered Georgia (not Ossetia) in the dark hours of the morning, they had to have left Russian territory many hours earlier. Before the Security Council had adjourned for the evening.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Oh, man, I've got tired argueing with you commenting on the crap that you are posting here.
I was once asked to tutor a young Russian immigrant who was not doing well in school. Like you, the immigrant became frustrated whenever things did not go his way and he would announce that he considered the study of math/history/geography to be tiresome and crap. Although I got him through his first year of Highschool, I heard later that he'd dropped out. Too bad, but I guess if you don't want to learn, you won't.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface