Are the Russians justified in attacking Georgia?
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Attacking ad hominen won't make you right, it only shows you have no real argument. Georgia attacks russian civilians. Russia counterattacks, and then we are supposed to protect Georgia. Tailban's Afghanistan did attack american civilians. USA counterattacked, are we supposed to protect Taliban's Afghanistan?
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy!
Ka?l wrote:
Attacking ad hominen won't make you right,
You're right. I shouldn't have compared you. Normally I'm willing to go the extra mile in puzzling out what someone is trying to say - but it had been a long day. My sincere apologies.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
no one would expect the French to help anyone.
AFAIK more than 30,000 french troops are overseas: in Lebanon, in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Ivory coast and many other places. I know, it's hard for you to go over your racist prejudices, but I would suggest you to get a little more info before making such statements that could only lead one to consider you as an imbecile.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
Ka?l wrote:
AFAIK more than 30,000 french troops are overseas: in Lebanon, in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Ivory coast and many other places.
It's 34,000, actually - however the greatest single deployment (7,000) is to the Carribean where they hunt drug smugglers. Only about 13,000 are involved in peace-keeping missions. Of those, only 700 French military and police observers, staff or support personnel are deployed in the Ivory Coast, Lebanon, Kosovo, Haiti, Western Sahara, the Sinai, Israel, Democratic Republic of Congo, Georgia, Liberia, the border between Eritrea and Ethiopia, Burundi, Bosnia Herzegovina, and the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia. On the other hand, France was an immediate and whole-hearted supported of Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan - sending combat troops in beginning in Dec, 2001. By now its forces are up to 1,800 in Afghanistan and working under the NATO banner. Source
Ka?l wrote:
I would suggest you to get a little more info before making such statements
Always a good idea. :)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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oilFactotum wrote:
I never have.
Your lies have reached the level of Ilion. What a pathetic achievement. Why don't you just admit you were wrong to have done so, and suggest we both get on with our lives?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Your lies have reached the level of Ilion. What a pathetic achievement.
Where are the smiley icons? I can't see any under that login. Is there a post in the thread where this is?
I've heard more said about less.
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Ka?l wrote:
Georgia was clearly warned that it would face Russian military forces if it engaged militarily against South Ossetia and/or Abkhazia. Russian reaction was no surprise.
You seem to think that I approve of, or am ignorant of, Georgia's invasion of Ossetia or that I think that the Russians did not have some justification for coming to the aid of the break away provinces. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Russians had sufficient justification to throw back, or eliminate the Georgian Invaders. Had they gone a few miles over the border to insure that there were not additional forces poised to attack, it would have been hard to argue they should not have done so. Patently, this is not what happened. Instead Russia deliberately attacked one civilian target after another, killing non-combatants, or worse, allowing their Ossetian "volunteers" to indulge in attrocities. For the life of me, I cannot understand why you approve of this behavior. Is it just because Georgia had aligned itself with the West in general and the US in particular?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Had they gone a few miles over the border to insure that there were not additional forces poised to attack, it would have been hard to argue they should not have done so.
Did they take Tbilissi? No. Did they take Batumi, where the oil pipeline arrive? No. In fact, the Russians just gone a few miles over the border. Gori is approx. 30 km away from Tskhinvali.
Oakman wrote:
Instead Russia deliberately attacked one civilian target after another, killing non-combatants, or worse
Any independent source?
Oakman wrote:
allowing their Ossetian "volunteers" to indulge in attrocities
That's a different point. These 'auxiliary troops' seem clearly to be there to 'punish' georgian people, looting and stealing, maybe killing. I'm amazed the action of these troops are not emphatized more by medias
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Sorry. For some reason that reply never hit my mailbox. I apologise. On the other hand, your answers were non-responsive and disingenuous. FYI. 1. The Security Meeting started around 1:30, not 11:00. 11:00 is when your Ambassador got out of a taxi. Amazingly enough the ambassadors of the other nations were not standing at attention awaiting his arrival. 2. The Security Council did not adjourn at 3:00, it took a break agreeing to continue the discussion later - Your Ambassador never indicated that Russian tanks were about to invade or that there was some sort of deadline being crossed. Instead he agreed to the break. 3. Russian tanks cannot cross the Urals in two hours. The T90-S has a flat paved-surface top speed of about 60kph. In mountainous terrain it can't do better than half that.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
2. The Security Council did not adjourn at 3:00, it took a break agreeing to continue the discussion later - Your Ambassador never indicated that Russian tanks were about to invade or that there was some sort of deadline being crossed. Instead he agreed to the break.
Ok, let's check the UN web site.[^] And what I see there: The meeting began at 1:15 a.m. and adjourned at 2 a.m. And here is what the Russian delegate said at the end of the meeting: Taking the floor for a second time, the Russian delegate expressed dismay at the absence of political will among Council members and their inability to have sent a clear signal in response to the events. So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
Oakman wrote:
Russian tanks cannot cross the Urals in two hours. The T90-S has a flat paved-surface top speed of about 60kph. In mountainous terrain it can't do better than half that.
Well, you might to be surprised, but there are Russian tanks not only beyond the Urals. The tanks that have entered South Ossetia are tanks of 58th Army[^] which is always dislocated in Caucasus very close to South Ossetia. So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
Regards, Nikolay
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Oakman wrote:
2. The Security Council did not adjourn at 3:00, it took a break agreeing to continue the discussion later - Your Ambassador never indicated that Russian tanks were about to invade or that there was some sort of deadline being crossed. Instead he agreed to the break.
Ok, let's check the UN web site.[^] And what I see there: The meeting began at 1:15 a.m. and adjourned at 2 a.m. And here is what the Russian delegate said at the end of the meeting: Taking the floor for a second time, the Russian delegate expressed dismay at the absence of political will among Council members and their inability to have sent a clear signal in response to the events. So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
Oakman wrote:
Russian tanks cannot cross the Urals in two hours. The T90-S has a flat paved-surface top speed of about 60kph. In mountainous terrain it can't do better than half that.
Well, you might to be surprised, but there are Russian tanks not only beyond the Urals. The tanks that have entered South Ossetia are tanks of 58th Army[^] which is always dislocated in Caucasus very close to South Ossetia. So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
You claimed it started at 11:00, it actually started after I said it did at 1:15, therefore: you are. (But I did get the stop time wrong.)
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
the Russian delegate expressed dismay at the absence of political will among Council members and their inability to have sent a clear signal in response to the events.
By which time the orders to invade Georgia had already been given. Do you really think that we in the west cannot tell time?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The tanks that have entered South Ossetia are tanks of 58th Army[^] which is always dislocated in Caucasus very close to South Ossetia.
The original discussion was about the tanks that entered Georgia. The time frame I have been using always assumes that they entered Ossetia even earlier. Switching the discussion to entering Ossetia suggests strongly that you know how badly wrong your original claims were.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
You are.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
That's something new for me.
Good then you learned something.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
There was no war between Russia and Georgia in 1992.
Then your comparison is false. Q.E.D.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
What a funny man you are
Another one who is amused by death. I guess I am at a disadvantage. Having been in combat, I don't find it funny.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Then your comparison is false. Q.E.D.
There is a huge gap in your logic.
Oakman wrote:
Another one who is amused by death. I guess I am at a disadvantage.
Am I amused by death? Sorry, but it looks like you have not felt irony in my words.
Regards, Nikolay
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
You claimed it started at 11:00, it actually started after I said it did at 1:15, therefore: you are. (But I did get the stop time wrong.)
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
the Russian delegate expressed dismay at the absence of political will among Council members and their inability to have sent a clear signal in response to the events.
By which time the orders to invade Georgia had already been given. Do you really think that we in the west cannot tell time?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The tanks that have entered South Ossetia are tanks of 58th Army[^] which is always dislocated in Caucasus very close to South Ossetia.
The original discussion was about the tanks that entered Georgia. The time frame I have been using always assumes that they entered Ossetia even earlier. Switching the discussion to entering Ossetia suggests strongly that you know how badly wrong your original claims were.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So, who is disingenuous and playing with facts, you or me?
You are.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
You claimed it started at 11:00, it actually started after I said it did at 1:15, therefore: you are. (But I did get the stop time wrong.)
It's much more important when and how it ended, than when it started.
Oakman wrote:
By which time the orders to invade Georgia had already been given. Do you really think that we in the west cannot tell time?
Please do me a favor, tell me. Please also provide the source of your knowledge.
Oakman wrote:
The original discussion was about the tanks that entered Georgia. The time frame I have been using always assumes that they entered Ossetia even earlier. Switching the discussion to entering Ossetia suggests strongly that you know how badly wrong your original claims were.
So the tanks that entered Georgia were different from those that entered South Ossestia? LOL. Oh, man, I've got tired argueing with you commenting on the crap that you are posting here.
Regards, Nikolay
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Oakman wrote:
Had they gone a few miles over the border to insure that there were not additional forces poised to attack, it would have been hard to argue they should not have done so.
Did they take Tbilissi? No. Did they take Batumi, where the oil pipeline arrive? No. In fact, the Russians just gone a few miles over the border. Gori is approx. 30 km away from Tskhinvali.
Oakman wrote:
Instead Russia deliberately attacked one civilian target after another, killing non-combatants, or worse
Any independent source?
Oakman wrote:
allowing their Ossetian "volunteers" to indulge in attrocities
That's a different point. These 'auxiliary troops' seem clearly to be there to 'punish' georgian people, looting and stealing, maybe killing. I'm amazed the action of these troops are not emphatized more by medias
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
No. In fact, the Russians just gone a few miles over the border. Gori is approx. 30 km away from Tskhinvali
30 km (18.5 mi) is not a few miles, it is quite a few miles. However Gori is simply the town that was totally looted by the Russians, not its deepest penetration, they advanced beyond it to Kaspi, approximately 25 miles from the Georgian capital. They also occupied the seacoast town of Poti, approximately 200 km from Tskhinvali.
Ka?l wrote:
Any independent source?
Human Rights Watch: "The Russian military has since used indiscriminate force in attacks in South Ossetia and in the Gori district, and has apparently targeted convoys of civilians attempting to flee the conflict zones. HRW said that ongoing looting, arson attacks, and abductions by militia are terrorizing the civilian population, forcing them to flee their homes and preventing displaced people from returning home." On August 15, HRW said it "had collected evidence of Russian warplanes using cluster bombs; the international rights group urged Russia to stop using the weapons, which 107 nations have agreed to outlaw. On the same day, Russian General Nogovitsyn claimed: 'We never use cluster bombs. There is no need to do so.' During the final strikes, an air-to-ground missile smashed into the Gori hospital with deadly effect."
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
You claimed it started at 11:00, it actually started after I said it did at 1:15, therefore: you are. (But I did get the stop time wrong.)
It's much more important when and how it ended, than when it started.
Oakman wrote:
By which time the orders to invade Georgia had already been given. Do you really think that we in the west cannot tell time?
Please do me a favor, tell me. Please also provide the source of your knowledge.
Oakman wrote:
The original discussion was about the tanks that entered Georgia. The time frame I have been using always assumes that they entered Ossetia even earlier. Switching the discussion to entering Ossetia suggests strongly that you know how badly wrong your original claims were.
So the tanks that entered Georgia were different from those that entered South Ossestia? LOL. Oh, man, I've got tired argueing with you commenting on the crap that you are posting here.
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So the tanks that entered Georgia were different from those that entered South Ossetia? LOL.
If I type real slowly maybe you will understand. It took time, a number of hours in fact, for the tanks to cross Ossetia. Since they entered Georgia (not Ossetia) in the dark hours of the morning, they had to have left Russian territory many hours earlier. Before the Security Council had adjourned for the evening.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Oh, man, I've got tired argueing with you commenting on the crap that you are posting here.
I was once asked to tutor a young Russian immigrant who was not doing well in school. Like you, the immigrant became frustrated whenever things did not go his way and he would announce that he considered the study of math/history/geography to be tiresome and crap. Although I got him through his first year of Highschool, I heard later that he'd dropped out. Too bad, but I guess if you don't want to learn, you won't.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
Then your comparison is false. Q.E.D.
There is a huge gap in your logic.
Oakman wrote:
Another one who is amused by death. I guess I am at a disadvantage.
Am I amused by death? Sorry, but it looks like you have not felt irony in my words.
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Sorry, but it looks like you have not felt irony in my words.
Oh, sorry. Over here, irony is a form of humor. Perhaps its something else over there. Take it up with your English teacher. If, on the other hand, you want to claim that you were making fun of me, take it up with Human Rights Watch Even the left wingers are sickened by the behavior of your troops.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
So the tanks that entered Georgia were different from those that entered South Ossetia? LOL.
If I type real slowly maybe you will understand. It took time, a number of hours in fact, for the tanks to cross Ossetia. Since they entered Georgia (not Ossetia) in the dark hours of the morning, they had to have left Russian territory many hours earlier. Before the Security Council had adjourned for the evening.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Oh, man, I've got tired argueing with you commenting on the crap that you are posting here.
I was once asked to tutor a young Russian immigrant who was not doing well in school. Like you, the immigrant became frustrated whenever things did not go his way and he would announce that he considered the study of math/history/geography to be tiresome and crap. Although I got him through his first year of Highschool, I heard later that he'd dropped out. Too bad, but I guess if you don't want to learn, you won't.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Who put the mess in your head? I would recommend you to take a map of South Ossetia and study it carefully. The only way South Ossetia is connected with Russia (North Ossetia to be precise) is Roki tunnel. It takes approx one hour to pass it. When Russian troops passed Roki tunnel they had first to force Georgians out of South Ossetia, so that they could move further on to Georgia. Have you finally got it???
Regards, Nikolay
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Ka?l wrote:
No. In fact, the Russians just gone a few miles over the border. Gori is approx. 30 km away from Tskhinvali
30 km (18.5 mi) is not a few miles, it is quite a few miles. However Gori is simply the town that was totally looted by the Russians, not its deepest penetration, they advanced beyond it to Kaspi, approximately 25 miles from the Georgian capital. They also occupied the seacoast town of Poti, approximately 200 km from Tskhinvali.
Ka?l wrote:
Any independent source?
Human Rights Watch: "The Russian military has since used indiscriminate force in attacks in South Ossetia and in the Gori district, and has apparently targeted convoys of civilians attempting to flee the conflict zones. HRW said that ongoing looting, arson attacks, and abductions by militia are terrorizing the civilian population, forcing them to flee their homes and preventing displaced people from returning home." On August 15, HRW said it "had collected evidence of Russian warplanes using cluster bombs; the international rights group urged Russia to stop using the weapons, which 107 nations have agreed to outlaw. On the same day, Russian General Nogovitsyn claimed: 'We never use cluster bombs. There is no need to do so.' During the final strikes, an air-to-ground missile smashed into the Gori hospital with deadly effect."
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
FYI: Gori is 26 km away from Tskhinvali and 20 km away from Georgia-South Ossetia border. Gori was used as a primary base by Georgian forces that attacked South Ossetia.
Regards, Nikolay
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Sorry, but it looks like you have not felt irony in my words.
Oh, sorry. Over here, irony is a form of humor. Perhaps its something else over there. Take it up with your English teacher. If, on the other hand, you want to claim that you were making fun of me, take it up with Human Rights Watch Even the left wingers are sickened by the behavior of your troops.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
The funny thing is that your can learn more about the behavior of your troops[^] in Iraq from the same source. This link[^] is also worth reading. Have I heard from you that your troops were greeted everywhere in Iraq?
Regards, Nikolay
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Who put the mess in your head? I would recommend you to take a map of South Ossetia and study it carefully. The only way South Ossetia is connected with Russia (North Ossetia to be precise) is Roki tunnel. It takes approx one hour to pass it. When Russian troops passed Roki tunnel they had first to force Georgians out of South Ossetia, so that they could move further on to Georgia. Have you finally got it???
Regards, Nikolay
What in God's name are you blathering about? Entering South Ossetia is something that happens before - not simultanoeusly with entering Georgia. Your confusion of what border you should be talking about is either ignorance or confusion or something your read in Pravda.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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The funny thing is that your can learn more about the behavior of your troops[^] in Iraq from the same source. This link[^] is also worth reading. Have I heard from you that your troops were greeted everywhere in Iraq?
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The funny thing is that your can learn more about the behavior of your troops
Again you seem to find the raping and execution of civilians to be "funny." I note that you suddenly seem to have stopped trying to defend the behavior of your troops and are eager to discuss problems that existed five years ago. Shall we also talk about what the Spetsnaz did in Chechnya?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Have I heard from you that your troops were greeted everywhere in Iraq?
Perhaps your government didn't allow you to watch the films and videos of Baghdad civilians celebrating their liberation. However, I assure you that all over the free world, we saw them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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FYI: Gori is 26 km away from Tskhinvali and 20 km away from Georgia-South Ossetia border. Gori was used as a primary base by Georgian forces that attacked South Ossetia.
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Gori is 26 km away from Tskhinvali and 20 km away from Georgia-South Ossetia border
I imagine the 30 km figure Ka used took into account the twists and turns in the road.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Gori was used as a primary base by Georgian forces that attacked South Ossetia.
No. The military base near Gori was used as a staging area. The town of Gori was unarmed. Its civilians were raped and murdered by your troops. They fired on unarmed civilian convoys heading south.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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What in God's name are you blathering about? Entering South Ossetia is something that happens before - not simultanoeusly with entering Georgia. Your confusion of what border you should be talking about is either ignorance or confusion or something your read in Pravda.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I would strongly recommend you to turn your brain ON, if you have one. The Russian forces entered South Ossetia on the morning of August 8, and extended their offensive into Georgia proper on Monday, August 11. The Security Council meeting ended at 2:00 a.m. on August 8, as we know. I would very appreciate if you could provide me with a link to the source where it is said that this timeline is false. Thank you in advance.
Regards, Nikolay
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The funny thing is that your can learn more about the behavior of your troops
Again you seem to find the raping and execution of civilians to be "funny." I note that you suddenly seem to have stopped trying to defend the behavior of your troops and are eager to discuss problems that existed five years ago. Shall we also talk about what the Spetsnaz did in Chechnya?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Have I heard from you that your troops were greeted everywhere in Iraq?
Perhaps your government didn't allow you to watch the films and videos of Baghdad civilians celebrating their liberation. However, I assure you that all over the free world, we saw them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Again you seem to find the raping and execution of civilians to be "funny." I note that you suddenly seem to have stopped trying to defend the behavior of your troops and are eager to discuss problems that existed five years ago. Shall we also talk about what the Spetsnaz did in Chechnya?
Look, I'm not sure if you are really a clinical idiot or just pretending to be one. Nevertheless, I will try to explain you my point for the last time. So, please, please, stretch you brain! The brain is an amazing thing, believe me. In every military conflict (Vietnam, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Afganistan, Georgia etc.) there were innocent victims among civilians. In every military conflict, I emphasize this. And I'm pretty sure that we can find bastards who were doing war crimes in every army in the world. That's why I have provided you with a few links about the behavior of some of Americans in Iraq. And it would not be hard to find another dozen of links, if you wish. But that does not mean that we have to blame whole army for it. Is it clear? So why the hell you expect the Russian army to be more holy than the American one?
Oakman wrote:
Perhaps your government didn't allow you to watch the films and videos of Baghdad civilians celebrating their liberation. However, I assure you that all over the free world, we saw them.
Ok. I would recommend you to come to Baghdad so that you could have a chance to be greeted by Iraqies in person. But don't forget your flak jacket and M16! I will pray for you. :)
Regards, Nikolay
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I would strongly recommend you to turn your brain ON, if you have one. The Russian forces entered South Ossetia on the morning of August 8, and extended their offensive into Georgia proper on Monday, August 11. The Security Council meeting ended at 2:00 a.m. on August 8, as we know. I would very appreciate if you could provide me with a link to the source where it is said that this timeline is false. Thank you in advance.
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
I would strongly recommend you to turn your brain ON, if you have one.
What a little yappie dog you are. You are lying. Your country is lying. You still haven't pulled out. Sarkozy is a fool because he trusts you. Goodbye.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface