Good Old Professor Dawkins [modified]
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A Jew who was attacked ceaselessly for challanging the religiousity and redundant practices of his society. Read your New Testament.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
A Jew who was attacked ceaselessly for challanging the religiousity and redundant practices of his society.
No he wasn't. A large part of the populace welcomed his teachings - as a Jew. Even the most pro-Roman of the Gospels do not imply that he was attacked ceaselessly by the Jews.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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73Zeppelin wrote:
you don't invoke invisible objects and then argue they exist as truth until your opponent disproves them.
You're right I don't. There is no matter or concept of disproving God less even than of disproving yourself.
73Zeppelin wrote:
That's idiocy.
Your opinion. I'll takes God's opinion over yours, and mine for that matter, any day. He after all does have all the authority.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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73Zeppelin wrote:
That's exactly right.
And people who said 'there is no exoplanet' were wrong, and they were wrong even before the first exoplanet was discovered - unless you pretend their discovery by human beings made them suddenly appear in the Universe?
73Zeppelin wrote:
then I proclaim that 'god' is a false idol and those that worship him are idolators who refuse to rightly recognize the true and divine authority of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the One and True Lord Thy God. Afterall, we know spaghetti exists so He must exist as well. This then, is an absolute and viable truth until you can disprove it. I also claim that all spaghetti strands are sentient and intelligent but are just laying dormant until Judgement Day when those that have eaten them shall be rightly and visciously judged before The Almighty. Please note that I am under no obligation to prove this fundamental truth - you must disprove it
No, I must not. Because I don't claim, I won't claim you are wrong. Your beliefs are yours, you are entitled to have them. Maybe you're right, maybe not. I believe you are not, but I respect your faith.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
KaЯl wrote:
No, I must not. Because I don't claim, I won't claim you are wrong. Your beliefs are yours, you are entitled to have them. Maybe you're right, maybe not. I believe you are not, but I respect your faith.
I understand that, but the problem with that position is that it is implicit that your belief is right and true and the beliefs of the Hindus, Muslims, Bhuddists, Native Americans, etc... is completely wrong. And that's why religion can be dangerous - it can breed hate, disrespect, friction and extremism. This is precisely why I disagree with allowing religious ideology to dictate state-based morality and codes of law.
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank."
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
A Jew who was attacked ceaselessly for challanging the religiousity and redundant practices of his society.
No he wasn't. A large part of the populace welcomed his teachings - as a Jew. Even the most pro-Roman of the Gospels do not imply that he was attacked ceaselessly by the Jews.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Please, the Pharaseas, the guardians of Jewish customs, practices and religeous laws, looked for every oppotunity to trap him, trip him up, kill him, as soon as his popularity amongst those they condemned as outcasts and sinners, mostly for being poor, became a threat to them. They accused him of breaking the sabbath, they famously accused him of blasphemy in front of the High Priest. You really are an odd fish for someone who claims to know his bible so much better then me.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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A Jew who was attacked ceaselessly for challanging the religiousity and redundant practices of his society. Read your New Testament.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
What's that got to do with it - you asked for what religious practices he was bound by. Since he was a Jew, he was bound by many - included but not limited to observance of the Sabbath, not eating unclean foods etc....
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I'll takes God's opinion over yours,
Does He talk to you, Matthew? Does He tell you to embarrass Him by prattling on like this, or is it your own idea?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Does He talk to you, Matthew?
Yes.
Oakman wrote:
Does He tell you to embarrass Him by prattling on like this
If you know he's embarrassed then he clearly talks to you. Or maybe someone else does because he's always rather keen on spreading the good news when he talks to me.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Baptism? Walking on water?
yes, and water into wine.
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain
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What's that got to do with it - you asked for what religious practices he was bound by. Since he was a Jew, he was bound by many - included but not limited to observance of the Sabbath, not eating unclean foods etc....
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
My point, and his, was that he was not bound by them. He came to fulfill them. Huge chunks of the New Testament are specifically about this. To claim Christians as being bound by religious practice is as much as to say they aren't very good Christians, or they aren't very Christian. We had a little argument about this a few hundred years ago. You may have heard about it. It was called the Reformation.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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You can't worm out of it by shifting away from gods to other mythical beings. Your "unprovable" disbelief in other gods is the same "unprovable" disbelief that atheists have for your god.
No, there was no worming or shifting, we simply do not accept their definitions of God any more than you accept ours, this does not means that we stop believing in the existence of football because it is a god to some people, do you?
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Dalek Dave wrote:
It is enough to believe that a garden is beautiful, without believing there are fairies at the bottom of it!
Y'know, you're funnier when you come home drunk and post gibberish
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
You know, I didn't think this would go so deep or so far, and I think you may be right about the gibberish, at least people just think "Uh-Oh, Dave's been at the sauce again". Memo to self...Go get a few beers down you !
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Jesus healed Lazarus using supernatural powers
How do you know that? Were you there? Did you at least read the Greek version of the New Testament? Or are you relying on what you saw in a movie once?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
How do you know that? Were you there?
Yeah.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
What is it about religion that completely shreds people's ability to think clearly
What is it about being 14 that makes one so sure he knows every about everything?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I hate you.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The historical fact of the ressurection of Jesus Christ from the dead
You have entirely the wrong word here, 'Fact' does not mean 'Single Source from work of fiction'
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain
We all have much to learn it seems: As MS like to say 'START HERE'. :) [^]
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The historical fact of the ressurection of Jesus Christ from the dead is the full and final proof.
Codswallop - utter, unabashed, unadulterated codswallop....what a tool...
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
And I suppose you'd like to provide, evidence, backup, reasoning or even grammar for that opinion. I can only warn you otherwise that there are many here who demand proof entirely on their own thoroughly ridiculous terms of every opinion they disagree with. So you'd better hope they all agree with you or expect to get flamed. :laugh:
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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It is impossible to prove a negative. And since atheists do not require a god to explain the universe, they merely observe and learn, they do not require a god to be believed in. Only people who lack the ability to think for themselves need a god to do the explaining for them. It is enough to believe that a garden is beautiful, without believing there are fairies at the bottom of it!
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain
None of what you say is incorrect, however, you did not answer Karl's quite reasonable question. You object to the the word "probably" in the statement "there is probably no God". This suggests that you are certain of that conclusion, so it is reasonable to inquire how you arrived at it. The the first answer you gave suggests that you merely believe that there is no God, which puts you in exactly the same position as those who merely believe that there is. The remaining two statements are not answers at all, but instead an ad-hominem attack on the questioner, which demeans you and your position.
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You have already proved yourself wrong by claiming knowledge that you cannot have. No further proof or in fact other proof can be obtained. It is impossible to KNOW for certain what is not true.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
You have already proved yourself wrong by claiming knowledge that you cannot have. No further proof or in fact other proof can be obtained. It is impossible to KNOW for certain what is not true.
How does this change when you substitute the word 'God' with Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns, Mermaids, Dragons, etc. Until there's evidence of any of these beings, isn't it correct to say that we know that they don't exist nor have they ever existed? There are plenty of books (hundreds of years old even) that mention their existence -- yet we know they don't exist. There may even be people who claim to have felt their presence -- yet we know they don't exist. But God somehow doesn't subscribe to this logic. Is it because of his awesome magical powers? Or because there are lots of regular folks who claim to believe in him? Or because of the age of the Bible? Perhaps it's just fear of the unknown -- the afterlife. What compels you?
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
You have already proved yourself wrong by claiming knowledge that you cannot have. No further proof or in fact other proof can be obtained. It is impossible to KNOW for certain what is not true.
How does this change when you substitute the word 'God' with Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns, Mermaids, Dragons, etc. Until there's evidence of any of these beings, isn't it correct to say that we know that they don't exist nor have they ever existed? There are plenty of books (hundreds of years old even) that mention their existence -- yet we know they don't exist. There may even be people who claim to have felt their presence -- yet we know they don't exist. But God somehow doesn't subscribe to this logic. Is it because of his awesome magical powers? Or because there are lots of regular folks who claim to believe in him? Or because of the age of the Bible? Perhaps it's just fear of the unknown -- the afterlife. What compels you?
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
Al Beback wrote:
What compels you?
"The power of Christ compels you!" :laugh:
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank."
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Ka?l wrote:
Can you prove there is no God or is it just a belief?
That's a non-argument. The onus of proof isn't on those who don't believe, it's on those that do. If you want to invoke the concept of 'god', then it's up to you to prove his existence, it's not up to others to demonstrate his non-existence.
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank."
I don't think Karl was making an argument, but rather asking a perfectly valid question raised by Dave's discomfort with the lack of certainty created by the word "probably" in the statement to be placed on the buses. That discomfort suggests the Dave is certain, and if so, it is fair to ask how he arrives at that certainty.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
You have already proved yourself wrong by claiming knowledge that you cannot have. No further proof or in fact other proof can be obtained. It is impossible to KNOW for certain what is not true.
How does this change when you substitute the word 'God' with Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns, Mermaids, Dragons, etc. Until there's evidence of any of these beings, isn't it correct to say that we know that they don't exist nor have they ever existed? There are plenty of books (hundreds of years old even) that mention their existence -- yet we know they don't exist. There may even be people who claim to have felt their presence -- yet we know they don't exist. But God somehow doesn't subscribe to this logic. Is it because of his awesome magical powers? Or because there are lots of regular folks who claim to believe in him? Or because of the age of the Bible? Perhaps it's just fear of the unknown -- the afterlife. What compels you?
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
Al Beback wrote:
isn't it correct to say that we know that they don't exist nor have they ever existed?
Indeed it is correct because we made them up, rather than them making us up as in the case of God. When Ravel's bed goblin (see other part of this thread) turns to him and says, you don't exist then Ravel will know one of two things for sure. Either he's a deity or he's quite mad. If you want evidence for the existence of God, look in the mirror, not because you are God but because you are made in the image of God and you are fearfully and wonderfully made.
Al Beback wrote:
What compels you?
The spirit of God and until you have been so compelled it is impossible to comprehend what that is like.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Al Beback wrote:
What compels you?
"The power of Christ compels you!" :laugh:
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank."
:-D :cool::rose:Hurrah! Zep has scored a direct hit! Well done old chap you hit the nail on the head. :-D
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)